Workshop heating.

kadman · 11-01-2021 1:41pm #1

AS the title says workshop heating.

What do you guys have. At the moment I have an old small stove,
thats not really doing the job for my large workshop.

Its about 40'x30'. I am looking for an option thats cheap enough to run.
I am considering a diesel/ kerosene heater, but not sure on its running costs.

So I would appreciate your input lads and lassies.:)

Thankyou,
K.

magicbastarder · 11-01-2021 1:45pm

nothing. i have a bare roof too (felt on WBP, bare joists underneath), so the first thing i need to do is get some cheap foam insulation and friction fit it.
tiny shed compared to yours though, i think 13'x6'.

kadman · 11-01-2021 2:17pm

My shed is 6"block uninsulated, and the roof is corrugated sheeting.

Not badly sealed around, but could be better.

I just priced a multi solid fuel stove from UK,2k plus the vat and 400 euro delivery,

and god only knows what tax and customs I could be hit with on arrival. So thats a non runner.

magicbastarder · 11-01-2021 2:42pm

i've seen (in youtube videos!) stoves which run on the shavings for the workshop floor, but they're going to be specialist and not cheap, i suspect.

An Ri rua · 11-01-2021 2:46pm

Would you not build yourself a DIY Masonry heater or a rocket mass heater? Would be well within your capabilities I'd imagine.
Along with a bit of insulation, it would be the common-sense way to heat your space.

I experimented with using storage heater bricks to soak up the heat of an open fire and it was impressive.
You could try storage heater bricks all around that stove, would be s cheap upgrade for now. But really, a rocket mass heater together with cob or masonry bricks would be a good job.

I use paraffin heaters for the past 10 years. You can run them quite cheaply on Kero. But thats is fumier than using paraffin/ROLF. Currently, I use Tozane (ROLF) in a home office large caravan. I wouldn't use kero in this situation but have done so in a large well ventilated room.

kil · 11-01-2021 2:47pm

How about this:
https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Boru-Craftsman-Workshop-Stove-1774233

An Ri rua · 11-01-2021 2:55pm

kil wrote: »

How about this:
https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Boru-Craftsman-Workshop-Stove-1774233

That looks excellent for a VAT inclusive job from a top brand. Good spot!

kil · 11-01-2021 2:57pm

An Ri rua wrote: »

That looks excellent for a VAT inclusive job from a top brand. Good spot!

All I'm missing is a workshop to put it into :mad:

Calahonda52 · 11-01-2021 3:35pm

Whatever u use should not increase the vapour load in the garage ... you know this anyway so

40 by 30 is a small house, am assuming the apex is two storey so best to think about insulation and infrared heating.
Get good boots if the floor is cold and some decent thermal clothing

Say, in meters, 11 by 9 by 3 high
so wall area is 120m2
say roof area is another 100
so (220 area by 2.0 U value by 14 delta T) = 6,160 W design load plus same again for ventilation losses so about design heat load is about 12,000 watts or 120W/m2 of floor area

kadman · 11-01-2021 4:52pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Whatever u use should not increase the vapour load in the garage ... you know this anyway so

40 by 30 is a small house, am assuming the apex is two storey so best to think about insulation and infrared heating.
Get good boots if the floor is cold and some decent thermal clothing

Say, in meters, 11 by 9 by 3 high
so wall area is 120m2
say roof area is another 100
so (220 area by 2.0 U value by 14 delta T) = 6,160 W design load plus same again for ventilation losses so about design heat load is about 12,000 watts or 120W/m2 of floor area

Never considered infra red heating to be honest. Looks like google will be busy later this evening:)

How cost effective is infra red heating. Insulation is gonna be a headache due to the fact of all the machinery and car classics in the place. Have to go overkill on the heater to accommodate for this if i have to..

All in all a diesel space heater would be the quickest and mobile to boot. But I want to check the running costs first.

I have seen some garage portable 3kw fan heaters, but not sure of the running costs yet, so will check that out.

Thanks for the input chaps

magicbastarder · 11-01-2021 6:10pm

kadman wrote: »

I have seen some garage portable 3kw fan heaters, but not sure of the running costs yet, so will check that out.

i'd assume 60c or thereabouts per hour?

Calahonda52 · 11-01-2021 6:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd assume 60c or thereabouts per hour?

Yep that about right.
I would be concerned more about the loss of warm air than insulation.
One of my clients has gas fired radiant tube IR heating in a 5 bay garage, the doors are open most of the time.

monkeynuz · 12-01-2021 11:38am

kil wrote: »

How about this:
https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Boru-Craftsman-Workshop-Stove-1774233

I was actually about to link the same one, I saw it recently and wondered about it for myself although you need to consider the added cost of flue etc which can more than double the cost of the stove.

For now I’ve just bought a fan heater for my smallish workshop as I’m not in there much at the moment, I often wondered about contacting plumbers in the area for an outdated boiler being replaced and just adding some radiators.

kadman · 12-01-2021 11:57am

monkeynuz wrote: »

I was actually about to link the same one, I saw it recently and wondered about it for myself although you need to consider the added cost of flue etc which can more than double the cost of the stove.

For now I’ve just bought a fan heater for my smallish workshop as I’m not in there much at the moment, I often wondered about contacting plumbers in the area for an outdated boiler being replaced and just adding some radiators.

I had a look at that link yesterday. But size wise its relatively small, just over 2 feet tall. So I doubt that will heat my requirements.

I have so many ideas from you guys that I am on google overload at the moment.:)

kadman · 12-01-2021 11:59am

I could go the boiler route and just do a domestic central heating setup
same as my own house. But I really dont want that level of work if there is a more reasonable option.

Testacalda · 12-01-2021 12:04pm

kadman wrote: »

I am considering a diesel/ kerosene heater, but not sure on its running costs

I have a 50,000 BTU Diesel heater, Running it on Kero bought from the pump at 76c per litre, it burns 0.9 litres per hour, so not that costly really.

I only use it a few hours at a time to blow heat where I'm working. My garage is uninsulated also, so obviously a waste of energy trying to heat it.
Only thing is it may not be great for a woodworking workshop. Fumes from it not noticeable in my garage, but it's not for enclosed use

Can't say I was cold in there last week though. Overalls, latex gloves and a decent jacket helps a lot. The gloves make a huge difference, even though you wouldn't think it.

https://www.craigmoreonline.ie/sip-09560-fireball-50xd-space-heater-diesel

Calahonda52 · 12-01-2021 12:58pm

the problem is excess moisture from the combustion as well as the fumes, the excess moisture will condense on tools etc ......

kadman · 12-01-2021 1:02pm

Testacalda wrote: »

I have a 50,000 BTU Diesel heater, Running it on Kero bought from the pump at 76c per litre, it burns 0.9 litres per hour, so not that costly really.

I only use it a few hours at a time to blow heat where I'm working. My garage is uninsulated also, so obviously a waste of energy trying to heat it.
Only thing is it may not be great for a woodworking workshop. Fumes from it not noticeable in my garage, but it's not for enclosed use

Can't say I was cold in there last week though. Overalls, latex gloves and a decent jacket helps a lot. The gloves make a huge difference, even though you wouldn't think it.

https://www.craigmoreonline.ie/sip-09560-fireball-50xd-space-heater-diesel

Bit surprised its not recommended for enclosed use, yet listed for garages, workshops, ect.

Are the fumes noticeable at all, or is it the carbon monoxide thats the issue for enclosed areas, Thanks,

K.

An Ri rua · 12-01-2021 1:21pm

kadman wrote: »

Bit surprised its not recommended for enclosed use, yet listed for garages, workshops, ect.

Are the fumes noticeable at all, or is it the carbon monoxide thats the issue for enclosed areas, Thanks,

K.

Carbon monoxide is an issue no matter what combustible is used. There is no difference, that I'm aware of between burning paraffin or kerosene in an enclosed space. Apart from the sulphurous smell from kero. Which is marginal if you add Dipetane.
Fuel burned incorrectly, eg diesel in a kero burner or vice versa, would be dangerous as the jets need to be optimised for either.

I use 2 CO detectors with my paraffin Inverter heater. One inbuilt, one portable. An inverter is direct injection evaporation so good kero gets burned optimally.

An Ri rua · 12-01-2021 1:25pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

the problem is excess moisture from the combustion as well as the fumes, the excess moisture will condense on tools etc ......

Gas certainly creates moisture but I haven't found that to be so with rolf paraffin, in all of my years using it. That includes using air moisture meters and also damp meters in a caravan office. Although I used to use the paraffin heater in tandem with either electric or an Ecograte (convected dry air) so that likely nullified the moisture issue.
Do you think paraffin also can create moisture issues? Thanks.

Testacalda · 12-01-2021 2:46pm

kadman wrote: »

Are the fumes noticeable at all

No, you get a bit of that TVO smell on first switching it on but that's it. no issue with fumes at all. My garage is 47 x 30.

Calahonda52 · 12-01-2021 10:32pm

An Ri rua wrote: »

Gas certainly creates moisture but I haven't found that to be so with rolf paraffin, in all of my years using it. That includes using air moisture meters and also damp meters in a caravan office. Although I used to use the paraffin heater in tandem with either electric or an Ecograte (convected dry air) so that likely nullified the moisture issue.
Do you think paraffin also can create moisture issues? Thanks.

You cant deny the science of an exothermic reaction

Any fuel +oxygen = carbon dioxide and water in the form of water vapour
Dirty paraffin will give out SOx and NOx and if the burn is not perfect CO as well as CO2

magicbastarder · 12-01-2021 10:40pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

You cant deny the science of an exothermic reaction

Any fuel +oxygen = carbon dioxide and water in the form of water vapour

not *any* fuel though? with hydrocarbons, yes, but with coal there's no H to form water.

and much less H in the likes of wood than there is in diesel.

gctest50 · 12-01-2021 10:44pm

Indirect space heaters are available, leaves the exhaust fumes outside

https://www.crosshireservices.ie/product/red-star-30-oil-fired-indirect-heater/

kadman · 12-01-2021 10:56pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Indirect space heaters are available, leaves the exhaust fumes outside

https://www.crosshireservices.ie/product/red-star-30-oil-fired-indirect-heater/

Good, but I cant help thinking 2.7 litres an hour would be an expensive option.

gctest50 · 12-01-2021 11:10pm

kadman wrote: »

Good, but I cant help thinking 2.7 litres an hour would be an expensive option.

That one ia about 30kW though

You should find smaller ones if you nose around

https://www.heatersuk.com/kroll-mak15-14-5kw-52-000btu-230v-oil-fired-indirect-space-heater.html

gctest50 · 12-01-2021 11:16pm

Or you could get one of these and connect to it to an ordinary boiler :

https://www.donedeal.ie/heating-for-sale/high-output-fan-heater-commercial-volume/23842248

kadman · 13-01-2021 12:54am

gctest50 wrote: »

Or you could get one of these and connect to it to an ordinary boiler :

https://www.donedeal.ie/heating-for-sale/high-output-fan-heater-commercial-volume/23842248

I saw them before and i think its a great bit of kit. Its an option, I could put a flue boiler on my existing workshop stove and run that from it.

An Ri rua · 13-01-2021 1:14am

Calahonda52 wrote: »

You cant deny the science of an exothermic reaction

Any fuel +oxygen = carbon dioxide and water in the form of water vapour
Dirty paraffin will give out SOx and NOx and if the burn is not perfect CO as well as CO2

Far be it from me to deny the science of an exothermic reaction. We were raised not to.

Who buys or burns dirty paraffin though? I use Rolf or else kero treated with Dipetane. Combined with a secondary dry heat source, eh electric or convected wood burner, moisture was a non issue. No exothermic reactions were harmed or caused in making this statement.

jeepers101 · 13-01-2021 6:48am

I have an air to air heat pump. It’s the job, heats the place up very quickly and is efficient. Also have the option to cool if it’s one of the four days in the year it’s needed.

The units themselves aren’t hugely expensive (start around €400) but professional installation can cost three times that. It would be better if you know someone in the air conditioning trade to either do it for you or lend you the tools.

kadman · 13-01-2021 9:50am

For an air to heat pump I would have to install a wet central heating system in my shed would i not??

kadman · 13-01-2021 10:00am

An Ri rua wrote: »

Would you not build yourself a DIY Masonry heater or a rocket mass heater? Would be well within your capabilities I'd imagine.
Along with a bit of insulation, it would be the common-sense way to heat your space.

I experimented with using storage heater bricks to soak up the heat of an open fire and it was impressive.
You could try storage heater bricks all around that stove, would be s cheap upgrade for now. But really, a rocket mass heater together with cob or masonry bricks would be a good job.

I use paraffin heaters for the past 10 years. You can run them quite cheaply on Kero. But thats is fumier than using paraffin/ROLF. Currently, I use Tozane (ROLF) in a home office large caravan. I wouldn't use kero in this situation but have done so in a large well ventilated room.

I have to admit I am currently looking at some vids on this and its construction methods. I confess I am impressed and drawn towards it as a heating source for my workshop. I will give it strong consideration, as i dont think its too labour intensive, and seems to have excellent outcomes.

magicbastarder · 13-01-2021 10:05am

just build a fulacht fia in the middle of the workshop. heating *and* food.

deegs · 13-01-2021 10:05am

Left of field... But I got an old Bitcoin miner. It's noisy but I earn close to the cost of electricity and it heats up my 24sqm workshop in no time. I also have a load of old oil and do plan to make a rocket stove at some point. But the comment on vapour is something I had previously considered.

chillyspoon · 13-01-2021 2:16pm

deegs wrote: »

Left of field... But I got an old Bitcoin miner. It's noisy but I earn close to the cost of electricity and it heats up my 24sqm workshop in no time. I also have a load of old oil and do plan to make a rocket stove at some point. But the comment on vapour is something I had previously considered.

One of the most unusual approaches to workshop heating that I've heard - I love it!

I've got a few old PCs around, so I guess I could set up a really inefficient mining farm and try something similar but in my case there's no way I could get close to covering the costs with the level of processing power available!!

BullBauld · 13-01-2021 6:16pm

I got this for my shed, does the job great when needed.

JimmyVik · 13-01-2021 6:25pm

jeepers101 wrote: »

I have an air to air heat pump. It’s the job, heats the place up very quickly and is efficient. Also have the option to cool if it’s one of the four days in the year it’s needed.

The units themselves aren’t hugely expensive (start around €400) but professional installation can cost three times that. It would be better if you know someone in the air conditioning trade to either do it for you or lend you the tools.

I got one of them too.
Installed it ourselves.
2 x 6 inch holes in the wall and bobs yer uncle.
Works like a freezer in reverse. It draws heat from the air outside. PAsses the air inside over the radiarot fin type thing inside and blows it out hot.
Dont put your hand near the cold exiting air outside unless you want frostbite

Make sure you buy one that is powerful enough for your space though.
And like you said. The couple of days you need it in the summer it reverses to aircon at the touch of a button.

I also have a heated gillet that i wear when its very cold outside. Maybe one of those would help til you get your heating sorted.
Now i need heated socks

JimmyVik · 13-01-2021 6:30pm

kadman wrote: »

For an air to heat pump I would have to install a wet central heating system in my shed would i not??

No. Air to air. Think aircon on the continent, but in reverse.

Calahonda52 · 13-01-2021 9:32pm

kadman wrote: »

For an air to heat pump I would have to install a wet central heating system in my shed would i not??

Sticking with this concept, have you access to a stream, lake, slurry pit, for a water to air HP

kadman · 13-01-2021 9:38pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Sticking with this concept, have you access to a stream, lake, slurry pit, for a water to air HP

No I have not. I have a 320' bored well.....any use??

Not savvy on water to air heat pump at all. Too busy looking at rocket mass heaters at the moment.

Calahonda52 · 14-01-2021 9:12am

kadman wrote: »

No I have not. I have a 320' bored well.....any use??

Not savvy on water to air heat pump at all. Too busy looking at rocket mass heaters at the moment.

So taking on Space X etc!:D

Anyway W2A is a bit pricey but very effective as the water stays more or less at the same temp all year, where as the A2A suffers from what we had last week and lower conductivity.
Come back if you need more

the_pen_turner · 14-01-2021 11:11am

Calahonda52 wrote: »

So taking on Space X etc!:D

Anyway W2A is a bit pricey but very effective as the water stays more or less at the same temp all year, where as the A2A suffers from what we had last week and lower conductivity.
Come back if you need more

Would it suite a workshop though. I would assume that it's small increase in temp over a long time gets the space hot . Would it be expensive to run ina draughty and pearly insulated shed.

Calahonda52 · 14-01-2021 12:49pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Would it suite a workshop though. 1: I would assume that it's small increase in temp over a long time gets the space hot .2: Would it be expensive to run ina draughty and pearly insulated shed.

1 & 2, not really and yes, which is why the IR option is better, either from wet rads at ceiling level or the radiant elec or gas tubes at ceiling level

hargo · 14-01-2021 9:01pm

Don't know if you got sorted Kadman but Bohills in Drogheda do reconditioned stoves very reasonable.. I was looking at a very nice one there just before Christmas for €200. Might be worth a call.

bamayang · 15-01-2021 12:52pm

BullBauld wrote: »

I got this for my shed, does the job great when needed.

I have an old handy size stove at home that has no use for the house. Was thinking about putting it into the workshop instead. Its 7M x 5M, 50mm kingspan insulated.

Is there any risk of introducing moisture (earlier mentioned in thread).
Also, is there any carbon diox risk, assuming it will have a flue out through the wall.

Appreciate any replies, as I dont know anything about this stuff.

kadman · 15-01-2021 2:38pm

jeepers101 wrote: »

I have an air to air heat pump. It’s the job, heats the place up very quickly and is efficient. Also have the option to cool if it’s one of the four days in the year it’s needed.

The units themselves aren’t hugely expensive (start around €400) but professional installation can cost three times that. It would be better if you know someone in the air conditioning trade to either do it for you or lend you the tools.

Can you post a link to the model you have, thanks,

K.

jeepers101 · 15-01-2021 8:44pm

kadman wrote: »

Can you post a link to the model you have, thanks,

K.

Outdoor Model:http://www.toshiba-calc.co.uk/ahu/images/pdfs/RAV-SM803ATE.pdf

Indoor model: http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/toshiba/ravsm802xte.html

Its close to 8 years old now so newer ones will be even more efficient. Also have a 2.5kw LG wall mounted unit installed in the house nearly 5 years. Both going as well as the day they were installed.

_Brian · 15-01-2021 8:48pm

How about a diesel heater like used in Motorhome a and trucks.

I’ve seen people use them for workshops.

Like this.
Air Diesel Heater, 5KW 12V Parking Vehicle Heater Set For Car Truck Bus, Trucks,RV, Motorhome Trailer, Trucks, Boats https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07XNYWSDJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabc_6hFaGbXQEEJE3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Aidan Harney · 22-01-2021 4:08pm

Not sure how good our bad this would be at meeting anyone's individual requirements, but aldi have an Easy Home Mini Oil Filled Radiator for just under 17euro....

https://www.aldi.ie/easy-home-mini-oil-filled-radiator/p/802241398190600

kadman · 22-01-2021 11:40pm

My son just bought 2 1500w dimplex ones last week. 60 euro a pop.
He said they were crap.

I insulated between the rafters of his workshop then with 50mm high density EPS.

Before the insulation he had them going all day and could not heat his area.

After the insulation, you would be overwhelmed with the heat, that now reach the temp and turn off.

Cheap form of small area heat, providing you have the workshop well insulated

tabby aspreme · 10-02-2021 7:47pm

kil wrote: »

How about this:
https://www.coopsuperstores.ie/Boru-Craftsman-Workshop-Stove-1774233

Was in a place today using one of these, it works well, but they lined the lower half of it with firebrick, to protect the steel, as a previous one got too hot and buckled.

Workshop heating.

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