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Non copper heating elements

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  • 18-02-2019 12:30pm
    #1
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭


    We're looking at replacing our pumped shower with copper cylinder with an an electric shower.

    I've been onto Triton already and they don't do any electric showers that don't have a copper heating element like stainless steel for example.

    I know you can get nickel/chromium kettle elements so surely such things exist for showers.

    Do they even exist? My googling hasn't turned up much yet.


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    #2
    rightjob!
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭rightjob!


    Do you live in an area with hard water?


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    #3
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,919 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Dubh Geannain wrote:
    I know you can get nickel/chromium kettle elements so surely such things exist for showers.


    Never heard of such a thing for electric showers tbh.

    A water softening system is the way to go for limescale. This will protect all the elements in the house. Washing machine, dishwasher, kettle etc.


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    #4
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Hard water alright. Already installed a softener when we moved in a couple of years back. I think the softener needs tuning a bit as the limescale is still a little evident. Not the main point though.

    The water (I assume) is causing corrosion of the copper cylinder. We replaced the cylinder last year or perhaps the year before. The copper content in our hot water is sufficient to turn my wife's hair green from showering.

    The copper is not on the mains water when out enters the house as I've checked with a home test kit. It goes from approx 0 ppm in to 2 ppm in the hot taps. My wife heats the water in the kettle which has a chrome element and washes her hair at the kitchen sink without issue.

    Now a cold water fed electric shower with a typical copper element might be enough to solve the problem as the water is at least not sitting in the cylinder but I don't want to chance it if I can. Fixing this issue is adding up cost wise. The softener and new tank were all initially to try and solve the issue.


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    #5
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,919 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Dubh Geannain wrote:
    Now a cold water fed electric shower with a typical copper element might be enough to solve the problem as the water is at least not sitting in the cylinder but I don't want to chance it if I can. Fixing this issue is adding up cost wise. The softener and new tank were all initially to try and solve the issue.

    I'm only guessing here but I assume that the copper is coming from the hot water cylinder and not the element. Element will be coated with limescale so unlikely for copper to be coming from the element imo

    The element in an electric shower is in a sealed plastic heating can. There is very little copper involved.


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    #6
    jhenno78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭jhenno78


    Go for a stainless steel cylinder?


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    #7
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    jhenno78 wrote: »
    Go for a stainless steel cylinder?

    It's the other consideration. But I'm lothe to change the cylinder so soon after replacing the old one. Plus it'd be more costly again I assume.


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    #8
    jhenno78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭jhenno78


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    It's the other consideration. But I'm lothe to change the cylinder so soon after replacing the old one. Plus it'd be more costly again I assume.

    Might not be after you pay an electrician to do the work for the shower.

    You also get to still have a nice pumped shower.

    Fingers crossed doing either actually solves your problem!


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    #9
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,919 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jhenno78 wrote:
    Might not be after you pay an electrician to do the work for the shower.


    Good point. You'll pay anyway from 600 to 1000 (parts and labour) for a first time installation of an electric shower.


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    #10
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    jhenno78 wrote: »
    Might not be after you pay an electrician to do the work for the shower.

    You also get to still have a nice pumped shower.

    Fingers crossed doing either actually solves your problem!

    There's a redundant isolator in the ceiling of this ensuite for what I assume was an electric shower that must have been replaced by the previous occupants when the pump got installed.

    I'm going to ring my plumber today anyway and see what he thinks. Unless he's a registered leccy I assume he'll be looking for me to get someone in to do the shower wiring.

    I know you're not allowed do anything around the fuse board without being registered but if there turns out to be a breaker already in pace is the rewiring something I could do? I'm handy enough with electrics (working constantly with it - running temporary cables, wiring switches, plugs, glanding for water resistance etc.).

    What I'm getting though is that the pumped shower is a nicer option to have than the electric shower in the long run. Is that correct?

    I guess if we do replace the cylinder again this would be for the whole house and not just the ensuite so there's an advantage there also for visitors or using the bath.


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    #11
    jhenno78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭jhenno78


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    I'm going to ring my plumber today anyway and see what he thinks. Unless he's a registered leccy I assume he'll be looking for me to get someone in to do the shower wiring.
    Think only recis are allowed do work in bathrooms, but check with someone who knows.
    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    What I'm getting though is that the pumped shower is a nicer option to have than the electric shower in the long run. Is that correct?
    Matter of personal preference really. Personally I like a good strong shower that you just can't get with an electric. Others don't care as long as it's wet.


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    #12
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Something funny there... You're on mains supply, there's no copper in the mains water,
    but there is in the hot?
    So, something is dissolving the copper in your system at an alarming rate.... Could there be something funny in your water softener.? (Place i used to work the water softener kept rotting out very expensive stainless steel boilers, and a Ridiculously expensive iron steam boiler...)
    Or is your water high in iron, (I don't think copper and iron mix well,) which could explain the cylinder going,

    Do your neighbours have similar issues?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #13
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Something funny there... You're on mains supply, there's no copper in the mains water,
    but there is in the hot?
    So, something is dissolving the copper in your system at an alarming rate.... Could there be something funny in your water softener.? (Place i used to work the water softener kept rotting out very expensive stainless steel boilers, and a Ridiculously expensive iron steam boiler...)
    Or is your water high in iron, (I don't think copper and iron mix well,) which could explain the cylinder going,

    Do your neighbours have similar issues?

    I did speak to one a couple of years ago who is a plumber but he wasn't aware of any issue. I suppose I could have a couple more conversations though with others and do a couple of tests.

    The issue was happening before we installed the softener too so I don't think it's the softener. The softener was our first port of call to try and fix the issue. I also installed a chlorine filter at the mains in myself.

    The only other thing I thought it might be initially was stray currents from bad earthing of the cylinder. I don't think it is that now but I'm reminded to check it again. The only copper pipework in the house if around the hotpress and the cylinder. The rest is Qualpex.

    We live in Trim. According to my wife's hairdresser, everyone (I'm sure not actually) with light coloured hair that she works with has a green tint to it.


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    #14
    lgk
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭lgk


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    We live in Trim. According to my wife's hairdresser, everyone (I'm sure not actually) with light coloured hair that she works with has a green tint to it.

    Get your water independently tested, it is most likely acidic resulting in copper being leached from the pipework.


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    #15
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    lgk wrote: »
    Get your water independently tested, it is most likely acidic resulting in copper being leached from the pipework.

    It's a public supply. I've had it tested previously.

    Water pH is 7.2. That was from the hot tap.


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    #16
    lgk
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭lgk


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    It's a public supply. I've had it tested previously.

    Water pH is 7.2. That was from the hot tap.

    Was the issue happening at the time of the previous test? Hair turning green is an indicator of the presence of copper. Was it just a pH test or were the mineral levels tested?

    Not uncommon for public supplies to become acidic. Mallow invested 40k in their public supply to address the problem a couple of years ago, Kildorrery, also in Cork are now dealing with the same issue and installing a new pH correction system.


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    #17
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    lgk wrote: »
    Was the issue happening at the time of the previous test? Hair turning green is an indicator of the presence of copper. Was it just a pH test or were the mineral levels tested?

    Not uncommon for public supplies to become acidic. Mallow invested 40k in their public supply to address the problem a couple of years ago, Kildorrery, also in Cork are now dealing with the same issue and installing a new pH correction system.

    Yes. The issue was happening from when we moved in. So we got a softener, which didn't fix the issue. Then we got the water tested. Copper was not a standard test so we got it added to the test set based on our own suspicions.

    Colour - mg/l PtCo - 4
    Turbidity - jtu - 0.5
    Odour @ 25C - dilution no- 0
    Ph - ph unit - 7.2
    Conductivity - us/cm @ 20oC - 344
    Nitrate - mg/l - 2.5
    Nitrite - mg/l - <0.01
    Ammonia - mg/l - 0.05
    Calcium - mg/l - 31.6
    Magnesium - mg/l - 3.3
    Iron - mg/l - 0.02
    Manganese - mg/l - 0.03
    Total Hardness - caco3 - 93
    Total Coliforms - 100 mls -0
    E. Coli - 100 mls - 0
    Copper - mg/l - 1.7


    After that I added the a chlorine filter. Then we replaced the tank and element last year. The tank was badly corroded and in need of replacing. The plumber said he hadn't seen one degrade so fast before (17 years). He poured what was in the tank into the bath and it was pure filth. The new cylinder came with a special flange fitted too so that water wasn't being taken from the very top of the cylinder. I remember paying a bit extra for that too.


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    #18
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    They seem to have changed how the results are presented now but I'd looked previously at the Trim water quality results and found no copper present.

    I can't remember the pH levels but they are checked too. 42 samples taken in 2018 apparently with pH results in the range 6.5-9.5

    http://www.meath.microworks.ie/

    Interestingly their limit for copper is 2 ppm. Our water testers tested 1.7 ppm with a limit of 3 ppm.


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    #19
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Got talking to my plumber who is going to ring me back today to discuss the options. The cylinder he fitted last time out also had a sacrificial anode which doesn't seem to have helped much either.


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    #20
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Just a follow-up in case anyone stumbles across this in future.

    We got a Triton T90 SR fitted fed straight from the tank in the attic. The cylinder is now not used for the shower and hair issue has been resolved.

    We still have the issue of elevated copper levels in the hot water system in the house but the mains impact has been alleviated. Mrs D is more than happy. After a couple of years of having to wash her hair at the kitchen sink she now has the luxury of being able to stand under the shower again and let the water run through her hair.


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