Football ranking table

RoscommonTom · 21-03-2014 10:22pm

Blue giant wrote: »

I can guarantee you we will be heavily involved in the latter stages of the championship in the not too distant future. We're churning out a serious amount of underage talent the last few years with some of them just starting to break through such as the Smith bros. and Murtagh. In fact I'd go as far as saying that no other county has a conveyor belt of young talent coming through that are better than our bunch.

Exxactly, between the miners and under 21s were probably the most consistant team in ireland for the last five years

Blue giant · 21-03-2014 10:29pm

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Exxactly, between the miners and under 21s were probably the most consistant team in ireland for the last five years

This sort of form then should surely start to transform to senior level as the players break through and mature

padd b1975 · 21-03-2014 10:38pm

manofwisdom wrote: »

Rankings are i'm sure based on recent form. Its a newish team and what happened in 2008,09 has little relevance. Roscommon would be 15th IMO.

You have to admit though recent form (before this league campaign) has been threading water in Division 3 and a usual spanking from Mayo or Galway in Championship bar a close final against Mayo where the weather levelled up the teams.

Personally I would place them a few places lower, definitely behind Galway, Laois and Westmeath- but I feel they are better than Cavan who seem to be the real strange one in the whole thing.

Blue giant · 21-03-2014 10:42pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

You have to admit though recent form (before this league campaign) has been threading water in Division 3 and a usual spanking from Mayo or Galway in Championship bar a close final against Mayo where the weather levelled up the teams.

Personally I would place them a few places lower, definitely behind Galway, Laois and Westmeath- but I feel they are better than Cavan who seem to be the real strange one in the whole thing.

I'd fancy us to take Galway and Laois. Maybe not Westmeath but I wouldn't exactly fear them too much.

padd b1975 · 21-03-2014 10:53pm

Blue giant wrote: »

I'd fancy us to take Galway and Laois. Maybe not Westmeath but I wouldn't exactly fear them too much.

Would fancy you against Galway, more so with home advantage.
Laois can be a dangerous enough outfit-very streaky on their day.
Pretty close between yourselves and Westmeath....

A season of Division 2 football with a fully fit/available panel will tell a lot more than this table.

Couple of bullet points to throw into the mix....

1. Greater ranking points for championship victories.

2. Bonus points for actual silverware based on importance.

3. Bonus points for promotion and obviously points deducted for relegation.

manofwisdom · 21-03-2014 10:57pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

You have to admit though recent form (before this league campaign) has been threading water in Division 3 and a usual spanking from Mayo or Galway in Championship bar a close final against Mayo where the weather levelled up the teams.

Personally I would place them a few places lower, definitely behind Galway, Laois and Westmeath- but I feel they are better than Cavan who seem to be the real strange one in the whole thing.

Meath,Monaghan were promoted out of div 3 last year they finished on 10 points the Rossies got 9pts.

Did the weather also play a part when Mayo needed extra time to beat London or when Galway lost to Antrim,Sligo? You could always use individual results to suit ones own argument.

We both agree Roscommon should be few places lower however these type of threads will always bring much debate, the OP isn't far off on his rankings.

Blue giant · 21-03-2014 10:57pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

Would fancy you against Galway, more so with home advantage.
Laois can be a dangerous enough outfit-very streaky on their day.
Pretty close between yourselves and Westmeath....

A season of Division 2 football with a fully fit/available panel will tell a lot more than this table.

Couple of bullet points to throw into the mix....

1. Greater ranking points for championship victories.

2. Bonus points for actual silverware based on importance.

3. Bonus points for promotion and obviously points deducted for relegation.

Would agree on all of that. Especially about seeing how we do in division 2. Although it can only help to be playing against a higher quality of opposition week in week out.

Always_Running · 21-03-2014 11:10pm

1 (1) Dublin 93,99
2 (2) Mayo 93,89
3 (5) Kerry 92,81 little high
4 (3) Cork 92,2
5 (4) Tyrone 92,17
6 (7) Monaghan 89,25 too high
7 (6) Donegal 89,11 little low
8 (8) Cavan 87,5 too high
9 (10) Derry 86,98
10 (9) Kildare 85,4
11 (11) Down 85,18 little low
12 (12) Meath 84,84
13 (14) Roscommon 82,27 little high
14 (15) Galway 82
15 (13) Laois 81,39 little low
16 (16) Armagh 80,7
17 (17) Tipperary 78,91
18 (18) Louth 78,71 little low
19 (22) Fermanagh 78,12
20 (20) Wexford 77,79
21 (19) Westmeath 77,74 too low
22 (24) Clare 77,17
23 (23) Longford 75,63
24 (21) Limerick 74,78
25 (25) Sligo 74,74 little low
26 (26) Leitrim 72,93
27 (29) Wicklow 72,92
28 (28) Offaly 72,75
29 (27) London 72,1
30 (31) Waterford 70,77
31 (30) Antrim 70,23
32 (33) New York 67,22 little high
33 (32) Carlow 66,96
34 (34) Kilkenny 61,25

Other than that the list is grand

Lemlin · 22-03-2014 12:57am

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Exxactly, between the miners and under 21s were probably the most consistant team in ireland for the last five years

Galway have won two U21 All Irelands in the last three years. How have Roscommon been more consistent than that?

Cavan have won three Ulster U21s in a row and one minor.

Lemlin · 22-03-2014 1:00am

manofwisdom wrote: »

Cork,Dublin certainly have. I'm not sure whats going on with Tyrone they are producing some good minors teams however its now 2006 since they won Ulster U-21 title.

Cavan are what's going on. I'm not generally one to talk Cavan up but our lads played Tyrone off the park on Wednesday night. It finished 1-11 to 6 points. That's what you call a comprehensive victory.

Always_Running · 22-03-2014 2:00am

Tyrone won Ulster minor titles in 2007,2008 and one All Ireland. The Ulster U21 titles in 2008,09,10 was won by Donegal,Down twice. Tyrone didn't even reach the U-21 final those years.

Lemlin · 22-03-2014 2:35am

Always_Running wrote: »

Tyrone won Ulster minor titles in 2007,2008 and one All Ireland. The Ulster U21 titles in 2008,09,10 was won by Donegal,Down twice. Tyrone didn't even reach the U-21 final those years.

Donegal beat Cavan in the 2010 final. From 2009 onwards, that is the only game Cavan have lost in Ulster at U21 level.

Hopefully a record they will keep going this year.

Always_Running · 22-03-2014 2:53am

Lemlin wrote: »

Donegal beat Cavan in the 2010 final. From 2009 onwards, that is the only game Cavan have lost in Ulster at U21 level.

Hopefully a record they will keep going this year.

That Donegal team should have won the All Ireland, Murphy missed penalty cost them against the Dubs. For all Tyrone minor success it's surprising they haven't won at least one Ulster U-21 title since 06.

nice_guy80 · 22-03-2014 3:45am

Westmeath have been brutal in the championship for the past few years

laoisman11 · 22-03-2014 11:22am

padd b1975 wrote: »

Would fancy you against Galway, more so with home advantage.
Laois can be a dangerous enough outfit-very streaky on their day.
Pretty close between yourselves and Westmeath....

A season of Division 2 football with a fully fit/available panel will tell a lot more than this table.

Couple of bullet points to throw into the mix....

1. Greater ranking points for championship victories.

2. Bonus points for actual silverware based on importance.

3. Bonus points for promotion and obviously points deducted for relegation.

Championship is already weighted double. I played around with the ratings just to see what would happen in championship was *4 but oddly enough it didn't make a huge difference, or at least not as big a difference as I was expecting.

If a team is promoted, that means they've won a lot of matches and therefore climbed in the rankings. Similarly if they're relegated, they've generally lost a lot of points. It doesn't seem rationale to me to reward or penalise a team twice for the same action.

laoisman11 · 22-03-2014 11:25am

Always_Running wrote: »

1 (1) Dublin 93,99
2 (2) Mayo 93,89
3 (5) Kerry 92,81 little high
4 (3) Cork 92,2
5 (4) Tyrone 92,17
6 (7) Monaghan 89,25 too high
7 (6) Donegal 89,11 little low
8 (8) Cavan 87,5 too high
9 (10) Derry 86,98
10 (9) Kildare 85,4
11 (11) Down 85,18 little low
12 (12) Meath 84,84
13 (14) Roscommon 82,27 little high
14 (15) Galway 82
15 (13) Laois 81,39 little low
16 (16) Armagh 80,7
17 (17) Tipperary 78,91
18 (18) Louth 78,71 little low
19 (22) Fermanagh 78,12
20 (20) Wexford 77,79
21 (19) Westmeath 77,74 too low
22 (24) Clare 77,17
23 (23) Longford 75,63
24 (21) Limerick 74,78
25 (25) Sligo 74,74 little low
26 (26) Leitrim 72,93
27 (29) Wicklow 72,92
28 (28) Offaly 72,75
29 (27) London 72,1
30 (31) Waterford 70,77
31 (30) Antrim 70,23
32 (33) New York 67,22 little high
33 (32) Carlow 66,96
34 (34) Kilkenny 61,25

Other than that the list is grand

Haha, thanks!

League results will vary positions slightly, wait till early championship for some serious jumps based on shock results and then you'll have a strong case for "too high"/"too low"!!! Later on in the championship the effect of the shock results will normally be negated when the team loses......

laoisman11 · 22-03-2014 11:32am

Hanalei wrote: »

Excellent work, took me a few weeks to do this last summer, you've done this surprisingly quickly!

Looks like it's reasonably accurate too.

The hurling ranking thread is a lot more straight forward because the teams are packed a lot closer together in football than they are in hurling, a team that is about 24th one year in football could easily be a top ten team within two years. Your rankings will be subject to much more debate than my one, as the pecking order in hurling is way more straight forward than it is in football.

First to last is covered by about 30 points in your table while the gap is closer to 65 in mine.

Croke Park home venue for Dublin- brave call:D I didn't go for that myself!

Great work though, interesting to note the little differences between our systems! I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread.

What year did you pick as your start point? Edit; Nevermind, just seen you picked 2009. Sorry for an annoying request but would you mind if I asked you to post an end of year top three for each year? (I'm just curious!)

Cheers Hanalei. I've a bit of free time on my hands at the moment so that helps!

Will put up rankings for all counties on wikipedia, and if it doesn't necessitate too much format changing, will put up the top 5 here as well. I'm tempted to go back to 2000 to see how high Laois got in the rankings in 2003 (a bit egotistical, I know, but hey!) although it's likely to take another week.

Hulk Hands · 22-03-2014 11:41am

The broadband revolution has spread to Roscommon it seems. 2010 was the most ill earnt provincial title of all time. Beating a completey undisciplined Sligo side who had handily got rid of Mayo and Galway, by a point in the final. That and running Tyrone close in the qualifiers doesn't grant you access to the top tier

RoscommonTom · 22-03-2014 12:18pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

The broadband revolution has spread to Roscommon it seems. 2010 was the most ill earnt provincial title of all time. Beating a completey undisciplined Sligo side who had handily got rid of Mayo and Galway, by a point in the final. That and running Tyrone close in the qualifiers doesn't grant you access to the top tier

Were better than the galways thats for sure

RoscommonTom · 22-03-2014 12:18pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

The broadband revolution has spread to Roscommon it seems. 2010 was the most ill earnt provincial title of all time. Beating a completey undisciplined Sligo side who had handily got rid of Mayo and Galway, by a point in the final. That and running Tyrone close in the qualifiers doesn't grant you access to the top tier

Were better than the galways thats for sure

Utopia Parkway · 22-03-2014 1:46pm

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Were better than the galways thats for sure

In fairness I heard the same before Galway went up to the Hyde in 2012.

rossie1977 · 22-03-2014 2:06pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

The broadband revolution has spread to Roscommon it seems. 2010 was the most ill earnt provincial title of all time. Beating a completey undisciplined Sligo side who had handily got rid of Mayo and Galway, by a point in the final. That and running Tyrone close in the qualifiers doesn't grant you access to the top tier

you can only beat whats put in front of you, if that sligo side were so undisciplined then why didn't mayo or galway beat them in the earlier rounds? sligo got to the final again 2 years ago and mayo scraped over the line, that particular match was level after 64 minutes.

13th isn't top tier anyway, cavan are 8th on that list and around same level as us. armagh, tipperary, louth, fermanagh, wexford all just below us in that table we have beaten either in the championship or league over the past 2 years.

Lemlin · 22-03-2014 4:20pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

you can only beat whats put in front of you, if that sligo side were so undisciplined then why didn't mayo or galway beat them in the earlier rounds? sligo got to the final again 2 years ago and mayo scraped over the line, that particular match was level after 64 minutes.

13th isn't top tier anyway, cavan are 8th on that list and around same level as us. armagh, tipperary, louth, fermanagh, wexford all just below us in that table we have beaten either in the championship or league over the past 2 years.

I would actually rate Roscommon above Cavan. I expect ye to beat us in the Division 3 final.

In regard to the rankings though, we played 7 championship games last year so that has to have greatly improved our position.

We beat Division 2 Armagh, fellow Division 3 Fermanagh twice, a then promoted to Division 1 Derry and London. We also only lost to Monaghan by a point but beat them and Meath in the league. Roscommon beat neither.

This year we have only lost one game, to Tyrone, from the 9 we have played so far between McKenna Cup and League. In the McKenna Cup, we beat both Monaghan and Down.

Always_Running · 22-03-2014 5:26pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I would actually rate Roscommon above Cavan. I expect ye to beat us in the Division 3 final.

In regard to the rankings though, we played 7 championship games last year so that has to have greatly improved our position.

We beat Division 2 Armagh, fellow Division 3 Fermanagh twice, a then promoted to Division 1 Derry and London. We also only lost to Monaghan by a point but beat them and Meath in the league. Roscommon beat neither.

This year we have only lost one game, to Tyrone, from the 9 we have played so far between McKenna Cup and League. In the McKenna Cup, we beat both Monaghan and Down.

With that record why do you think Cavan will lose the div 3 final? could be wrong but i think Ross bet Monaghan last year.

Lemlin · 22-03-2014 7:59pm

Always_Running wrote: »

With that record why do you think Cavan will lose the div 3 final? could be wrong but i think Ross bet Monaghan last year.

Because I rate Roscommon as a better team than Cavan. That said, I'm usually fairly hard on our lads. I just feel Roscommon have a more experienced team and we haven't beaten Them for a few years now at underage or senior level.

I'd also fear the Ros U21s this year for example, as good as our lads were in dispatching Tyrone the other evening.

Monaghan lost only one game last year. That was to Cavan. Meath only lost two, to Cavan and Monaghan.

Hulk Hands · 26-03-2014 1:52am

RoscommonTom wrote: »

Were better than the galways thats for sure

I never mentioned Galway. Can you not make an argument about a specific subject without getting personal like a child?

While we're on the subject though, Galway hammered Roscommon last time they played in championship, and also got further in last years championship. So I don't know where your drawing that conclusion. Some of the rossie posters are very funny. We have one who comes on our board is constantly condescending to a county like Lietrim. A county like Galway currently has no place acting superior to anyone in football, never mind Rosommon. I can think of very few reasons in the last 50 years why a rossie could be condescending towards any county, for football or anything else

Syferus · 26-03-2014 2:43am

Hulk Hands wrote: »

The broadband revolution has spread to Roscommon it seems. 2010 was the most ill earnt provincial title of all time. Beating a completey undisciplined Sligo side who had handily got rid of Mayo and Galway, by a point in the final. That and running Tyrone close in the qualifiers doesn't grant you access to the top tier

Patronising guff of the highest order. No more needs to be said.

RoscommonTom · 26-03-2014 8:12pm

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I never mentioned Galway. Can you not make an argument about a specific subject without getting personal like a child?

While we're on the subject though, Galway hammered Roscommon last time they played in championship, and also got further in last years championship. So I don't know where your drawing that conclusion. Some of the rossie posters are very funny. We have one who comes on our board is constantly condescending to a county like Lietrim. A county like Galway currently has no place acting superior to anyone in football, never mind Rosommon. I can think of very few reasons in the last 50 years why a rossie could be condescending towards any county, for football or anything else

Well at least we put up more of a fight against the mayos than you did, id fancy London to give you a beating this year with the way you lads have been playing,

laoisman11 · 26-03-2014 8:27pm

Based on what were some apparent outliers on the previous table I posted, I have looked again at the manner in which the rankings are calculated. As noted, using the original IRB method there is a much smaller spread between the 1st placed and last-placed team compared to what is obtained in rugby or hurling. While this is to be expected, it does mean that rankings can change a lot or that the number 1 ranked team could be knocked off their top spot very easily (for example, Dublin, although having won the previous championship and league, could easily have slipped to 6th if they had lost and teams 2-5 had maintained their position based on the ranking in the table in the OP).

In order to "spread" out the teams, I played around with the 10 ranking point rule from the IRB, i.e. the favourite will not gain any ranking points from beating a team who are 10 points below them in the table (taking into consideration home advantage).

In extending this out to 20 pts, it ensures that the top teams gain more and therefore can distance themselves at the top of the table.

(I had a look at extending it to 30 pts, but this becomes too favourable for the long-term top team and makes it harder for the 2nd and 3rd place teams to reel them in – so much so that in one season, 2008, the All-Ireland champions Tyrone did not have no. 1 spot due to the long-term dominance of Kerry. It is my opinion that All-Ireland champion should equal no. 1 ranking.)

So the table below reflects this updated system and I feel that it is more accurate.

There has been a slight re-organisation of places (Cork/kerry, Louth/Tipp, Donegal/Monaghan) but ranking differences are generally small. Cavan and Fermanagh drop 3 places and Roscommon drop 2 places. This seems to tie in with a lot of comments here in relation to the elevated positions of Cavan and Roscommon.

I was also able to allow for New York's lack of playing time by starting them on 60 points compared to 80 points for all other teams.

I will post an updated table after this weekend's round of fixtures.

Position|Team|Rating points
1|Dublin|105,88
2|Mayo|101,85
3|Cork|100,08
4|Kerry|99,28
5|Tyrone|98,71
6|Donegal|97,28
7|Monaghan|91,74
8|Kildare|90,20
9|Derry|89,68
10|Down|89,52
11|Cavan|86,82
12|Meath|86,51
13|Laois|83,90
14|Galway|82,40
15|Roscommon|82,32
16|Armagh|80,66
17|Louth|78,46
18|Wexford|77,21
19|Westmeath|77,12
20|Tipperary|76,86
21|Limerick|74,41
22|Fermanagh|74,08
23|Clare|72,92
24|Longford|72,47
25|Sligo|71,25
26|Wicklow|68,60
27|Leitrim|67,58
28|Offaly|67,53
29|Antrim|66,19
30|Waterford|63,65
31|London|62,42
32|Carlow|60,88
33|New York|54,10
34|Kilkenny|47,52

keane2097 · 26-03-2014 11:51pm

That looks almost bang on. Sligo probably a touch low along with Longford while Clare are slightly too high IMO but outside of those it looks very good

Football ranking table

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