What if De Velera had been executed?

That's an interesting topic of discussion. Collins would still have been interned in Frongoch, and that's where the planning for the war of independence started. Since De Valera was in another prison, he had no bearing on what the IRB men planned in Frongoch, anyway. Collins' personality guaranteed that he would have been a dominant mover in the struggle, with or without De Valera. However, De Valera appointed him Minister of Finance, and it was through that position that Collins became really influential. Had he not held that position in the Dial, he maybe would not have been able to wield as much influence to create the squad, etc. So, I would say that Collins would have been very active, but perhaps he would not have been a top guy. I'll stop there. Maybe someone else wants to weigh in.

(I'm a newbie to this board, BTW, so hello!)

tdv123 wrote: »

Interesting topic alright Wasn't the decision made not to execute him because he was born in America & they were trying to draw America into into WWI? Would this have made any really influence on America's decision to enter the war?

If I remember correctly, his US citizenship was the main reason De Valera's sentence was commuted. And I wouldn't doubt that he was counting on that to work in his favor.

Impossible to say whether or not his being executed would have changed the decision to enter the war. I'm from the US, and boy do I know that we rarely pass up an opportunity to go to war.

Lector wrote: »

I think Collins owed his power not to his overt Ministerial position but his cover membership of the IRB Council. That was independent of Dev and gave him more than enough clout to set up the Squad. Indeed, his ministerial post might have come from his IRB clout too.

This is a true point. Collins was Director of Intelligence for the IRB. That's where his influence came from. De Valera was in jail and then abroad for a decent portion of this period, and therefore he couldn't necessarily control who gained power and influence back in Dublin.

Short term I'm not too sure Dev made much difference to the War of Independence. Civil war may not have happened but there was always going to be a strong opposition to partition and the lack of a republic so my bet is it would have.

Longer term the impact would have been more significant. No DeV and there would have been no Fianna Fail. Maybe that would have left a gap in the market for a strong labour party but then again the Bishops didn't exactly like godless socialists so maybe not. Without DeV's romantic isolationist vision of self-sufficency through agriculture would the industrialisation of Ireland started sooner and stronger under a Cumann na nGaedheal government that had already shown some vision with the building of Ardnacrusha or would an economically hostile England have levied crippling tariffs on any Irish industrial output. Would a Cumann na nGaedheal government have maintained our neutrality in World War 2 and would the influence of facists like O'Higgins been stronger within the Fine Gael gene pool so Ireland have joined on the Nazi side? Would England have survived with Ireland acting as a blockade to it's access to the Athlantic? How would no DeV have impacted on Lemass? Would he have emerged as a leader sooner or was he too young and had to serve this time under another leader who may not have promoted him? Without a dominant Fianna Fail would Charles Haughey have stayed as a playboy accountant or would his naked ambition have seen him rise through the ranks of dominant Fine Gael? Would an academic like Garret Fitzgerald have come through earlier in a Fine Gael that had held a dominant position in Government for decades and didn't think it needed new ideas? Without Haughey would the likes of Ahern and Cowen ever even got a sniff of power?

So on balance I would say the legacy of DeV is probably far more significant in Irish life right up to today than people realise. He set us on paths that we are still travelling. Without DeV the country would be very very different. But positively or negatively is impossible to say. It's fun to speculate though :-)

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

You dont remember correctly. He didnt even think that himself.

Okay, well, I shall stand corrected. Though I will add that no one can know what he was thinking, and he was a clever guy. Markievicz was counting on not being shot because she was a woman. I can't imagine that De Valera did not have even a tiny little thought of being spared because of his nationality, however much he may have been prepared to face a firing squad.

touts wrote: »

Would England have survived with Ireland acting as a blockade to it's access to the Athlantic?

How long do you think Ireland would have stood against a 'blockaded' UK determined to get out?

What navy or air force could Ireland have fielded to prevent the British Royal Navy, at that time the largest and most powerful on earth, from doing what it wanted to? The edge of Ireland's coastline to a depth of at least fourteen miles was vulnerable to bombardment from RN major battleships - think about it.

Let alone those elements of the RAF that had successfully engaged the Luftwaffe, determined NOT to be contained.

Ireland's cities and population may have had to pay a terrible price for trying to hold back the British, themselves fighting for their very existence at the time. You can imagine Mr Churchill, standing up in parliament, uttering the following words -

'Following the statement of intention from the government of the Irish free State to use, in their own words, all possible methods of effecting a blockade on Allied shipping heading for or departing the western sea-ports of the United Kingdom, it is with a heavy heart, and with very deep regret, that I have signed, within the last hour, a document of intent addressed to the government of the Free State. The nub of the statement is this, that His Majesty's Government, will treat any such action on the part of the government of the Free State of Ireland, as an Act of War, and that subsequently, a state of war will exist between our two nations. His Majesty's Armed Forces, both Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, will, on receiving notification of this state of war, respond by using an overwhelming force of arms to ensure the safe and unhindered passage of our shipping, in either direction. I would respectfully remind this house, lest my meaning is not abundantly clear, that the greater part of the Free State's population and its historic cities lie readily under the guns of the capital ships of the Royal Navy, and to make it clear to the gentlemen in the government of the Free State, lest there be any doubt of MY words, ANY offensive action taken by the Armed Forces of the Free State to hinder the free passage of our shipping, given that we are ourselves fighting against almost insurmountable odds, will be met with a justifiable degree of terrible and swift violence that will, when peace returns to the world, long be remembered with great pain and immense grief.'

By all means let us consider an Ireland without Mr De Valera, but that apart, let's at least try and maintain an element of reality in the thread.

tac