Ever met someone with Aspergers?

Musefan · 14-03-2019 11:58pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Musefan, I have Dyspraxia. I don't think I'm NT. Would I be correct in thinking there are some overlaps with ASD/Aspies and Dyspraxia? I'm just wondering if it's worth shelling out for a diagnosis just to be sure if it's Dyspraxia or Aspies or both.

Hey, yes there’s an overlap. A diagnosis is helpful if it assists you in your own understanding of your strengths and difficulties. I’m not sure how much more I can comment given the general rule on a boards about healthcare advice, sorry!

One eyed Jack · 15-03-2019 12:09am

Wibbs wrote: »

Leonardo DaVinci is often a catchall for this reverse diagnosis of all sorts of things, being on the spectrum one of them.

Einstein even moreso. Almost every developmental, cognitive or intellectual disorder/disability has been associated by advocates with famous people who displayed exceptionally high levels of (academic) intelligence, while attributing exceptionally low levels of (social) intelligence to whatever disorder/disability they happened to be advocates for.

For me it’s a contradiction of the oft used “if you know one person with <insert condition here>, you know one person with <insert condition here>”, because as has even been evidenced from just this thread alone, there are commonalities and shared traits that can be identified and attributed to autism. Exceptionally high academic or social intelligence is not one of those traits for the vast majority of people who are autistic.

I’m very wary commenting on these types of threads as they are overwhelmingly supportive of people with these conditions, but they often lack objectivity in favour of community. I don’t think it’s a good idea to associate impairments with value judgements because often the only perspective is coming from a place of compassion for people with these conditions. It reminds me of a time when it was assumed that if a person was autistic, they were a savant in some field. It stands to reason that if someone is obsessive about a particular topic, and it’s all they ever talked about, that they would appear to be highly intelligent, precisely because they have a devoted interest in that particular area - it’s no different than someone who specialises in a particular area in medicine, of course they will appear knowledgeable and highly intelligent as long as their specialist area of interest is the topic of conversation.

It’s also a very politicised area of advocacy, even moreso nowadays with the prevalence of identity politics and value judgements based upon valuing people with disabilities, portraying them in a positive light when by far and away the vast majority are not above average intelligence (either academic or social intelligence), and need a lot of physical, psychological and social support and care, but they appear to be overlooked in favour of social validation garnered from identifying as part of a community which has the least social stigma attached- just enough to garner sympathy, not enough to be associated with people with more severe levels of cognitive, developmental and intellectual conditions.

I’d be coming from the opposite point of view of those people who identify traits they associate with autism in themselves and other people, in that just because someone displays particular traits doesn’t mean they actually do have <insert particular condition or plethora of conditions here>, as the traits that person is identifying are common to the average person, nothing particularly unique, exceptional or special about them.

Baron Kurtz · 15-03-2019 12:13am

Wearing.

Sardonicat · 15-03-2019 12:14am

Musefan wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

Musefan, I have Dyspraxia. I don't think I'm NT. Would I be correct in thinking there are some overlaps with ASD/Aspies and Dyspraxia? I'm just wondering if it's worth shelling out for a diagnosis just to be sure if it's Dyspraxia or Aspies or both.

Hey, yes there’s an overlap. A diagnosis is helpful if it assists you in your own understanding of your strengths and difficulties. I’m not sure how much more I can comment given the general rule on a boards about healthcare advice, sorry!

Thanks, Musefan. You've been really helpful. Just knowing that there is overlap has clarified some things for me.

cnocbui · 15-03-2019 12:27am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Einstein even moreso. Almost every developmental, cognitive or intellectual disorder/disability has been associated by advocates with famous people who displayed exceptionally high levels of (academic) intelligence, while attributing exceptionally low levels of (social) intelligence to whatever disorder/disability they happened to be advocates for.

For me it’s a contradiction of the oft used “if you know one person with <insert condition here>, you know one person with <insert condition here>”, because as has even been evidenced from just this thread alone, there are commonalities and shared traits that can be identified and attributed to autism. Exceptionally high academic or social intelligence is not one of those traits for the vast majority of people who are autistic.

I’m very wary commenting on these types of threads as they are overwhelmingly supportive of people with these conditions, but they often lack objectivity in favour of community. I don’t think it’s a good idea to associate impairments with value judgements because often the only perspective is coming from a place of compassion for people with these conditions. It reminds me of a time when it was assumed that if a person was autistic, they were a savant in some field. It stands to reason that if someone is obsessive about a particular topic, and it’s all they ever talked about, that they would appear to be highly intelligent, precisely because they have a devoted interest in that particular area - it’s no different than someone who specialises in a particular area in medicine, of course they will appear knowledgeable and highly intelligent as long as their specialist area of interest is the topic of conversation.

It’s also a very politicised area of advocacy, even moreso nowadays with the prevalence of identity politics and value judgements based upon valuing people with disabilities, portraying them in a positive light when by far and away the vast majority are not above average intelligence (either academic or social intelligence), and need a lot of physical, psychological and social support and care, but they appear to be overlooked in favour of social validation garnered from identifying as part of a community which has the least social stigma attached- just enough to garner sympathy, not enough to be associated with people with more severe levels of cognitive, developmental and intellectual conditions.

I’d be coming from the opposite point of view of those people who identify traits they associate with autism in themselves and other people, in that just because someone displays particular traits doesn’t mean they actually do have <insert particular condition or plethora of conditions here>, as the traits that person is identifying are common to the average person, nothing particularly unique, exceptional or special about them.

Well, despite what you seem to be trying to say there, the three people on the spectrum who inhabit my household all have a measured intelligence in the 95% percentile - as a minimum. So your effort at trying to downplay the intelligence of those with aspergers doesn't have any credibility as far as I am concerned, nor does it agree with accepted clinical characterisation of the condition.

KathleenGrant · 15-03-2019 12:34am

Met dozens of people with Aspergers and work with two. They are all very different from each other. There are people whose traits seem more evident than others. Some have the obsessive interest trait and some don't. Some have monotone speech, some don't. Some are extremely socially awkward, some are not. Basically they are just the same as the rest of us with a few quirks. I have found them to be great workers, to be direct and honest in their dealings with people and be interesting people.

katiek102010 · 15-03-2019 12:36am

My son has been referred for an ASD assessment. As his teacher puts it, it would have been diagnosed with Aspergers.

He is scarily intelligent. Obsessed with all things science and physics.
He has extremely poor social skills. I worry for his future

One eyed Jack · 15-03-2019 12:36am

cnocbui wrote: »

Well, despite what you seem to be trying to say there, the three people on the spectrum who inhabit my household all have a measured intelligence in the 95% percentile - as a minimum. So your effort at trying to downplay the intelligence of those with aspergers doesn't have any credibility as far as I am concerned, nor does it agree with accepted clinical characterisation of the condition.

Three people in your household are hardly a representative sample of the number of people diagnosed with autism.

As for the bit in bold, there is no one accepted clinical characterisation of autism, as one of the major issues among clinicians is precisely how autism is defined.

katiek102010 · 15-03-2019 12:50am

Grayson wrote: »

I get sarcasm, I'm probably the most sarcastic person you could meet. there are certain social cues I'll miss though, like not knowing when to shut up, or not realising that the person I'm talking to has no interest in what I'm saying. It took years for me to get core relevant information down to a tee. I needed to learn how to only give relevant information to people. There are plenty of other strange traits I have but they just result in me being a bit odd. Not in a bad way either.

I've actually developed my small talk and banter over the years. I'll find myself walking home and rehearsing conversations in my head. I'll memorise jokes I hear on TV and just sprinkle them into conversation. It probably took about 15 years for me to develop that side of my personality.

Weirdly I've very extroverted. I love talking to people and learning about them. I'm the guy who wanders around a party chatting to everyone. I had a friend once who said the nicest thing about me is that I seem genuinely interested in everyone I meet.

And I do have that obsession with weird topics. I tend to learn about something new, consume every bit of information I can get and then move onto the next subject.

The thing is that most people I know never suspected I might be aspie and when I found out and told them they were all like "That makes so much sense"

This is my son to a tee. He learns joke to try and appear funny to his school friends but the poor thing repeats them constantly. He doesn't get when people want to stop him talking and he either annoys people or gets in trouble

cnocbui · 15-03-2019 12:50am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Three people in your household are hardly a representative sample of the number of people diagnosed with autism.

As for the bit in bold, there is no one accepted clinical characterisation of autism, as one of the major issues among clinicians is precisely how autism is defined.

High intelligence was central to Hans Aspergers original characterisation of the condition. I invite you you to cite an accepted clinical characterisation that does not include High intelligence, since you are suggesting such a thing exists.

Wibbs · 15-03-2019 1:09am

Dante7 wrote: »

Wibbs, do you think you may be somewhere on the spectrum?

I'm likely on the "spectrum" of something D. Most likely low functioning Gobshititus, as a chronic condition.

A while back I did one of those online tests for the spectrum folks. I can't quite recall specifics, but IIRC it was marks outa 40 or close enough. And I got a "score" of 4. So NT or "normal". Though if any test pegs me as normal, I'm thinking along the lines of WTF??. One question that seemed obvious was "would you prefer a day at a museum or a night at the theatre?" and I picked museum. Well.. yeah. And I mostly despise theatre. And musicals. "The hillllls.. are alive with the sound of... " feck off.

ArnieSilvia · 15-03-2019 1:15am

cnocbui wrote: »

Well, despite what you seem to be trying to say there, the three people on the spectrum who inhabit my household all have a measured intelligence in the 95% percentile - as a minimum. So your effort at trying to downplay the intelligence of those with aspergers doesn't have any credibility as far as I am concerned, nor does it agree with accepted clinical characterisation of the condition.

I think the key thing here is that people with Asperger's, despite above average intelligence, do not perform great in tests, interviews, social stuff, frustrating inefficiencies at work etc that are geared towards NT people. That is, until they work it out :pac: I am a living example of this. Took me 15 years or so.

I assume that the problem of intelligence and real life performance is partly related to the fact that mainstream schools are a waste of time for people with Asperger's. If those people could benefit from individual school curriculum (to let them develop deep into certain fields, usually science), some serious super scientists could be created this way that would benefit the society.

For now though, the only things parents can do, is to help develop the kids so in the future they will fall into jobs they can manage with and will be working with like minded people.

In terms of social aspect, Ireland's culture is complete opposite of a person with Asperger's. Being different is a no-no and reason to be bullied everywhere. Be direct and you are labelled rude.
Go to France and you hear "vive la difference". And you will find out quickly what "being direct" means:D

If you have Asperger's, go to Germany, France, Netherlands, Poland etc and you will feel like at home. I'm patiently waiting till our kids finish schools here and we are out. I had lots of friends in my youth, none now. Our kids had lots of friends in ET school, none now in a rural school. I think it is clear that it helps to be among like minded people, especially if one has Asperger's

One eyed Jack · 15-03-2019 1:18am

cnocbui wrote: »

High intelligence was central to Hans Aspergers original characterisation of the condition. I invite you you to cite an accepted clinical characterisation that does not include High intelligence, since you are suggesting such a thing exists.

I’m speaking specifically of autism, I haven’t said a word about traits commonly attributed to a condition referred to as Asperger’s syndrome, considered a form of autism, on a spectrum of severity. There is very little comparison can be made between two people who are said to have the same condition yet display completely different traits as though they are two different conditions.

We’re obviously not talking about the same condition when we can’t even agree on the scope that determines the characteristics of these conditions. I have no problem with my opinion being of no value to you given you’re putting forward the idea that your three household inhabitants are representative of a estimated global population of 24m people diagnosed with autism, with the fact that they are above average intelligence proving nothing in relation to autism only that as far as you’re concerned my opinion has no credibility -

cnocbui wrote: »

So your effort at trying to downplay the intelligence of those with aspergers doesn't have any credibility as far as I am concerned

Good for you, and good for your three household inhabitants, and I would never detract from that. I’ve already pointed out that I’m wary of posting on these threads as they are generally supportive as opposed to objective.

r93kaey5p2izun · 15-03-2019 1:20am

I have met many people with aspergers and autism, mostly through work and a few in my family. I have a brother diagnosed with aspergers when it was still a specific diagnosis. I have found the people I have met with aspergers to have a variety of personalities and traits, and yet there was a common vibe among most of them too. Unfortunately my brother is a nasty, domineering, abusive, and violent person capable of unbelievable cruelty and coercion. He has good superficial social skills and plenty of friends. Pathological demand avoidance has been cited as the reason he is unable to work, meet the requirements of the social welfare or disability allowance process, or do anything other than play computer games. He refuses all supports and help, the official line insists he can't help himself but they will not intervene either. His diagnosis is regularly used as an excuse for his behaviour yet also as a reason for no official assistance or intervention.

Sardonicat · 15-03-2019 1:29am

+1 on the social aspects of being on thr spectrum clashing with social culture here!
And being considered rude for giving an honest answer to a question! I don't do bull**** and I won't apologise for that. I regard it as a positive trait, not a flaw or defect in my social intelligence. I can be subtle but need a lie down in a quiet room afterwards to recover my equilibrium!

Fourier · 15-03-2019 1:31am

Have taught a good few people with Aspergers as it was called. Ironically the one guy I did research with who had Aspergers found the rest of us (three others in the office) too obsessive about physics and maths!

lainey_d_123 · 16-03-2019 12:05am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Enough of the labels, please. I do not consider myself an ableist and I certainly won’t be referring to myself as “NT”.

I don’t see what’s wrong with pointing out that in an evolved society people are looked after? Is that not what’s happening in the modern workplace?

I’ve never resented anyone with any special needs having a full time job. I’m not sure if there are any in my current workplace but there are a couple of guys who are very into computer games and don’t talk about much else, they don’t seem capable of maintaining eye contact. I would have in my younger days working in a supermarket and never had any issue with that.

It was the way you said it. I may have Aspergers but I'm not an idiot. You said it in a way that implied there was something unfair about people with disabilities having accommodations made for them so that getting a job might be *slightly* easier for them than it would be otherwise. Why would you phrase it in such a way if your underlying belief wasn't that it was unfair?

Airyfairy12 · 16-03-2019 12:18am

Reuben Black Trader wrote: »

I have met many people with aspergers and autism, mostly through work and a few in my family. I have a brother diagnosed with aspergers when it was still a specific diagnosis. I have found the people I have met with aspergers to have a variety of personalities and traits, and yet there was a common vibe among most of them too. Unfortunately my brother is a nasty, domineering, abusive, and violent person capable of unbelievable cruelty and coercion. He has good superficial social skills and plenty of friends. Pathological demand avoidance has been cited as the reason he is unable to work, meet the requirements of the social welfare or disability allowance process, or do anything other than play computer games. He refuses all supports and help, the official line insists he can't help himself but they will not intervene either. His diagnosis is regularly used as an excuse for his behaviour yet also as a reason for no official assistance or intervention.

My brother is diagnosed too and is almost exactly as you describe, when he was younger he got by on superficial social skills but as he's gotten older his level of maturity has not progressed so he is still behaving like his 20 something year old self at age 38 causing him huge problems socially. He is cruel, domineering and abusive, attempts coercion tactics constantly and has no respect for other peoples boundaries or privacy, he is also incredibly argumentative and always has to be right. It's draining to be around him.
He is constantly doing things getting himself into trouble either legally or with people he meets. He is very intelligent and ive no doubt he has a very high IQ but his personality is grating at the best of times.

wiggle16 · 16-03-2019 12:26am

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It was the way you said it. I may have Aspergers but I'm not an idiot. You said it in a way that implied there was something unfair about people with disabilities having accommodations made for them so that getting a job might be *slightly* easier for them than it would be otherwise. Why would you phrase it in such a way if your underlying belief wasn't that it was unfair?

I read the same post as you and I didn't get the impression that emmettspiceland thought there was anything unfair about accommodations being made for people in the workplace - and I'm not an idiot either. What phrasing are you talking about?

lainey_d_123 · 16-03-2019 12:39am

wiggle16 wrote: »

I read the same post as you and I didn't get the impression that emmettspiceland thought there was anything unfair about accommodations being made for people in the workplace - and I'm not an idiot either. What phrasing are you talking about?

You don't think there's a negative tone to a post about 'bending to the needs of a few'?

Really?

Quite a few people liked it, so I obviously wasn't alone in my opinion.

wiggle16 · 16-03-2019 1:03am

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You don't think there's a negative tone to a post about 'bending to the needs of a few'?

Really?

Quite a few people liked it, so I obviously wasn't alone in my opinion.

I don't. I think it can be read neutrally and objectively, particularly when the person clarified what they said subsequently. It doesn't by itself imply what you are inferring from it. It is also a factually true assertion in the sense that the West is far more accommodating to people who may have additional requirements in public life than it once was - and that's due to the majority acknowledging and adapting to the needs of the minority. It's nowhere near where it needs to be but it's a start.

Few people are ever alone in holding a certain opinion or perception. I think calling someone ableist in response to a post like that is unfair and an overreaction.

EmmetSpiceland · 16-03-2019 1:35am

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It was the way you said it. I may have Aspergers but I'm not an idiot. You said it in a way that implied there was something unfair about people with disabilities having accommodations made for them so that getting a job might be *slightly* easier for them than it would be otherwise. Why would you phrase it in such a way if your underlying belief wasn't that it was unfair?

Look, I’m not going to get into some all night back and forth with you over context or what I may or may not have said. I clarified my meaning and if you’re not happy with that there’s not much I can do about it.

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

You don't think there's a negative tone to a post about 'bending to the needs of a few'?

The few. I said the few, not a few.

Now, I’ve said me piece so let’s just leave it at that.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 16-03-2019 2:00am

Finland appears to be a place where aspies would thrive. They have a very socially insular culture. Some norms there are:

1.It's rude to look at someone in the eyes if you dont know them. 2.No chit chat; if you have something to say, say it. 3.If you cant be comfortable sitting in silence with someone you are not friends. 4.You might not talk to someone in a year and when you do, you both talk like you met yesterday. 5.All of Finland turns socially awkward during the fall/winter.

I have a friend who was clearly on the spectrum that moved there. He loves it. He spends most of the time holed up in his apartment researching weird topics online, making gifs and growing his beard.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 16-03-2019 4:24am

A lot of aspies have pushed themselves outlive and thrived Paddy.

Dan Akyroyd has Aspergers. Robin Williams was suspected of it , all the symptoms but never formally diagnosed.

Paddy Considine, Courtney Love, Susan Boyle, Woody Allen , Bill Gates

In American political history it's thought that JFK was on the spectrum.

Bobby regalled stories of his awkwardness. He hated being out there meeting people, his Dad just pushed him and pushed him.

He could play an act on screen and then go back into his shell. He was better suited to practical things and order, the reason why he was a miitary hero.

Wanderer78 · 16-03-2019 10:48am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote:

Paddy Considine, Courtney Love, Susan Boyle, Woody Allen , Bill Gates

I'd class love as being more so bipolar and bpd, but you could be right, they are commonly misdiagnosed

One eyed Jack · 16-03-2019 11:47am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A lot of aspies have pushed themselves outlive and thrived Paddy.

Dan Akyroyd has Aspergers. Robin Williams was suspected of it, all the symptoms but never formally diagnosed.

By whom?

Paddy Considine, Courtney Love, Susan Boyle, Woody Allen , Bill Gates

Bill Gates has never been diagnosed with any condition?

And how does Bill Gates fit in to this story? Mr. Gates, the phenomenally successful billionaire CEO of Microsoft, has been diagnosed by amateur, “armchair physicians” on the internet and in the media for years. His legendary eccentricities, including the habit of “rocking” and a disdain for the opinions of others, have led many to speculate that he is an “Aspie,” or sufferer of Asperger’s. While no doctor has ever given Mr. Gates an official diagnosis, he stands as a hero for many Aspies who look to his success with hope.

Bill Gates, Asperger's Syndrome, and your gifted child

I’m not going to comment on the other people on your list because I know fcukall about them.

In American political history it's thought that JFK was on the spectrum.

Bobby regalled stories of his awkwardness. He hated being out there meeting people, his Dad just pushed him and pushed him.

He could play an act on screen and then go back into his shell. He was better suited to practical things and order, the reason why he was a miitary hero.

Again, by whom?

This is the problem with backwards rationalising and attempting to associate famous people throughout history with conditions in order to popularise and normalise conditions like autism. You’ll never hear about the guy who delivers pizza or the child living in poverty who doesn’t qualify for Domicillary Care Alllowance because the assessors determined that since he could dress himself he doesn’t qualify. The reason he could dress himself is because his mother busted her gut to teach him how to dress himself in the first place!

It’s true that given the right supports, someone who is autistic can thrive, but when the DEASP are only looking for ways to ensure they don’t have to provide those supports, then whether or not autistic people are thought to have superior intellect or above average intelligence in one particular area doesn’t actually mean anything when they lack the support they need because they’re being put in the same category as Bill Gates, while the reality is for many young people who are autistic that they are actually struggling in many more ways than just fitting in in society.

Ubbquittious · 16-03-2019 10:22pm

With such a mad variety of optional symptoms how can they classify it as the one thing?

cnocbui · 16-03-2019 10:25pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

With such a mad variety of optional symptoms how can they classify it as the one thing?

A hint might be in the term 'spectrum.'

wiggle16 · 17-03-2019 4:59am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A lot of aspies have pushed themselves outlive and thrived Paddy.

Dan Akyroyd has Aspergers. Robin Williams was suspected of it , all the symptoms but never formally diagnosed.

Paddy Considine, Courtney Love, Susan Boyle, Woody Allen , Bill Gates

In American political history it's thought that JFK was on the spectrum.

Bobby regalled stories of his awkwardness. He hated being out there meeting people, his Dad just pushed him and pushed him.

He could play an act on screen and then go back into his shell. He was better suited to practical things and order, the reason why he was a miitary hero.

With respect, I think stuff like this is nonsense. No one can be assessed remotely for any condition, which is exactly what people do when they pronounce public figures, many of whom are dead or even historical, as having ASD. It's quackery and if we were talking about any other condition it would be called out as quackery.

In the case of Kennedy, it becomes ridiculous. One of the major traits associated with ASD and common to the majority of people who have it is great difficulty with social cues and interpersonal interaction - something that absolutely cannot be attributed to Kennedy, who everyone acknowledges was possessed of great charisma. The man knew exactly how to act and what to say no matter where he found himself - that doesn't mean he was comfortable with it. Being uncomfortable with social situations is very common among human beings. That's not the same as having autism.

I would be a very sociable person and I pick up on social cues and the nuances of speech and semantics very easily. In that sense, I would be classed as neurotypical. And that classification is probably correct.

At the same time, I second-guess myself constantly in what I say to others as I'm never sure I'm doing it right, I find social interaction absolutely exhausting, especially with people I don't know (I hate attending weddings with a passion), I am generally extremely socially awkward and I'm very much a creature of habit and although I'm adaptable in a practical sense, internally I find it very hard to cope with change. I obsess over things - I am obsessed with languages and can speak seven at this stage. I watched Der Untergang 24 times in a row at one point, in bloody German. I've been watching the Martin Bashir/Michael Jackson documentary over and over again on youtube for almost two weeks. I need to doodle constantly, my job involves manning a public helpline and I cannot address the caller's query unless I am scribbling or drawing.

In the above paragraph, as you go down that list of attributes, they go from being things that are common to many people, through to things which are very specific personal quirks.
Now, if you leave out my sociability, a casual, uninformed armchair diagnosis, such as which happens remotely with public figures as above, could easily class me as being "on the spectrum" or having "suspected ASD". But that is lazy and irresponsible. I don't have ASD. Yes, I'm as odd as two left feet, but I don't have ASD.

People seem to think it's okay to cherry pick traits generally associated with ASD and apply them to public or historical figures, and ignore or explain away those traits which would rule out a diagnosis (Albert Einstein is a classic example of someone to whom Asperger's has been retroactively misapplied and so many people believe he had ASD, when he definitely did not). This would not happen with any other condition and it trivialises it.

Myself I think throwing around "suspected" cases and labelling them accordingly, as well as generalising about autism (such as the nonsense about aspies in Finland above) is irresponsible quackery and hugely disrespectful to people with ASD.

AndrewJRenko · 17-03-2019 10:56am

wiggle16 wrote: »

With respect, I think stuff like this is nonsense. No one can be assessed remotely for any condition, which is exactly what people do when they pronounce public figures, many of whom are dead or even historical, as having ASD. It's quackery and if we were talking about any other condition it would be called out as quackery.

In the case of Kennedy, it becomes ridiculous. One of the major traits associated with ASD and common to the majority of people who have it is great difficulty with social cues and interpersonal interaction - something that absolutely cannot be attributed to Kennedy, who everyone acknowledges was possessed of great charisma. The man knew exactly how to act and what to say no matter where he found himself - that doesn't mean he was comfortable with it. Being uncomfortable with social situations is very common among human beings. That's not the same as having autism.

While I take your point about the reliability of retrospective, remote diagnosis, Asperger's is not incompatible with charisma. I've met Adam Harris (see earlier in the thread for his TedX talk) who has great charisma, while living with Asperger's.

cnocbui · 17-03-2019 11:38am

wiggle16 wrote: »

With respect, I think stuff like this is nonsense. No one can be assessed remotely for any condition, which is exactly what people do when they pronounce public figures, many of whom are dead or even historical, as having ASD. It's quackery and if we were talking about any other condition it would be called out as quackery.

I disagree. I was there when my son was assessed and diagnosed. I don't think there was anything about the process that couldn't be gleaned from written descriptions of people by others. I would completely agree that in some cases of historical figures, a considerable bit of reaching is going on but to simply say all such reach wrong conclusions is itself wrong. A good example would be Paul Dirac. Not a scintilla of doubt about a remote diagnosis there. Alan Turing is another. Rosalind Franklin, the discoverer of DNA, is a high probability. Personally I would be skeptical about Kennedy. The signs of Aspergers are are in some cases so identifiable that we can even reach a likely correct conclusion from fictional characters, like Sherlock Holmes and Mr Spock.

Sure for some there has to be some good degree of skepticism where people are far back in history, but that doesn't invalidate all retrospective labeling. I find it curious that certain people seem so upset about a harmless game of 'guess the Aspie'. You could actually make a very educational game out of it. Now, do I know anyone at the BBC.... hmm?

wiggle16 · 17-03-2019 1:53pm

cnocbui wrote: »

The signs of Aspergers are are in some cases so identifiable that we can even reach a likely correct conclusion from fictional characters, like Sherlock Holmes and Mr Spock.

Sure for some there has to be some good degree of skepticism where people are far back in history, but that doesn't invalidate all retrospective labeling. I find it curious that certain people seem so upset about a harmless game of 'guess the Aspie'. You could actually make a very educational game out of it. Now, do I know anyone at the BBC.... hmm?

You see, it's this kind of thing. Arthur Conan Doyle could not have designed his character to have Asperger's. It hadn't been identified at that point, as I'm sure you are aware. Spock is an alien and his character is typical of his species in Star Trek. You can't diagnose him with anything. I can't believe you seriously think that labelling historical and living people as having Asperger's based upon stereotypes has any educational value whatsoever. It's ludicrous.

I don't see the value in "guess the Aspie". All retrospective labelling is largely based on anecdote and isn't valid in the case of ASD. It would not be done for any other condition, certainly not on the scale that it is done in the case of ASD. You can pick anyone and "identify" autistic traits in them (such as in the example of myself above) and conveniently ignore everything else and come to the conclusion that they had ASD. They then go on lists of "suspected" cases. Suspected by armchair doctors, seldom by historians or psychologists.

It's interesting to note that in the vast majority of such lists of people retroactively diagnosed/speculated upon as having has ASD, the only criteria for a diagnosis seems to be a level of awkwardness and maybe a narrow range of interests combined with a particular talent or high level of intelligence, such as is done with Turing and Einstein, despite the fact that their range of interests was certainly not narrow. Both were polymaths, not Aspies. An attempt is then made to "claim" that person as having been an Aspie. It's as ridiculous as it is ignorant.

It's also interesting that no effort is made to claim people such as Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin or Pol Pot on such lists, which is quite telling about the motivation of the person compiling it. But of course, as you say, for some there has to be some degree of skepticism....

Fourier · 17-03-2019 1:57pm

It's hard to know. Dirac had a very domineering father who didn't allow him to speak English in the house despite their living in Britain. Other physicists often remarked on the rage he felt toward his father and his own statements that he had a difficult time speaking to others because he was never allowed socialise. Often remarking how he felt "free" when his father died. So asperger's or a really isolated upbringing? Hard to know.

Now Dirac was hilariously literal. There's the case of when Pauli lent him Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky and Dirac said it was "Nice" but that if you follow the text closely Dostoevsky makes a mistake by describing the sun as rising twice in one day [technically true]. Or in Forster's "Passage to India" where one of the characters was attacked in a cave, you never find out what exactly happened to her. The mystery being the whole point as the facts you hear in the book don't make sense together, it could have been one of the British or Indian characters who attacked her reflecting the confusion and tensions in India at the time. Dirac deduced that the only explanation was an unknown and totally out of left field third-party character was just hanging out in the cave and directly asked Forster if that was true (the answer was "No").

Also from a personal reading some of Dirac's "literal" remarks are to wind people up, e.g. asking if a ghost that haunted the castle he was staying in appeared at midnight under Greenwich or Daylight savings time.

Einstein having Aspergers is laughable I have to say. Often the diagnosis is going off superficial biographies or myths about him. Einstein was popular in school, an extrovert who liked parties, got top marks all the way through his education with a very high ability in language. The diagnosis is often based on the fact that he was a late talker and sometimes was reclusive. However these have the simple explanation that many intelligent boys are late talkers and Einstein went into seclusion to do his work, coming up with General Relativity isn't easy.

poisonated · 17-03-2019 10:25pm

My psychiatrist said he thinks I have aspergers.

Ulmus · 17-03-2019 11:15pm

http://heartlessaspergers.com/

A dark view of Asperger's. Website would be construed as hate speech by some.

17-03-2019 11:20pm

Ulmus wrote: »

http://heartlessaspergers.com/

A dark view of Asperger's. Website would be construed as hate speech by some.

Very interesting take. From the little I read I would disagree with the notion of their being an overlap with narcissism. I've a few glasses of wine drank and am in bed so don't have the brain power at the minute to get in to it but, narcissitic personality disorder is caused by a severe emotional wounding as a young child. It is down to neglectful parenting. At their core a narcissist is deeply broken.

brightspark · 17-03-2019 11:29pm

Ulmus wrote: »

http://heartlessaspergers.com/

A dark view of Asperger's. Website would be construed as hate speech by some.

If that site was referring to people with physical disabilities it would be shutdown!

It's almost saying that you are better living with an axe murderer than someone with ASD.

The fact is everyone has limitations, sure some are more average than others but everyone has things they excel at and things they couldn't do it their life depended on it.

Airyfairy12 · 18-03-2019 12:28am

brightspark wrote: »

If that site was referring to people with physical disabilities it would be shutdown!

It's almost saying that you are better living with an axe murderer than someone with ASD.

The fact is everyone has limitations, sure some are more average than others but everyone has things they excel at and things they couldn't do it their life depended on it.

But its not referring to physical disabilities. I have known quite a few people with ASD and they have all been cruel, manipulative and hateful, unless they wanted something, then they were sweet and friendly.
I didnt read anywhere in the article that its suggesting people with ASD are worse than murderers, just that sometimes people with ASD have such a lack of empathy that they can be abusive and very difficult to be around, im my own experience this is true. No ones allowed to talk about the pain or hurt theyve suffered at the hands of someone with ASD because it's a disability we're expected to get over the abuse or take it or make excuses for the abuser.
And im not saying that all people with ASD are like this, just like NT's can be hurtful and lack basic manners, everybody is different but there has been a common trait among the ASD's ive been close to.

eviltwin · 18-03-2019 12:38am

It wouldn't be my experience with AS. My youngest has too much empathy if anything. My eldest can struggle with it at times but she is not a heartless person. I have never met anyone on the spectrum that fits that sites description.

lbc2019 · 18-03-2019 12:41am

I was diagnosed as on the Autism spectrum a few months ago. No one is diagnosed with Aspergers anymore its an out of date term

pauliebdub · 18-03-2019 1:01am

I've worked with a few software engineers who would fall into the autism spectrum, very brainy guys but very poor communicators, monosyllabic and a habit of saying inappropriate things that would land them in trouble. A habit of looking at the floor when speaking with people.

poisonated · 18-03-2019 2:27am

lbc2019 wrote: »

I was diagnosed as on the Autism spectrum a few months ago. No one is diagnosed with Aspergers anymore its an out of date term

Well considering my psychiatrist said he thinks I have aspergers, I think you are incorrect.

Randle P. McMurphy · 18-03-2019 2:30am

wiggle16 wrote: »

With respect, I think stuff like this is nonsense. No one can be assessed remotely for any condition, which is exactly what people do when they pronounce public figures, many of whom are dead or even historical, as having ASD. It's quackery and if we were talking about any other condition it would be called out as quackery.

In the case of Kennedy, it becomes ridiculous. One of the major traits associated with ASD and common to the majority of people who have it is great difficulty with social cues and interpersonal interaction - something that absolutely cannot be attributed to Kennedy, who everyone acknowledges was possessed of great charisma. The man knew exactly how to act and what to say no matter where he found himself - that doesn't mean he was comfortable with it. Being uncomfortable with social situations is very common among human beings. That's not the same as having autism.

I would be a very sociable person and I pick up on social cues and the nuances of speech and semantics very easily. In that sense, I would be classed as neurotypical. And that classification is probably correct.

At the same time, I second-guess myself constantly in what I say to others as I'm never sure I'm doing it right, I find social interaction absolutely exhausting, especially with people I don't know (I hate attending weddings with a passion), I am generally extremely socially awkward and I'm very much a creature of habit and although I'm adaptable in a practical sense, internally I find it very hard to cope with change. I obsess over things - I am obsessed with languages and can speak seven at this stage. I watched Der Untergang 24 times in a row at one point, in bloody German. I've been watching the Martin Bashir/Michael Jackson documentary over and over again on youtube for almost two weeks. I need to doodle constantly, my job involves manning a public helpline and I cannot address the caller's query unless I am scribbling or drawing.

In the above paragraph, as you go down that list of attributes, they go from being things that are common to many people, through to things which are very specific personal quirks.
Now, if you leave out my sociability, a casual, uninformed armchair diagnosis, such as which happens remotely with public figures as above, could easily class me as being "on the spectrum" or having "suspected ASD". But that is lazy and irresponsible. I don't have ASD. Yes, I'm as odd as two left feet, but I don't have ASD.

People seem to think it's okay to cherry pick traits generally associated with ASD and apply them to public or historical figures, and ignore or explain away those traits which would rule out a diagnosis (Albert Einstein is a classic example of someone to whom Asperger's has been retroactively misapplied and so many people believe he had ASD, when he definitely did not). This would not happen with any other condition and it trivialises it.

Myself I think throwing around "suspected" cases and labelling them accordingly, as well as generalising about autism (such as the nonsense about aspies in Finland above) is irresponsible quackery and hugely disrespectful to people with ASD.

While difficulty with social cues and interpersonal interaction are common among people on the autism spectrum; they are not necessarily exhibited by all people on the spectrum. The same can be said for empathy or lack of it. Don't assume you or anyone else is not on the spectrum because they don't exhibit some of the major symptoms/behaviours. It's called a spectrum for a reason.

lbc2019 · 18-03-2019 2:35am

poisonated wrote: »

Well considering my psychiatrist said he thinks I have aspergers, I think you are incorrect.

Psychologists are the people largely responsible in this area

https://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/mental-health-aspergers-syndrome

Aspergers is no longer diagnosed

Wheres Me Jumper? · 18-03-2019 2:37am

poisonated wrote: »

Well considering my psychiatrist said he thinks I have aspergers, I think you are incorrect.

YOUR DOCTOR IS A FOOL

poisonated · 18-03-2019 2:47am

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

YOUR DOCTOR IS A FOOL

Wrong. But thanks for playing.i gave you a pity thanks as I feel that’s what you crave.

Wanderer78 · 18-03-2019 8:47am

lbc2019 wrote:

Aspergers is no longer diagnosed

I was diagnosed with aspergers not too long ago, it's still debated if it should have been included under the dsm umbrella, you can see it doesn't sit well with psychologist Tony attwood

TrustedApple · 18-03-2019 9:12am

Aspergers I meet a lot of people with it over the years.

A guy I went to college with had it and felt so sorry for him as he really had no social skills. Brains to burn as well. College eat him alive and it was quite sad to see.

I also went on a date a girl who had it, txt messages before we meet where grand and no issues talking to each other only did not get a few of my jokes (must people to ha). Meet her with in 20 mins I asked her do you have Aspergers? She said yes and to be far she was lovely girl and fantastic looking but huge social issues in person.

Then to myself as I have deslexa when I was last tested for it at 17 (leaving cert) they tought I fell heavily into haveing Aspergers. As explains my hate of socilness and not being very out going at the time and so on. Never fully got tested but when I went to college the learning disability dept said to me you don't have it as your to social, you keep a convo going and you are aware of doing things right or wrong.

But to this day I still thing I fall on it as I think very black and white when I work its wrong or its right and no in between and I have been told by a manger that I am a extramly boring person in meetings as its fact after fact and actions we can do to fix that fact and so on.

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 12:07pm

lbc2019 wrote: »

I was diagnosed as on the Autism spectrum a few months ago. No one is diagnosed with Aspergers anymore its an out of date term

Personally I think lumping Aspergers in with Autism was a big mistake and in a few years time it will be back as a separate thing.

fattymuatty · 18-03-2019 12:11pm

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

But its not referring to physical disabilities. I have known quite a few people with ASD and they have all been cruel, manipulative and hateful, unless they wanted something, then they were sweet and friendly.
I didnt read anywhere in the article that its suggesting people with ASD are worse than murderers, just that sometimes people with ASD have such a lack of empathy that they can be abusive and very difficult to be around, im my own experience this is true. No ones allowed to talk about the pain or hurt theyve suffered at the hands of someone with ASD because it's a disability we're expected to get over the abuse or take it or make excuses for the abuser.
And im not saying that all people with ASD are like this, just like NT's can be hurtful and lack basic manners, everybody is different but there has been a common trait among the ASD's ive been close to.

I know a lot of people who would agree with you and yes to the not being allowed to talk about it. I am in some closed groups for those in a relationship with people with ASD, they have to be closed because if someone with ASD reads they them talk over everyone and tell them they their experiences are wrong. I know in these groups it is very common that the partner of the person with ASD suspects their partner is either a narcissist or a psychopath before their partner is diagnosed with ASD.

Being in a relationship with someone with ASD can be a very lonely thing and some behaviour, if it both parties in the relationship were NT would for sure be seen as abusive. Not all of course but a significant enough amount that there are many support groups for those in and who have left relationships with those with ASD.

Ever met someone with Aspergers?

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