Schengen area preclearce at DUB?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 05-06-2020 11:58am #1

In the early 2000's, our government was a staunch advocate if joining Schengen, but we couldn't and still can't because of the open border and CTA.

Would a compromise be that you can "enter the Schengen Zone" at DUB the same way you "enter the US" in preclearce.

That way you can step off the plane and walk straight out into Madrid etc.

I'm digressing here, but apart from the open border, the CTA shows a few cracks. Fir example, Ireland allows South Africans in visa free but the UK doesn't. What's stopping a South African from flying to DUB and then LHR, LBA, LCY etc?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 16-06-2020 1:22pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

I take it this is a non-runner so

murphaph · 16-06-2020 2:17pm

Dublin airport doesn't even implement the CTA properly as it is. You are forced through passport control on CTA flights. In the UK you land as a domestic passenger and walk out the door.

I'm afraid the logistics of this would be very difficult in an airport not specifically built to handle these separate streams of passengers.

You would need to build a preclearance facility except much larger.

VG31 · 16-06-2020 2:33pm

murphaph wrote: »

Dublin airport doesn't even implement the CTA properly as it is. You are forced through passport control on CTA flights. In the UK you land as a domestic passenger and walk out the door.

Whatever about CTA flights, it's a complete joke that you have to go through passport control on domestic flights. Domestic flights should be bussed to a domestic arrivals corridor.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 16-06-2020 2:44pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

If a hard border goes up north because of Brexit I would love to see us join Schengen.

In fact, I might be mistaken but I think Junker said he (and the commission in general) would like to see the entire EU in Schengen.

Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria are in the process of implementation.

Ireland and Cyprus are granted opt outs because of "border issues".

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 16-06-2020 2:48pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

I've flown to LCY, LBA, Jersey, Glasgow, Isle of Man, Southampton.

It's wonderful just stepping off the plane and going straight for the bus, train or taxi.

I will agree with the poster above. I once flew KIR to DUB and went through immigration with a queue miles long. Bonkers.

Flickerfusion · 16-06-2020 2:53pm

I've always wondered why we couldn't just issue and recognise Schengen Visas, even if we had to maintain an external border to maintain the CTA.

There is no common UK and Ireland visa system that is equivalent to Schengen. So we are issuing our own visas anyway as it is. So, in theory we could issue a visa to someone the UK wouldn't have or they could issue one that we wouldn't have signed off on and it's still a common travel area.

Also the Schengen Visa only ever applied to short term travel (under 90 days). It has never applied to work permits, residency or citizenship.

All EU nationals already have 100% access to Ireland anyway, regardless of Schengen. In fact, we actually have one of the easiest processes in Europe, without bureaucratic hurdles as you do not have to register to live here. You do in most of the continent i.e. if I were to move to Brussels in the morning, I would have to register with the Brussels City Hall within a certain number of days if I'm intending to live there.

The UK is extremely unlikely, despite the rhetoric, to bar EU nationals from travel without visas. It would be out of line with most of the rest of the planet, including the USA if it were to do that and it would end UK citizens prospects of easy travel to the EU.

So, I would suspect what you'll have, when the dust settles, is a 90-day visa waiver between the UK and EU (and the CTA in Ireland). That means in reality the UK will only be controlling long term stays and work permits for those coming in from the EU (except Ireland) and I would assume that would work the other way around too.

I can't therefore see how Ireland couldn't at least implement most of Schengen and the completely border free aspect is somewhat irrelevant here anyway as you have to pass through a port or airport, and that inevitably requires checks anyway.

murphaph · 16-06-2020 8:30pm

The US requires the citizens of some EU states to obtain a visa before traveling. It's been a bone of contention between the EU and US for years.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 17-06-2020 7:45pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

I think Cyprus is the only remaining EU country whose citizens require a visa.

CBear1993 · 18-06-2020 11:35am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

If a hard border goes up north because of Brexit I would love to see us join Schengen.

In fact, I might be mistaken but I think Junker said he (and the commission in general) would like to see the entire EU in Schengen.

Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria are in the process of implementation.

Ireland and Cyprus are granted opt outs because of "border issues".

There will never be a hard border between the occupied 6 and the remaining 26. Really really couldn't see it. Can you imagine the pandemonium that would ensue before it would even go up.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 20-06-2020 12:29pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

CBear1993 wrote: »

There will never be a hard border between the occupied 6 and the remaining 26. Really really couldn't see it. Can you imagine the pandemonium that would ensue before it would even go up.

I was thinking the same.
A United Ireland is probably more likely than a hard border.

If a United Ireland ever happens, I'd love to see us join Schengen rather than maintain the CTA for appeasing the unionists who'll only represent 1/6 or 1/7 of the UI population.

CBear1993 · 20-06-2020 1:25pm

The planters will all flock back to Scotland and reside in sh*tholes like Ayr

cgcsb · 20-06-2020 1:31pm

Why would you want to join schengen? Much better to control border policy here. In practice the CTA with the UK is one way only. Passengers arriving from the UK have the same controls as from everywhere else. Also I've landed in Spain's smaller airports many times on flights from Ireland and found the passport desk unmanned and just walked out. I doubt they care they just know there's a flight arriving from somewhere else in the EU so don't go through formalities

Seamai · 20-06-2020 1:46pm

CBear1993 wrote: »

The planters will all flock back to Scotland and reside in sh*tholes like Ayr

Off with them, otherwise we'll be bending over backwards to placate them at every turn. There is no way that they are going to settle for being the 12 to 15% minority in a united Ireland when they've had the upper hand for so long.

Personally I'd rather we were in the Schengen area. The CTA is of little benefit to me personally, I'm rarely in the UK and living in Cork I've only been north of the border twice in my lifetime, maybe I'd feel differently if I was living in a border county.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 20-06-2020 7:57pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

cgcsb wrote: »

Why would you want to join schengen? Much better to control border policy here. In practice the CTA with the UK is one way only. Passengers arriving from the UK have the same controls as from everywhere else. Also I've landed in Spain's smaller airports many times on flights from Ireland and found the passport desk unmanned and just walked out. I doubt they care they just know there's a flight arriving from somewhere else in the EU so don't go through formalities

That's interesting.

I remember landing in Reus years ago several times and this was the case.
However, since 2017 scanning passports or ID cards at border checks is mandatory if I'm not mistaken.

Was this recently?

cgcsb · 22-06-2020 9:02am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

That's interesting.

I remember landing in Reus years ago several times and this was the case.
However, since 2017 scanning passports or ID cards at border checks is mandatory if I'm not mistaken.

Was this recently?

Last year I walked into Gran Canaria. It was the evening time, airport was quiet, not many arrivals, just my flight and some flights from Germany and the rest of Spain. But this is only the most recent occasion, it's a common occurance in the canaries. Also Bilbao I was waved straight through with passport in hand but nobody looked at it. My passport is always looked at several times when leaving through Dublin so maybe that's why they're not so fussed on the other end.

murphaph · 23-06-2020 12:59pm

Interesting. I've never experienced that. I mostly fly between Dublin and Berlin and they check all passports carefully and painfully slowly. I wish Ireland was in Schengen but unless and until there's a united Ireland then the republic will not practically or politically be able to join Schengen. Even post UI I'd say it's unlikely as the roles will have reversed in NI but be equally valid, ie unionists would have a legitimate claim to maintaining the CTA over us joining Schengen. A lot of people who have nothing in common with your average unionist would favour the CTA over Schengen. The Dublin London corridor is one of the busiest in the world.

I can understand that the CTA might win out over Schengen for some considerable time to come, unfortunately for me.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 26-06-2020 7:45pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

What I'd like to see happening.

The UK flip flop and do a U Turn and have another successful referendum to stay in the EU. Then the EU tells them the only way they can come back is with full integration. Euro, Schengen etc.

I can only imagine the mess around in Dublin.
If they check passports from Donegal would they respect Schengen?

whomitconcerns · 27-06-2020 1:54pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think Cyprus is the only remaining EU country whose citizens require a visa.

Nope Romanians definitely still need a visa and I am guessing Bulgarians too.

Credit Checker Moose · 27-06-2020 8:28pm

You are correct.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 28-06-2020 1:18pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

I wouldn't mind the reimposition of border checks at Newry, Derry, etc. if it allowed us to join Schengen.

Infact, border infrastructure might expedite a united Ireland if partition is accentuated with visible boundaries.

coylemj · 28-06-2020 4:32pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the reimposition of border checks at Newry, Derry, etc. if it allowed us to join Schengen.

You might not but the people flying to GB from the Republic would mind big time if they had to join passport queues in GB airports. The border on the island of Ireland is not capable of being closed to stop unauthorised people movement.

Even the unionist Stormont goverment never attempted to impose passport checks on people movement across the border. Any checks that were carried out at border crossings (e.g. RUC or NI customs officers searching luggage on trains and buses) were more about revenue and less about security or immigration.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Infact, border infrastructure might expedite a united Ireland if partition is accentuated with visible boundaries.

If that was remotely true, we'd have had a United Ireland since the 1970s. I'm talking about a period when crossing the border involved passing a pillbox (Aughnacloy) or a watchtower (South Armagh) with British soldiers pointing guns at you. Would that have met your critera for 'visible boundaries'?

Victor · 28-06-2020 4:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Also I've landed in Spain's smaller airports many times on flights from Ireland and found the passport desk unmanned and just walked out. I doubt they care they just know there's a flight arriving from somewhere else in the EU so don't go through formalities

Don't you need pre-clearance when flying to Spain? They know who is coming.

coylemj · 28-06-2020 5:58pm

Victor wrote: »

Don't you need pre-clearance when flying to Spain? They know who is coming.

I thought the purpose of pre-clearance was to spot any intended passengers who are on a 'no fly' list or who are generally considered undesirable so that the airline can be told to deny them boarding. It was never intended as a substitute for passport checks when you arrive. Because I've never entered mainland Spain or the Canaries without a passport check.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 28-06-2020 10:23pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

coylemj wrote: »

You might not but the people flying to GB from the Republic would mind big time if they had to join passport queues in GB airports. The border on the island of Ireland is not capable of being closed to stop unauthorised people movement.

Even the unionist Stormont goverment never attempted to impose passport checks on people movement across the border. Any checks that were carried out at border crossings (e.g. RUC or NI customs officers searching luggage on trains and buses) were more about revenue and less about security or immigration.

If that was remotely true, we'd have had a United Ireland since the 1970s. I'm talking about a period when crossing the border involved passing a pillbox (Aughnacloy) or a watchtower (South Armagh) with British soldiers pointing guns at you. Would that have met your critera for 'visible boundaries'?

There are no passport checks ROI - GB but there are from GB - ROI, so I'll agree to disagree on that point. If infrastructure is placed on the border, NI to GB will still remain passport free so unionists won't have ruffled feathers.

The 1970's are different, the nationalist population has exploded since so infrastructure may be the tipping point to make more passive nationalist become more vocal.

Credit Checker Moose · 28-06-2020 10:24pm

If infrastructure is placed on the border

It will be blown up within a week.

coylemj · 29-06-2020 1:16am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

There are no passport checks ROI - GB but there are from GB - ROI, so I'll agree to disagree on that point.

What 'point' are you talking about? Passengers arriving from everywhere have to go through passport control because Dublin airport has seen fit to not bother segregating them. Even if we signed up to Schengen, we'd still have to queue for passport control when arriving home from Spain, France etc. As we do today.

On your original proposal for Schengen preclearance in Dublin, who do you think would provide the personnel? US preclearance is done by CBP officials who are employees of the US Government.

wandererz · 29-06-2020 1:24am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Fir example, Ireland allows South Africans in visa free but the UK doesn't. What's stopping a South African from flying to DUB and then LHR, LBA, LCY etc?

It's the duty of the airline to check that passengers have the correct passports to travel visa free ROI-GB.
Or that they have the correct visas.
Severe financial penalties if they don't or if they make a mistake.

wandererz · 29-06-2020 1:33am

The Common Travel Area between ROI and UK precedes the EU.
It allows visa-free travel between the two countries.
And after Brexit it allows that and the right for Irish citizens to live and work in the UK without a permit and vice versa.

(strangely enough, that was not publicised very much by the Brits pre-referendum and during the Brexit process).

For Irish Schengen to work, one would have to give up that right with the UK.

Personally, I'm OK with having to deal with the few minutes of scrutiny at an EU airport during the few times of the year I travel there compared to missing out on any possible jobs in the UK.

This way one can choose to live and work in the EU and the UK.

Only issue I have with the CTA is the ease with which the Brits can bring Covid-19 to Ireland (high risk Country to low risk).

I'm not OK with that and think there should be a mechanism for it to be paused during... ahem... unprecedented times

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 29-06-2020 10:18am

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

coylemj wrote: »

What 'point' are you talking about? Passengers arriving from everywhere have to go through passport control because Dublin airport has seen fit to not bother segregating them. Even if we signed up to Schengen, we'd still have to queue for passport control when arriving home from Spain, France etc. As we do today.

On your original proposal for Schengen preclearance in Dublin, who do you think would provide the personnel? US preclearance is done by CBP officials who are employees of the US Government.

The CTA is more of a gentleman's agreement and less of a legally binding one, the Schengen Arrangement is binding though.

If Ireland joined Schengen DUB would be obliged to segregate.

Caranica · 29-06-2020 10:42am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

There are no passport checks ROI - GB but there are from GB - ROI, so I'll agree to disagree on that point. If infrastructure is placed on the border, NI to GB will still remain passport free so unionists won't have ruffled feathers.

Sounds like you've never flown in to Bristol airport. Irish flights go through passport control, UK flights don't.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 29-06-2020 10:45am

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

Caranica wrote: »

Sounds like you've never flown in to Bristol airport. Irish flights go through passport control, UK flights don't.

Does Bristol force Irish flights through passport control?

I've flown to Southampton, LCY, LBA, Jersey and a few others and never been through passport in the UK.

coylemj · 29-06-2020 12:53pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

The CTA is more of a gentleman's agreement and less of a legally binding one, the Schengen Arrangement is binding though.

No, it's the complete opposite. If Schengen is 'binding', how come there are so many of it's internal borders currently closed?

Any signatory to Schenen can impose border controls any time they choose 'in the event that a serious threat to public policy or internal security has been established'. The net effect is that any Schengen country can close their border any time they choose to. For example, to prevent the spread of the Covid virus, Portugal has closed its border with Spain from May 15th with a planned reopening on June 30th (tomorrow).

Whereas the CTA is based on legislation. Specifically the Ireland Act 1949 which was passed by the UK Parliament to deal with the legislative fallout after we declared ourseves to be a Republic in 1948. That act states that the Republic is not considered a foreign country which in effect means that when a citizen of the republic arrives in Britain, they do not have to show a passport and can immediately register to vote in parliamentary elections.

S.2 It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41

coylemj · 29-06-2020 1:04pm

Caranica wrote: »

Sounds like you've never flown in to Bristol airport. Irish flights go through passport control, UK flights don't.

Sounds like you were bussed to the wrong arrivals door when you flew there. I've flown through Bristol lots of times and never encountered a passport check.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 29-06-2020 2:32pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

coylemj wrote: »

No, it's the complete opposite. If Schengen is 'binding', how come there are so many of it's internal borders currently closed?

Any signatory to Schenen can impose border controls any time they choose 'in the event that a serious threat to public policy or internal security has been established'. The net effect is that any Schengen country can close their border any time they choose to. For example, to prevent the spread of the Covid virus, Portugal has closed its border with Spain from May 15th with a planned reopening on June 30th (tomorrow).

Whereas the CTA is based on legislation. Specifically the Ireland Act 1949 which was passed by the UK Parliament to deal with the legislative fallout after we declared ourseves to be a Republic in 1948. That act states that the Republic is not considered a foreign country which in effect means that when a citizen of the republic arrives in Britain, they do not have to show a passport and can immediately register to vote in parliamentary elections.

S.2 It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41

I doff my hat.

I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong.

Caranica · 29-06-2020 3:22pm

coylemj wrote: »

Sounds like you were bussed to the wrong arrivals door when you flew there. I've flown through Bristol lots of times and never encountered a passport check.

Every time I've flown there (about twice per rugby season for last few years, Bristol is handy for a lot of venues). The last time I was there, a Scottish friend arrived on a flight from Edinburgh at the same time. We chatted walking to the terminal then the Edinburgh flight was waved through and the Dublin flight had to go through passport control. At UK and Ireland arrivals, same as always.

Jacovs · 29-06-2020 3:30pm

wandererz wrote: »

It's the duty of the airline to check that passengers have the correct passports to travel visa free ROI-GB.
Or that they have the correct visas.
Severe financial penalties if they don't or if they make a mistake.

I am a SA citizen living in Ireland and had to go London couple months ago. Applied for the relevant visa, cost about €200 total. Boarding pass on phone so no need to go to check in. Only person i came into contact with was the person at the boarding gate. Barely half a glance at my passport and onto the plane. No question about visa. No passport control on arrival in London either.

So yes it lies with airlines but I personally have found it to not be as strictly enforced as it should be.

coylemj · 29-06-2020 4:12pm

Caranica wrote: »

The last time I was there, a Scottish friend arrived on a flight from Edinburgh at the same time. We chatted walking to the terminal then the Edinburgh flight was waved through and the Dublin flight had to go through passport control. At UK and Ireland arrivals, same as always.

1. I have never been sent to passport control when I landed in a UK airport and I've been to Bristol lots of times, including for rugby in Bath.

2. In any airport, inbound passengers from different flights and destined for passport/no passport processing would never be allowed to mingle in the way you described.

Caranica · 29-06-2020 5:02pm

coylemj wrote: »

1. I have never been sent to passport control when I landed in a UK airport and I've been to Bristol lots of times, including for rugby in Bath.

2. In any airport, inbound passengers from different flights and destined for passport/no passport processing would never be allowed to mingle in the way you described.

I'm telling you my experience on both accounts.

The incident with mingling was due to both aircraft being parked adjacent to each other (one Ryanair one easyJet) and both sets of passengers walking to the terminal. We met as we approached the terminal building.

coylemj · 29-06-2020 5:33pm

Caranica wrote: »

The incident with mingling was due to both aircraft being parked adjacent to each other (one Ryanair one easyJet) and both sets of passengers walking to the terminal. We met as we approached the terminal building.

Allowing (or failing to prevent) passengers from different inbound flights mingling with one another is how the system of allowing passengers from UK flights to bypass passport control fell apart in Dublin airport.

It all started when Ryanair started dumping inbound passengers on the apron outside the old Pier 'A' because they wouldn't pay for the use of a jetbridge. This resulted in passengers coming from the UK being 'contaminated' by mixing with people arriving from other countries so everyone had to be sent through passport control.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 29-06-2020 9:28pm

Remain in the CTA and stay out of Schengen

coylemj wrote: »

Allowing (or failing to prevent) passengers from different inbound flights mingling with one another is how the system of allowing passengers from UK flights to bypass passport control fell apart in Dublin airport.

It all started when Ryanair started dumping inbound passengers on the apron outside the old Pier 'A' because they wouldn't pay for the use of a jetbridge. This resulted in passengers coming from the UK being 'contaminated' by mixing with people arriving from other countries so everyone had to be sent through passport control.

I used T2 with WX from LCY.

FR don't use T2 but I was still forced through INIS.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 24-10-2020 2:42pm

Ireland expressed interest in joining Schengen but we couldn't because the UK were granted an exemption.

Why did the UK seek an exemption in the first place and why were the EU so forthcoming in granting that exemption?

Schengen area preclearce at DUB?

Which would you prefer 13 votes

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