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'Witch anger at Catholic club ban'

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  • 18-06-2009 11:06pm
    #1
    brummytom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭



    A witches' coven leader has accused the Roman Catholic Church of prejudice after her group was banned from a parish social club.
    Sandra Davis, 61, high priestess of the Crystal Cauldron group, booked Our Lady's club in Stockport, Greater Manchester for a Halloween Ball.
    But when she tried to pay she was told the Diocese of Shrewsbury had decided the pagan group could not use it.

    A diocese spokesman said the group was not compatible with the club's "ethos".
    Mrs Davis, of Bridgehall, set up the Crystal Cauldron in Reddish as a pagan meeting place.

    Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8107260.stm
    Mrs Davis has since found a new venue for the ball and said it was a family event open to everyone.
    Witchcraft - fun for all the family


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    #2
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    Copied from AH rather than moved.


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    #3
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    What else did she expect the Diocese of Shrewsbury to say?

    The audio clip is just plain hilarious. She says she didn't expect that to happen in this day and age? What? The Catholic Church not to allow her to practice witchcraft which is against Catholicism on Catholic property?

    "Burning times are still in peoples mind". What is this woman on? She may mean well but this is just ridiculous.


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    #4
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hosting a hollow'een ball is not practising witchcraft.
    The hall said it was available for public bookings.


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    #5
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Hosting a hollow'een ball is not practising witchcraft.
    The hall said it was available for public bookings.

    They also have discretion to reject anything that goes against a Catholic ethos on their premises. Some churches are more liberal than others on who they let into their hall. For example a church near where I live allowed Muslims in for their Friday prayers while they were finding another location for themselves. Some wouldn't dare dream of that though.

    Just because bookings are public does not mean that there should be no restrictions on what kind of events should be allowed. The fact that this woman tries to whip this up into a persecution issue is the funny part really.


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    #6
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The Catholic Church not to allow her to practice witchcraft which is against Catholicism on Catholic property?

    Go on then, I'll bite.

    What's your source for saying witchcraft is "against Catholicism"?

    For me the most interesting paragraph was:
    "It's not black witches and pointy hats, and we're not devil worshippers. We respect everybody's religion and we're trying not to have things in the shadows."

    Who would have guessed the catholic church would not show understanding or openness... :rolleyes:


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    #7
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Dyflin wrote: »
    Go on then, I'll bite.

    What's your source for saying witchcraft is "against Catholicism"?

    By against I mean that witchcraft is forbidden in Catholicism and all mainstream forms of Christianity. Hence it is against the ethos to have any event associated with it in a church.
    Dyflin wrote: »
    Who would have guessed the catholic church would not show understanding or openness... :rolleyes:

    It's the property of the Catholic Church. I think it is fine if they do not want to promote witchcraft which is going against their religion on their premises.

    What do you mean by understand and be open? This generally does not mean handing over your property when it breaches your ethos.


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    #8
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    If that is the case then they should have taken the booking and they're policies should be amended is it not advailbile to the public but advailible under certain terms and conditions only.


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    #9
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    If that is the case then they should have taken the booking and they're policies should be amended is it not advailbile to the public but advailible under certain terms and conditions only.

    You aren't explaining yourself very well as to why.

    If bookings are subject to being acceptable by the ethos surely it was perfectly reasonable to tell this group to go elsewhere.

    It's avaliable to the public under certain conditions.

    You sound as if the term "being avaliable to the public" means you cannot have conditions or rules on bookings.


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    #10
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The booking was accepted, they accepted the booking in good faith so did she and when she went to pay the depoist she was refushed, she was messed about. That sort of stuff would pissed me off no matter what sort of an event I was planning.


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    #11
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    yes the [any] church has a right to not let in the club any thing wich goes against there belief ,but i question is ,as these witches were not there to practice there religion on the premises, just holding a dance,would the church stop protestant/muslim/jewish people also from booking the hall to have a party or dance ?


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    #12
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The booking was accepted, they accepted the booking in good faith so did she and when she went to pay the depoist she was refushed, she was messed about. That sort of stuff would pissed me off no matter what sort of an event I was planning.

    Problems of beauocracy happen everywhere. They probably should have been more immediate in telling her no, but they had every right to tell her no under the grounds that it is against Catholicism to have anything to do with the promotion of practice of witchcraft. Their premises, their rules.

    getz: If the dance was to promote Islam, Judaism or any other religion I'm pretty sure that they would have told them no. However if it is entirely open and if it isn't for this purpose that would have probably been okay. It is up to them to decide what is kosher or not kosher on their property.

    Generally you wouldn't have a pig market in a synagogue, likewise you wouldn't have an event promoting witchcraft on church property.


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    #13
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    was the dance to promote witch craft ?if it was i would agree with you.the publicity the coven has got out of this could not be better for them.


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    #14
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    getz wrote: »
    was the dance to promote witch craft ?if it was i would agree with you.the publicity the coven has got out of this could not be better for them.

    Just listen to the audio clip on the BBC site. Sensationalist language. It's almost like the front page of tabloid newspaper. Anything that criticises Christianity or the Church gets publicity, it's just the way that society has gone :)


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    #15
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    on recollection in most church schools in england[i am not sure if this has one] to be able to get goverment grants they have to have a catchment of children from other religions, during prayers it is standard practice for them to be provided a area on the churches premises for their prayers,so its not as though this is a big deal .


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    #16
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I worked in a pub in London for a while. Our function room could be booked by the public. It was still private property, and we reserved the right to refuse booking. It was still available to the public, but certain types of events were refused for various reasons.

    This was a coven of witches, booking a halloween party. Halloween is a big day on the calender for witches IIRC, so its not just a fancy dress party.

    Ironically though, the RCC don't seem to have issue with their adherants celebrating what is a pagan feast anyway.

    Either way though, its far from persecution. It is discrimination, but so what. Discrimination is not automatically this horrid word.

    'We are members of the anti-catholic league, could we rent your church for a seminar'.
    'NO'
    'Why'
    'Because you are from the anti-catholic league, and this is a catholic church'
    'Thats discrimination'
    'Yes, it is, but it is justified.'

    Witchcraft is no different, as it is in opposition to God. So someone who claims to be God fearing, would be quite entitled to discriminate against a coven of witches celebrating one of their feasts on his property.


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    #17
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Against which God? There are many according to pagan beliefs and this is the Paganism forum.


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    #18
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Witchcraft is no different, as it is in opposition to God.

    I know wiccan's will be more than able to stand up for themselves, but the only opposition is in the mind of the catholics. The coven probably wouldn't give a flying **** who owns the hall, they only wanted a location (indoors as it's late Autumn) to hold their dance. There's no mention of any rituals, rites or nakedness anywhere. It was a Halloween Ball with an ABBA tribute act! Halloween isn't even a wiccan holiday ffs!

    But stepping back from the details, it's a win-win situation. The catholics can go back to being small minded holier than thou's thinking they have saved their immortal souls and the wiccan group gets wide and free publicity and you can bet all the tickets for the new location are well sold out by now.


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    #19
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Against which God? There are many according to pagan beliefs and this is the Paganism forum.

    I think it's quite obvious which God is being referred to if we are discussing Catholicism.

    If the Wiccans don't care who owns the hall. They can respect that the Catholic Church owns that hall and they can go elsewhere so as not to break their ethos out of respect.

    Theres nothing small minded about it. Their religion prohibits it, therefore they cannot endorse or encourage witchcraft.

    Is your problem with the fact that the Catholics refused, or with the Judeo-Christian value behind why they refused. I'm starting to think it is the latter.


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    #20
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dyflin wrote: »
    I know wiccan's will be more than able to stand up for themselves, but the only opposition is in the mind of the catholics. The coven probably wouldn't give a flying **** who owns the hall, they only wanted a location (indoors as it's late Autumn) to hold their dance. There's no mention of any rituals, rites or nakedness anywhere. It was a Halloween Ball with an ABBA tribute act! Halloween isn't even a wiccan holiday ffs!

    Well, its their perogative. Witchcraft is particularly heinous to alot of Christians, so maybe they just did not such folk useing their hall. I'm surprised that those who call themselves witches are actually surprised by what happened.
    But stepping back from the details, it's a win-win situation. The catholics can go back to being small minded holier than thou's thinking they have saved their immortal souls and the wiccan group gets wide and free publicity and you can bet all the tickets for the new location are well sold out by now.

    Indeed. Insults about small mindedness aside, I'm sure the witches will just find somewhere else and the proprietors will be happy not to be hosting the event.


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    #21
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Against which God? There are many according to pagan beliefs and this is the Paganism forum.

    This seems a little obtuse of you. No offence was intended, but in the context of a 'Catholic' hall, I would have thought it was obvious. You are obviously making a point, but I'm not sure what it is?


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    #22
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think it's quite obvious which God is being referred to if we are discussing Catholicism.

    Given that this is the paganism forum and the beliefs of those here do not recognise the christian's gods dominion over them or the earth and all humans on it please respect this by making sure you are referencing the christian god by referencing to him as that and not assuming to mention god with a capital G auto magically references him.

    Thank you.

    JimiTime wrote: »
    Well, its their perogative. Witchcraft is particularly heinous to alot of Christians, so maybe they just did not such folk useing their hall. I'm surprised that those who call themselves witches are actually surprised by what happened.

    The U.K. is a lot more accepting of paganism and it is more highly publicly visible then over here and if she had never run into this sort of discrimination before then I can understand why she'd be shocked and surprised esp after they initially accepted the booking.


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    #23
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The U.K. is a lot more accepting of paganism and it is more highly publicly visible then over here and if she had never run into this sort of discrimination before then I can understand why she'd be shocked and surprised esp after they initially accepted the booking.


    Fair enough. I still completely understand why a witches coven is discriminated against from a catholic organisation. It really should not be surprising IMO.


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    #24
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The U.K. is a lot more accepting of paganism and it is more highly publicly visible then over here and if she had never run into this sort of discrimination before then I can understand why she'd be shocked and surprised esp after they initially accepted the booking.

    This isn't discrimination. It's entirely fair. You ask for an event in a Catholic owned centre / hall. All applications are done by the rules. If your application violates the rules or in this case the ethos you cannot book the hall. Anything to do with witchcraft violates a Catholic ethos, therefore the coven could not book the hall.

    That's fair enough. As I say, it's like expecting to have a barbeque with pork in a Jewish community centre. If I wanted to cook pork I would go elsewhere.

    This woman probably means well, but the audio clip on the BBC link is totally off the wall. The guy interviewing her even asks her "Don't they have a right to tell you not to have this event on their premises?". You can tell that he doesn't agree with her either. It's only common sense that witchcraft isn't tolerated in buildings owned by a Christian church. Theres nothing shocking about it surely?


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    #25
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination
    1648

    1 a: the act of discriminating b: the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently2: the quality or power of finely distinguishing3 a: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminating
    Main Entry:
    dis·crim·i·nat·ing
    Function:
    adjective
    Date:
    1647

    1: making a distinction : distinguishing <a discriminating mark>2: marked by discrimination: a: discerning, judicious <discriminating buyers> b: discriminatory <accused of discriminating practices>

    They are discriminating, but I never said that was a bad thing at all, infact pagans will discriminate as they do not believe that witchcraft is for everyone or paganism and will refuse to deal with, train or initate people they do not wish to or feel are not fit to be.

    There are more meanings and nusances to that word then you think and you are seeking to be offended, we all discriminate.


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    #26
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This isn't discrimination.

    I think that technically it is, but so what? 'Discrimination' sems to be a dirty word, as it conjurs up 'No Blacks' type things. Discrimination is not automatically bad. A Nazi discriminating against a Jew is bad, as its racist discrimination. A Jew discriminating against a Nazi is an entirely different matter. You know what I mean?


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    #27
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Applying the rules of the ethos to every application is about as fair as you will get. Witchcraft just happens not to be acceptable under said ethos but every application is considered equally.


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    #28
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    They accepted the application and then went back on it, they screwed up /shrug and if she's shocked cos she has never been discriminated like that before then that's her take on it.

    I do have a problem with so called community centres which are parish halls in disguise and will happily availd of community grants which call for the 'community centre' to be at the disposal of all the members of the community but then suddenly theres an issue
    when a member of the community who is not a member of the local parish wishes to use the space and lo and behold the parish hall ethos is applied.


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    #29
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Yes, they reviewed it and they found it violated the ethos. Fair game.

    It's not the fact that this person wasn't a Catholic, it's because they are promoting activity that is against the ethos. Hence they were rejected. I've yet to see what I am meant to be surprised about?


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    #30
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    You are not, she was if thats how she feels about it then thats how she feels about it.


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    #31
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ironically though, the RCC don't seem to have issue with their adherants celebrating what is a pagan feast anyway.
    The RCC has the holidays of All Saints and All Souls and to them Hallowe'en marks the start of that. There is a historical relationship between the two, but that does not make them the same.

    The idea that [insert Christian holiday here] is one and the same as [insert Pagan holiday here] comes up in two ways. One is some Pagans who try to claim some sort of superiority on this basis, and the other is some Christians who don't celebrate some of the holidays in question and try to claim some sort of superiority on that basis (as well as deliberately conflating bigotry against Catholics and bigotry against Pagans so one can feed on the other). Neither argument rings true to my mind.


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