Referred from Small Claims to District Court.

bobgaf · 30-05-2020 12:01am #1

Hi.
looking for some advice from anyone who has been referred from the Small Claims Court to the District Court. That's my option now.
Does the fact that the District Court option has been offered mean the Registrar deems there to be some merit to the case ?
Is there any attempt at mediation by the Registrar before the court case or is it straight to court, whenever that may be ?
I understand the other party as a business has to have legal representation on the day. Is this correct ?
If so, the amount in question will be going straight to the legal representation even if I lose.
Thanks.

coylemj · 30-05-2020 12:39pm

bobgaf wrote: »

Does the fact that the District Court option has been offered mean the Registrar deems there to be some merit to the case ?
Is there any attempt at mediation by the Registrar before the court case or is it straight to court, whenever that may be ?

Fromt the courts.ie website on small claims....

The District Court Clerk, called the Small Claims Registrar, processes small claims.

Where possible, the registrar will negotiate a settlement without the need for a court hearing. If the matter cannot be settled the registrar will bring your claim before the District Court

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/0/F9B49A71A85F662C802580B100635032?OpenDocument

When you say the DC option 'has been offered', do you mean you've been given a choice and asked to make a decision either way? Or have you been told that it's going to the DC without further ado?

If you're not being asked to make a decision, it could be because the other side has refused to engage with the court clerk (to negotiate a settlement). Or that the court staff have determined that the case is outside the scope of the SCC, perhaps because of the amount of money involved.

bobgaf · 30-05-2020 2:25pm

The respondent have replied with a Notice of Dispute so they are denying the claim. My options according to the Registrar are to withdraw the claim or go to the District Court.

coylemj · 30-05-2020 2:47pm

bobgaf wrote: »

Does the fact that the District Court option has been offered mean the Registrar deems there to be some merit to the case ?

If you're asking: 'do the court staff screen out hopeless cases?', the answer is 'no'. Lots of court sitting time is taken up with lay litigants who waste everyone's time with their legal ego trips. Not suggesting you fall into that category, my point is that virtually anyone who choses to go to law can have his day in court.

bobgaf wrote: »

Is there any attempt at mediation by the Registrar before the court case .....

Yes, the court staff do just that. As stated on the courts website...

Where possible, the registrar will negotiate a settlement without the need for a court hearing. If the matter cannot be settled the registrar will bring your claim before the District Court.

bobgaf wrote: »

The respondent have replied with a Notice of Dispute so they are denying the claim. My options according to the Registrar are to withdraw the claim or go to the District Court.

So your options are to either drop the case or lawyer up and pursue it at a hearing in the DC. You could go in and represent yourself but if the other side has a solicitor, they will probably run rings around you, win the case and could get costs awarded against you. Of course if you pay a lawyer to attend, you could still lose and end up with with two legal bills.

Is the other side playing hardball in an attempt to force you to withdraw the claim? Are they sure they will win in the DC, to the extent that they won't pay your claim and instead will hire a lawyer to argue the case in the DC? In the expectation that they will win and get you to pay their costs.

Are they bluffing? Your call.

GinSoaked · 30-05-2020 2:52pm

coylemj wrote: »

If you're asking: 'do the court staff screen out hopeless cases?', the answer is 'no'. Lots of court sitting time is taken up with lay litigants who waste everyone's time with their legal ego trips. Not suggesting you fall into that category, my point is that virtually anyone who choses to go to law can have his day in court.

Yes, the court staff do just that. As stated on the courts website...

Where possible, the registrar will negotiate a settlement without the need for a court hearing. If the matter cannot be settled the registrar will bring your claim before the District Court.

So your options are to either drop the case or lawyer up and pursue it at a hearing in the DC. You could go in and represent yourself but if the other side has a solicitor, they will probably run rings around you, win the case and could get costs awarded against you. Of course if you pay a lawyer to attend, you could still lose and up with with two legal bills.

Isn't this still a Small Claims Court case? So no costs for anyone. afaik it just goes before the judge and both sides can argue there case, thats even if the defendant can bother to attend.

coylemj · 30-05-2020 3:01pm

GinSoaked wrote: »

Isn't this still a Small Claims Court case? So no costs for anyone. afaik it just goes before the judge and both sides can argue there case, thats even if the defendant can bother to attend.

+1 my bad. You can engage a solicitor but you can't get costs, even if you win the case.

Engaging a solicitor

You may engage a solicitor at your own cost. The respondent may do likewise.

The whole point of this procedure is that you can bring a claim without using a solicitor.

If you do engage one you will have to meet his/her costs even if you win your case.

http://courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/C39F509AD27E50E08025810D00378545?opendocument&l=en

drunkmonkey · 30-05-2020 3:05pm

bobgaf wrote: »

The respondent have replied with a Notice of Dispute so they are denying the claim. My options according to the Registrar are to withdraw the claim or go to the District Court.

Who ever your claiming against is disputing your claim that's normal enough it's on the form they would have received from the courts.
The register thinks you have no case. He's not referring you to the district court he's just informing you of the options left now which is basically no option, withdraw your claim as it sounds like it's unreasonable.

coylemj · 30-05-2020 3:09pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The register thinks you have no case.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

he's just informing you of the options left now which is basically no option, withdraw your claim as it sounds like it's unreasonable.

Where you read that the registrar considers the OP has an 'unreasonable' or 'no' case? If the other side is disputing the claim then it goes to the DC, unless the OP choses to drop it. The registrar has made no qualitative decision on the OP's case that I can see.

GinSoaked · 30-05-2020 3:10pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Who ever your claiming against is disputing your claim that's normal enough it's on the form they would have received from the courts.
The register thinks you have no case. He's not referring you to the district court he's just informing you of the options left now which is basically no option, withdraw your claim as it sounds like it's unreasonable.

The only thing we know is that the defendant is disputing the case not that the case is unreasonable.

OP just go for it, you've nothing to loose and any money the business spends on legal representation is just money down the drain for them. They don't have to have legal representation they can just send someone along. It could easily cost them more to defend the case than just to pay you. Its not unknown for cases to be uncontested in the court as the defendant doesn't want to waste time or money fighting a lost cause.

drunkmonkey · 30-05-2020 3:36pm

coylemj wrote: »

Where you read that the registrar considers the OP has an 'unreasonable' or 'no' case? If the other side is disputing the claim then it goes to the DC, unless the OP choses to drop it. The registrar has made no qualitative decision on the OP's case that I can see.

I'm just assuming the dispute has merit. Can only speak for myself but I usually get a call from the registrar to discuss the claim against me. The register then goes back and tries to talk to the claimant.
Probably just luck but none have progressed to the district court and I've always stuck to my guns.
I think whatever was written back was enough for the clerk to realise mediation wasn't an option as they don't seem to have discussed it with op. (Hence I think it's unreasonable)
Court can be an expensive option.

drunkmonkey · 30-05-2020 3:37pm

GinSoaked wrote: »

The only thing we know is that the defendant is disputing the case not that the case is unreasonable.

OP just go for it, you've nothing to loose and any money the business spends on legal representation is just money down the drain for them. They don't have to have legal representation they can just send someone along. It could easily cost them more to defend the case than just to pay you. Its not unknown for cases to be uncontested in the court as the defendant doesn't want to waste time or money fighting a lost cause.

There's plenty to lose financially. It's not a free day out.

L1011 · 30-05-2020 3:52pm

Are you sure they mean take the case to the District Court or are you possibly getting confused with a description of where a standard small claims hearing is held?

GinSoaked · 30-05-2020 4:06pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's plenty to lose financially. It's not a free day out.

What is it I forget now €28 to make a claim and then your time to fill the forms in, respond and time off to go to the court on the day.

I don't see that as plenty to lose financially. The whole SCC system is stacked in favour of the the claimant its the defendant that could be throwing good money after bad talking to a solicitor.

coylemj · 30-05-2020 4:26pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

...... I usually get a call from the registrar to discuss the claim against me. The register then goes back and tries to talk to the claimant.
Probably just luck but none have progressed to the district court and I've always stuck to my guns.
I think whatever was written back was enough for the clerk to realise mediation wasn't an option as they don't seem to have discussed it with op. (Hence I think it's unreasonable)

OK, I can see what you're saying. The registrar has the option to call in the two parties to trash it out ....

The Small Claims Registrar may call both parties to his/her office

The meeting will be informal and private.

The Small Claims Registrar will probably ask you and the respondent to outline the facts.

He/she may question both parties in an effort to clarify the issues.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/C39F509AD27E50E08025810D00378545?opendocument&l=en

But this hasn't happened. Meaning that either (1) the respondent is adamant that he will not settle the claim or even make an offer or (2) the registrar thinks the OP's case is hopeless. Both possibly apply. And you are inclined towards option 2.

firemansam4 · 30-05-2020 4:37pm

drunkmonkey wrote:

There's plenty to lose financially. It's not a free day out.

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that legal costs can not be claimed in a SCC case.
Therefore the only cost to the claimant is the 25 euro fee and any expenses to attend the hearing, that is assuming the claimant is representing themselves?

drunkmonkey · 30-05-2020 4:45pm

coylemj wrote: »

OK, I can see what you're saying. The registrar has the option to call in the two parties to trash it out ....

The Small Claims Registrar may call both parties to his/her office

The meeting will be informal and private.

The Small Claims Registrar will probably ask you and the respondent to outline the facts.

He/she may question both parties in an effort to clarify the issues.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/C39F509AD27E50E08025810D00378545?opendocument&l=en

But this hasn't happened. Meaning that either (1) the respondent is adamant that he will not settle the claim or even make an offer or (2) the registrar thinks the OP's case is hopeless. Both possibly apply. And you are inclined towards option 2.

That's it, I was never called to an office though just get a call on my phone for a chat. Who ever he's claiming against isn't going to buckle and I'll also assume the law is on their side not op's.

drunkmonkey · 30-05-2020 4:55pm

firemansam4 wrote: »

Can you explain this? I was under the impression that legal costs can not be claimed in a SCC case.
Therefore the only cost to the claimant is the 25 euro fee and any expenses to attend the hearing, that is assuming the claimant is representing themselves?

Costs are minimal in that scenario, are you really going to go up against a barrister with no legal representation though.
It can also progress to a higher court on appeal, €25 won't go far.
Then even if you win there's the small matter of collecting the money. If it goes to the sheriff they'll want a slice of the pie as well.
It's not as simple as pay €25 and you've nothing to lose. It will cost in time, cash and legal fees.
Personally I'd be trying to come to some reasonable agreement and avoid court altogether.

rock22 · 31-05-2020 8:23am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Personally I'd be trying to come to some reasonable agreement and avoid court altogether.

But isn't that exactly what the registrar has determined is not possible, hence referring the matter to judge?

drunkmonkey · 31-05-2020 8:45am

rock22 wrote: »

But isn't that exactly what the registrar has determined is not possible, hence referring the matter to judge?

Exactly, someone is bring unreasonable in the dispute if mediation isn't possible or wasn't even attempted. The fact they mentioned dropping the case leads me to believe it won't stand up in court, it's not something you'd mention to someone with a good case that's been reasonable trying to resolve the matter before going down the legal route.

GinSoaked · 31-05-2020 8:51am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Exactly, someone is bring unreasonable in the dispute if mediation isn't possible or wasn't even attempted. The fact they mentioned dropping the case leads me to believe it won't stand up in court, it's not something you'd mention to someone with a good case that's been reasonable trying to resolve the matter before going down the legal route.

So it couldn't ever possibly the respondent that is being unreasonable?

drunkmonkey · 31-05-2020 9:16am

GinSoaked wrote: »

So it couldn't ever possibly the respondent that is being unreasonable?

I'm sure it is but one side is willing to go to court at their own expense to defend themselves. It's not something you'd bother doing if operating outside the law. It would be easier give them a new TV or their rent deposit back etc.

Bass Reeves · 31-05-2020 9:34am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm sure it is but one side is willing to go to court at their own expense to defend themselves. It's not something you'd bother doing if operating outside the law. It would be easier give them a new TV or their rent deposit back etc.

Rent deposits would normally be done by the RTB. Just like the small claims is free to the claimant it also free to the defendant. If the claim is nearing the upper limit of 2k defendant would be more willing to gamble.

If the case is sound and the claimant has all his facts and paperwork in order he should proceed as he has nothing to lose at this stage unless there is a counter claim. Small claims is held in the DC this may be where the confusion arises.

On collection unless defendant appeals to the DC proper judgement will stand. If defendant refuses to pay claimant can engage the Sheriff, who will try to collect the claim. If the claim is against a business then the Sheriff has a much better chance of collection compared to private individuals

GinSoaked · 31-05-2020 9:34am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm sure it is but one side is willing to go to court at their own expense to defend themselves. It's not something you'd bother doing if operating outside the law. It would be easier give them a new TV or their rent deposit back etc.

Thats how some people operate they deny everything and why we need the Small Claims Court. If every retailer and service provider was 100% honest with its customers why do we have a Small Claims Court process?

So far its cost the respondent nothing to deny everything which is a good idea when people like you come along and say that must be a winning solution.

31-05-2020 9:42am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Rent deposits would normally be done by the RTB. Just like the small claims is free to the claimant it also free to the defendant. If the claim is nearing the upper limit of 2k defendant would be more willing to gamble.s

Only if it’s a tenancy covered by the RTA, if it’s a licensee agreement, the tenant has to use the SCC as the RTB will not hear the case.

firemansam4 · 31-05-2020 9:54am

drunkmonkey wrote:

Costs are minimal in that scenario, are you really going to go up against a barrister with no legal representation though. It can also progress to a higher court on appeal, â‚¬25 won't go far. Then even if you win there's the small matter of collecting the money. If it goes to the sheriff they'll want a slice of the pie as well. It's not as simple as pay â‚¬25 and you've nothing to lose. It will cost in time, cash and legal fees. Personally I'd be trying to come to some reasonable agreement and avoid court altogether.

So if the claimant wins the case and then the respondent appeals to a higher court, could it then be the case that if the appeal is successful then legal costs for the respondent are awarded against the claimant?

mdwexford · 31-05-2020 10:01am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Costs are minimal in that scenario, are you really going to go up against a barrister with no legal representation though.
It can also progress to a higher court on appeal, €25 won't go far.
Then even if you win there's the small matter of collecting the money. If it goes to the sheriff they'll want a slice of the pie as well.
It's not as simple as pay €25 and you've nothing to lose. It will cost in time, cash and legal fees.
Personally I'd be trying to come to some reasonable agreement and avoid court altogether.

You are spreading misinformation.

Small claim cases are very rarely to never appealed once a District Court Judge makes a decision.

Sheriff fees are €9.50 to enforce a small claim Decree.

The whole idea of a small claim is it’s affordable and legal representation is not required.

bobgaf · 31-05-2020 12:10pm

Appreciate all the responses so far.
Just to clarify a few things.
The amount involved is small.
There will be no issue of further proceedings in higher courts.
It ends in the SCC or the DC.
The issue has nothing to do with rent or the PRTB.
What has happened so far is that I claimed, the other side denied my claim and the Registrar
informed me of this fact, and stated my choice was now to drop the claim or go to the DC.
There has been no discussion of the issue with anyone involved.
I have no desire to waste anyone's time.
If someone with the requisite authority told me my case had no merit, that would be the end.
This what I am looking for, someone to tell me that my claim has merit or not.
I went to the SCC in the first instance as the case does not merit the expense of a solicitor.

Silent Running · 31-05-2020 12:26pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Costs are minimal in that scenario, are you really going to go up against a barrister with no legal representation though.
It can also progress to a higher court on appeal, €25 won't go far.
Then even if you win there's the small matter of collecting the money. If it goes to the sheriff they'll want a slice of the pie as well.
It's not as simple as pay €25 and you've nothing to lose. It will cost in time, cash and legal fees.
Personally I'd be trying to come to some reasonable agreement and avoid court altogether.

Would this cost not fall on the person ignoring the order of the court? That is, the cost of collection would be added to the bill.

Bass Reeves · 31-05-2020 12:35pm

Silent Running wrote: »

Would this cost not fall on the person ignoring the order of the court? That is, the cost of collection would be added to the bill.

Yes Sheriff is pains a small fee for taking the case. He will contact defendant and inform him of what is owed and again a minimum fees is added to defendant costs if he pays up straight away. If not sheriff will seize goods belong to defendant and sell them to pay claimant and cover his own costs.

If it gets this far and you have a business you have to pay up. Sheriff may take a van, machinery, office equipment or supplies, goods in a shop to recover claimant judgement and his own costs. Any extra proceeds will be returned to the defendant

AndrewJRenko · 03-06-2020 9:45pm

mdwexford wrote: »

You are spreading misinformation.

Small claim cases are very rarely to never appealed once a District Court Judge makes a decision.

Sheriff fees are €9.50 to enforce a small claim Decree.

The whole idea of a small claim is it’s affordable and legal representation is not required.

But it is still very difficult to enforce a judgement and get paid, if the person refuses to pay up.

Claw Hammer · 04-06-2020 10:40am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But it is still very difficult to enforce a judgement and get paid, if the person refuses to pay up.

it is generally a business and the judgement can be registered thus causing the business embarrassment and credit problems. Many people don't register the judgement and try and enforce using the Sheriff.

Bass Reeves · 04-06-2020 11:38am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

it is generally a business and the judgement can be registered thus causing the business embarrassment and credit problems. Many people don't register the judgement and try and enforce using the Sheriff.

Not only that but the sheriff will seize goods belong to a business to pay for judgement. If the judgement is against a business they virtually have to pay

Claw Hammer · 04-06-2020 11:39am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Not only that but the sheriff will seize goods belong to a business to pay for judgement. If the judgement is against a business they virtually have to pay

That is if the Sheriff can find goods belonging to the business.

Bass Reeves · 04-06-2020 12:12pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is if the Sheriff can find goods belonging to the business.

It generally can it can seize vans, cars, IT products, office supplies, tools etc.

stresshead101 · 30-07-2020 3:57pm

Hi OP

Did you ever get your situation resolved?

The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission can give you advice on your general rights and what applies to your case. They cant offer you anything specific but they can point you in the right direction.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/

bobgaf · 30-07-2020 5:41pm

In the end, I decided not to go to the District Court. I ended up going to the SCC having consulted the CCPC but as you say, they cannot offer specific advice. What I wanted was legal advice on my case without engaging a solicitor due to the amount of money involved. I did not get that but perhaps that was naive in the first instance. The communication with the Registrar whether to proceed to the DC or not was very short but maybe it has to be like that. I remain curious to know if that communication would have developed if I had decided to go to the DC. What I wanted was someone qualified to tell me my case had no/little/some merit and I would have followed that advice. After the SCC process, it seems to me that if you want legal advice, you have to talk to a solicitor. It still bugs me that the other party got more than 200 euro for a trip deposit that could never have gone ahead due to Covid but I did not fancy a date in the DC to state my case.

stresshead101 · 30-07-2020 6:31pm

bobgaf wrote: »

In the end, I decided not to go to the District Court. I ended up going to the SCC having consulted the CCPC but as you say, they cannot offer specific advice. What I wanted was legal advice on my case without engaging a solicitor due to the amount of money involved. I did not get that but perhaps that was naive in the first instance. The communication with the Registrar whether to proceed to the DC or not was very short but maybe it has to be like that. I remain curious to know if that communication would have developed if I had decided to go to the DC. What I wanted was someone qualified to tell me my case had no/little/some merit and I would have followed that advice. After the SCC process, it seems to me that if you want legal advice, you have to talk to a solicitor. It still bugs me that the other party got more than 200 euro for a trip deposit that could never have gone ahead due to Covid but I did not fancy a date in the DC to state my case.

Have you considered contacting FLAC (Free Legal Advice Clinic)? If you ring them during the day, you can arrange a 15 minute telephone appointment for a volunteer solicitor to ring you regarding your case. You don't have to pay for this service and they can talk to you about your case. I don't think they can advise you to go ahead with it or not but they can definitely tell you if you have a case.

Their contact number is 01 874 5690 or 1890 350 250, they can definitely help you out.

Also, the District Court is part of the Small Claims process, and as far as I'm aware both parties stand up in front of a judge and tell their side of the story and the Judge decides. You don't have to get a solicitor, that the point of the the Small Claims. If the other party chooses to get a solicitor, thats their choice and they cant claim those costs against you.

bobgaf · 30-07-2020 9:14pm

Thanks for all the input.
The FLAC advice is something I wish I considered at the time. Someone to tell me this case had merit or none.
The DC appearance was something I considered even from the point of view that because the other side would have had to be represented,
the money would essentially have gone to their solicitor and not to them. They may not even have shown up depending on the legal cost to them. But ultimately, I decided against because I did not want to have to take a half day and put myself in that position when I had no idea of the merit of my case. I may yet ring FLAC out of sheer curiosity. But having declined to go to the DC already in the SCC, I'm not sure the case could even be resurrected. Should have thought of FLAC in the first place but I thought the issue would be settled in the SCC.
You live and learn ( hopefully )...

stresshead101 · 31-07-2020 8:59am

bobgaf wrote: »

Thanks for all the input.
The FLAC advice is something I wish I considered at the time. Someone to tell me this case had merit or none.
The DC appearance was something I considered even from the point of view that because the other side would have had to be represented,
the money would essentially have gone to their solicitor and not to them. They may not even have shown up depending on the legal cost to them. But ultimately, I decided against because I did not want to have to take a half day and put myself in that position when I had no idea of the merit of my case. I may yet ring FLAC out of sheer curiosity. But having declined to go to the DC already in the SCC, I'm not sure the case could even be resurrected. Should have thought of FLAC in the first place but I thought the issue would be settled in the SCC.
You live and learn ( hopefully )...

I always thought that the small claims procedure included a hearing with a Judge - if the registrar cant solve the problem by contacting and discussing the claim with the respondent, then you have the option to go before a Judge and have him hear the case. Neither sides need professional legal advice in this case.
It would be worth ring FLAC and the Small Claims and see if you could bring the case again? The only thing you have to lose is €25 fee for submitting the claim.

Side note - the small claims accepted your case and contact the respondent, it means that it does have merit. Doesn't necessarily mean that you're right, but it means that there is a legal basis for your dispute.

bobgaf · 01-08-2020 2:59pm

If I didn't have other stuff going on, I might have resurrected this if only to see it through, whatever the outcome.
One thing that may need clarification is that I understand the other side as a company would have had to have legal
representation in the DC whereas I as an individual would not require the same.
I would love to hear from someone who went from SCC to DCC and how the whole thing unfolds, particularly as to how the
Registrar gets involved and at what stage and to what extent.
If I thought there was a process between being referred to the DC and the DC appearance, I would have been more likely to go
that route, but all I had up to that was very brief correspondence which did not fill me with confidence.

Referred from Small Claims to District Court.

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