Origin of surname

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 18-10-2015 12:28am #1

Hi

My surname (which for privacy reasons I'd prefer not to write here) is of Norman origin, well that's what I always thought. From researching it a little I found some websites that state that it is Flemish origin, which reconciles with it being Norman I suppose, but also there are some references to it being of Middle English origin and even some that state it is derived from 7th century Olde English. There are also references to it being a Yola name.

As someone whose history knowledge is poor, I'm wondering if my name being of Flemish or of Olde English origin are mutually exclusive, for example if it is originally of Flemish origin could it have been brought to England by the Anglo-Saxons for example?

Would anyone be able to help me put the possible pieces together a little better?

Thanks

pinkypinky · 18-10-2015 10:35am

Well, difficult without knowing the surname but I suggest looking at published sources like MacLysaght's Surnames of Ireland rather than the internet.

pedroeibar1 · 18-10-2015 10:52am

Most of the “Surname” sites I have encountered appear to exist solely as a means of selling “Family Coats of Arms” and as such are not to be trusted.

If you suspect your surname is Norman / Flemish / Saxon and has been in Ireland for generations, it is probable that the family here owes its origins to one of the “English” Plantations/conquests or a merchant.

In broad brushstrokes, as the Roman control ebbed in “England” the Saxons, who had arrived there from what is now +/- Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium, spread out across the country from Anglia/Wessex. Surnames date in England from about the year 1000. Many were introduced as a result of the Norman Conquest although there are records of Saxon surnames prior to this period. You need to look at records in England, pipe rolls, etc., to establish the old spelling of the name as that often is a clue.

MacLysaght’s books “Irish Families” and “More Irish Families” also have shot entries on “foreign” surnames, are good (even if he is not always 100% correct) and might give you a pointer or two. Have a look at Matheson’s book on surnames in Ireland - online here

tac foley · 18-10-2015 7:51pm

Surnames, in general, fall into distinct groups -

1. Location-related/derived - John [of the ]Wood, Pool, Rivers, Hill, Valley et al.

2. Vocational - Thatcher, Miller, Painter, Glazier, Bowman, Shipwright, Fuller, Woodman et al.

3. Indicative of owed fealty - as the servant, vassal or some kind of servitor of an aristocratic feudal lord, you many have been known as John [of] Beauchamp, Villers, et al.

4. Your ancestor may have BEEN the feudal land-owner with the Norman name - if you are in Burke's Peerage then you really wouldn't be asking here, BTW.

I, for example, have my father's family name tacked on to my Burgundian French family name on the maternal side, a convenient way of becoming legitimate, in my case.

If your name is Irish or an English translation of it, then you may well find it in one of the documents noted by Pedro. However, Flemish names in English are usually obvious, like, for instance, Fleming, which is an obvious convenient naming. Most Flemish names I have ever come across are decidedly easy to identify as such. Anglo-Saxon 'surnames', per se, are almost totally unknown, since they inevitably followed the Scandinavian and current Icelandic habit of naming you after your father - eg Sniggli Leofwardson. There is no detectable correlation between Norman names {French origin] and Flemish names [Germanic origin], BTW. The Normans came from Scandinavia, invaded northern France and settled there, and adopted French mores and most of the language. Some Norman first names are unmistakably 'northern' - Udo is just one example.

Give us a clue and help might be more forthcoming.

tac

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 18-10-2015 9:24pm

Hi lads, thanks very much for the very interesting replies and links. I will certainly use them for further research.

Apologies for not being more forthcoming with my surname, I appreciate that in a thread concerning my surname, not revealing it and asking people to make educated guesses is asking a bit much. I referred to Matheson’s book on surnames in Ireland linked by pedroeibar1 and my surname is one of the ones listed at the bottom of page 23, where it refers to the colony in Forth and Bargy and a peculiar dialect which I presume is Yola.

As far as I am aware my surname can be traced to a specific Anglo Norman settler in Kilmore and therefore we always assumed we were derived of Norman stock, but I'm wondering where these references to Flemish, Yola and Old English fit in, if they can at all,with this Norman narrative

Thanks again

tac foley · 19-10-2015 12:14pm

Please note for reference that Old English - AKA Anglo-Saxon, usually of the Wessex dialect, bears VERY little relationship to the form of English spoken today.

Are you perhaps confusing it with Middle English - that is to say, the language of Chaucer?

Two examples here - The Lord's Prayer in OE -

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum;
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice

...and in Middle English

Oure fadir that art in heuenes,
halewid be thi name;
thi kyngdoom come to;
be thi wille don, in erthe as in heuene.
Yyue to vs this dai oure breed ouer othir substaunce,
and foryyue to vs oure dettis, as we foryyuen to oure dettouris;
and lede vs not in to temptacioun, but delyuere vs fro yuel. Amen.

tac

pinkypinky · 19-10-2015 2:41pm

I think we've said all we can on this topic without the actual surname being divulged.

pedroeibar1 · 19-10-2015 3:16pm

OP, it is impossible to respond accurately when your surname is unknown. There are several reasons why references to Flemish, Yola and Old English fit in with a Norman narrative. Yola is a word that lent its name to a group of people who spoke a dialect in S Wexford. That suggests they would have a common outlook at the time they arrived and maintained it thereafter, but their lineages in their places of origin would probably have been different. If, as has been (elsewhere) suggested they came from Cornwall, they could have been descended from the Cornovii, a Celtic tribe, or from Anglo-Saxons, or Norman stock who had settled in Cornwall.

As Tac said above the Normans originated in Scandinavia, they then invaded Britain from France and the great grandsons of that lot, who had settled in Wales, were those who were invited to Ireland. So for example are the Fitzgerald or Butler families Irish, Welsh, English, Norman or Scandinavian? What are the de Burgos (now Burkes)? However, I disagree with Tac on Anglo-Saxon 'surnames' disappearing – I have a very Saxon one; to name a few others Churchill, Cromwell, Duke, Goodwin, Keats,etc., and not all of the name "Smith" are late medieval, many are Anglo-Saxon.

From the Matheson page you cited, taking for example the Wexford name of “Stafford”. In Ireland it originally was “de Stafford”, a Norman-style locative name from a place in England (Stafford, itself from Old English, Stat-Ford = town on a ford) but the founder of the Staffords in England was Robert de Stafford, a younger brother of Ralph de Tosney. But for the whim of that younger son adopting the name de Stafford they could be called de Tosney. So do you describe Stafford as old English (Stadt ford) or Norman (de Stafford) or Irish because the family have been here for almost 1000 years? (To confuse it even more, Tosney was not from Normandy, but from the Ile-de-France /region near Paris and migrated to Normandy and collaborated with the descendants of the Norsemen!)

McAuliffe can be regarded as an Irish surname, from Amhalghaidh, an ancient king of Munster but some view it as having a Norse origin, Mac Olav. Both probably are correct, so again, take your pick! (McCawley, McGawley, Mcauliffe - Irish or Scandinavian?) People with the surname Buckley could be from an old Irish family or from a Saxon one. Family lines never are very clear when you go back that far, and remember that 50% of your descent comes from the mammy, so that is another reason not to get hung up on a particular lineage on the male side.:)

Ipso · 19-10-2015 3:53pm

Didn't the Normans have a massive "entourage" when they invaded Britain? I read that the Flemish were supposed to be noted archers.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 19-10-2015 9:35pm

Hi lads,
Sorry again for not giving my surname, I have my reasons unfortunately and I completely understand there is only so much that can be said without knowing it. I don't expect any more replies and I really appreciate the great info given in the thread despite the lack of a specific surname!

Thanks

shanew · 19-10-2015 10:08pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

........Family lines never are very clear when you go back that far, and remember that 50% of your descent comes from the mammy, so that is another reason not to get hung up on a particular lineage on the male side.:)

I think that is a very import detail that's too often missed - the surname you end up with is only one of the many in your direct ancestral line.

Origin of surname

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