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Large Explosion in Beirut

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    #242
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    If you're basing your understanding of safety in the energy sector from a TV series in a different era and in a country not exactly known for its risk aversion and safety culture then i think we're done here....like i said, i've 20 years experience in that exact industry to say that that dramatization is not representative of how safety is managed and treated in countries and organisation where safety is a no. 1 corner stone of their values.....again, you've no evidence to point at the route cause.....the only thing that can be said is that it sounds like there was a serious lack of safety procedures and culture which is to be expected unfortunately in these kind of places....no one is saying that you prioritise small safety issues at the expense of the bigger issues...i don't need to explain the concept again, you just don't get it or how it relates to safety management in high risk industries....also you talk about neglecting big problems you don't know exist yet?? Every hear of risk assessments???..again, we're done here....

    Of course it is a dramatisation. But the bad decisions made by those with egos and clout are universal.

    Risk assessments only deal with what you know about it. Corner stone, values, safety pyramids, it is mostly talk and bolloxology at that consistent with the safety statement on the wall signed by the management who would have sanctioned the presence of a bomb in the first place.

    I would even argue that the obsession with the low hanging fruit of occupational safety blinds people to these huge risks. Someone probably reported a box out of place that someone could trip over while walking past a ****tonne of explosive material without giving it a moments thought.


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    #243
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    i_surge wrote: »
    Of course it is a dramatisation. But the bad decisions made by those with egos and clout are universal.

    Risk assessments only deal with what you know about it. Corner stone, values, safety pyramids, it is mostly talk and bolloxology at that consistent with the safety statement on the wall signed by the management who would have sanctioned the presence of a bomb in the first place.

    I would even argue that the obsession with the low hanging fruit of occupational safety blinds people to these huge risks. Someone probably reported a box out of place that someone could trip over while walking past a ****tonne of explosive material without giving it a moments thought.

    DRAs can deal with known unknowns. You're clearly a safety sceptic for whatever reason and that's fine but don't dismiss proven system of safe work designed around reinforcing a safety culture from top to bottom. I would guess that i have more experience of you directly on safety than your opinion on safety suggest but i stand corrected but if i was in your industry (if its as risky as you say it is, which i'm not doubting) i'd be worried about your attitude in general based on your posts, but thats just based on your responses. Again, you're just bringing in fantasy into your argument making up scenarios to prove your opinion on safety.

    What i will agree with you on is that sometimes safety reporting can be stat generating driven at certain levels but i have never been concerned that this has been at the expense of the more serious stuff.

    What we can also agree on is that when safety is neglected, as appears to be the case here, it can have unimaginably catastrophic consequences as proven by this tragedy.

    Lets agree to disagree and not railroad this thread....;)


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    #244
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    DRAs can deal with known unknowns. You're clearly a safety sceptic for whatever reason and that's fine but don't dismiss proven system of safe work designed around reinforcing a safety culture from top to bottom. I would guess that i have more experience of you directly on safety than your opinion on safety suggest but i stand corrected but if i was in your industry (if its as risky as you say it is, which i'm not doubting) i'd be worried about your attitude in general. with your attitude Again, you're just bringing in fantasy into your argument making up scenarios to prove your opinion on safety.

    What i will agree with you on is that sometimes safety reporting can be stat generating driven at certain levels but i have never been concerned that this has been at the expense of the more serious stuff.

    What we can also agree on is that when safety is neglected, as appears to be the case here, it can have unimaginably catastrophic consequences as proven by this tragedy.

    Lets agree to disagree and not railroad this thread....;)

    They aren't proven in the slightest! The biggest question across the industry is why increasing safety observations doesn't reduce the frequency of large accidents. The answer is so obvious to anyone with a drop of common sense, they are almost completely unrelated. The majority of health and safety is ineffective busy work, that makes me a critic not a disbeliever, we are talking about preventing these sorts of destroy a city type events remember. I trust adults to cross a road on their own without nannying if you get the difference.

    Anyway, moving on, we can agree to differ.


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    #245
    MarcusP12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭MarcusP12


    i_surge wrote: »
    They aren't proven in the slightest! The biggest question across the industry is why increasing safety observations doesn't reduce the frequency of large accidents. The answer is so obvious to anyone with a drop of common sense, they are almost completely unrelated. The majority of health and safety is ineffective busy work, that makes me a critic not a disbeliever, we are talking about preventing these sorts of destroy a city type events remember. I trust adults to cross a road on their own without nannying if you get the difference.

    Anyway, moving on, we can agree to differ.

    i could ask what your basing this on or what your reference is for this but it would clearly just drag the ar$e out of this even further....plus i assume you do understand the concept of likelihood x impact = risk rating? so the low level stuff you dismiss which has a lower impact needs to be addressed and managed every bit as much as the much less likely event that has fatal consequences....any high profile company with a serious safety culture has a zero LTI target so all levels of impact are addressed not just the worst case....

    anyway, like i've said and you've said, lets move on....


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    #246
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    i could ask what your basing this on or what your reference is for this but it would clearly just drag the ar$e out of this even further....plus i assume you do understand the concept of likelihood x impact = risk rating? so the low level stuff you dismiss which has a lower impact needs to be addressed and managed every bit as much as the much less likely event that has fatal consequences....any high profile company with a serious safety culture has a zero LTI target so all levels of impact are addressed not just the worst case....

    anyway, like i've said and you've said, lets move on....

    Low likelihood high impact should have a weighting added in that calc if the whole industry wasn't disingenuous about it. The evidence is before our eyes, such is the scale of devastation.

    Sleeping at the wheel.


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    #247
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,158 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    There won't be thousands of dead here, it'll be 200 or so. Damage outside the port doesn't seem to be structural from that photo but who knows.


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    #248
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,438 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    MadYaker wrote: »
    There won't be thousands of dead here, it'll be 200 or so. Damage outside the port doesn't seem to be structural from that photo but who knows.

    I'm not so sure.


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    #249
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,418 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    MadYaker wrote: »
    There won't be thousands of dead here, it'll be 200 or so. Damage outside the port doesn't seem to be structural from that photo but who knows.

    I dunno, kill radius of a grenade is 10 - 15 meters

    Injury radius is about 15 meters but minor injuries up to 250 meters,

    it could be 200 it could be 2000, i dont think we will ever know the true cost


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    #250
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,381 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Don't know if it's been posted but the video of the bride is so surreal. It being so stabalised gives it a movie-like quality that is just bizarre as hell.



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    #251
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,810 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Hi res images, you can also see a capsized cruise ship:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/08/05/beirut-explosions-satellite-images-destruction/?arc404=true

    Beirutloc-medium.jpg?v=29
    HarborCompareBefore-05_-_xlarge_-_1180.jpg?v=25
    HarborCompareAfter-05_-_xlarge_-_1180.jpg?v=26
    C6HTFNGXHMI6VJ4IFTUGZ2ARFE.jpg
    DM7UHBWXHMI6VJ4IFTUGZ2ARFE.jpg


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    #252
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    How the ammonium nitrate was stored

    image.jpg


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    #253
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    The press said there may have been some repair welding taking place at the location (not ideal to have an extreme heat source), and that there is circa only 1mth worth of grain supplies left for the city/country after the silos collapsed.

    One curious thing is that there does not appear to be a 'WTC building 7' type collapse of any of the taller (concrete) buildings in the vicinity, just loads of severe frontal damage.


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    #254
    Dpg21
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Dpg21


    The ship was the orient queen, sadly I heard 2 crew members have died and 7 seriously injured. The ship has fully sunk now after those picture were taken


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    #255
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Update on the explosion. (not sure if already posted)
    Appears to have been clumsy welding that sparked ot off.
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/08/beirut-blast-wrap-up.html


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    #256
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Blaming the welder is finding a scapegoat, not a cause. The fact that it was stored there is the cause, not the spark that ignited it, that was bound to happen at some point one way or the other.


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    #257
    Tzardine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Update on the explosion. (not sure if already posted)
    Appears to have been clumsy welding that sparked ot off.
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/08/beirut-blast-wrap-up.html

    There is no official suggestion that the blast has been caused by welding. This appears to be a rumor that is spreading, citing "local Lebanese media" as the source. I would wait for the official report to come out.

    I would also take anything off that site with a fairly large pinch of salt.

    "Moon of Alabama - Where Barflies Get Together"


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    #258
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    A 'preliminary investigation' revealed Tuesday's blast occurred after a fire was sparked by someone welding a small hole to prevent theft from the warehouse, the Lebanese TV station LBCI reported.


    There were also fireballs in Chiiiiiiin-ya and NKor, but these were not related and either accidients or acts of nature/Hephaestus.


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    #259
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Cordell wrote: »
    Blaming the welder is finding a scapegoat, not a cause. The fact that it was stored there is the cause, not the spark that ignited it, that was bound to happen at some point one way or the other.
    In many industrial environments, there is a mandatory "fire watch" for at least two hours after any welding is carried out to catch any stray spatter from the welding that may be out of sight but smouldering away under dust.


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    #260
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Again, the welder can be blamed for not following procedures and starting a fire, but not for the explosion. The blame for the explosion needs to be placed on those that allowed 3000 tons of explosive to be stored for 6 years in an unsuitable storage facility near densely populated area.


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    #261
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    i could ask what your basing this on or what your reference is for this but it would clearly just drag the ar$e out of this even further....plus i assume you do understand the concept of likelihood x impact = risk rating? so the low level stuff you dismiss which has a lower impact needs to be addressed and managed every bit as much as the much less likely event that has fatal consequences....any high profile company with a serious safety culture has a zero LTI target so all levels of impact are addressed not just the worst case....

    anyway, like i've said and you've said, lets move on....

    I wonder if the two of you are not talking past each other on three different subjects?

    Attention to detail, even the small things are important and create the correct culture is fine. I don't think it's an objectionable statement, and it applies to areas outside of industry as well, such as police, military or medical.

    Arguing the nature of those details, though, may also be a valid point. If H&S requires that I wear a rad suit because the 80-year-old vehicle I'm in has a cracked speedometer gauge (they would use radium to paint the glow-in-the-dark bits), that seems excessive. As does filling out an 8-page safety survey on where you are going, how you are getting there, what rest stops are planned, etc before taking a weekend's vacation. I would think the chances of injury due to fumbling something metal and heavy or restricted vision would outweigh the radiation hazard.

    And this explosion doesn't seem to be a H&S thing at all, instead one of policy and governance. They knew it was unsafe, they tried to do something about it, but were not resourced by the decision-makers to address the problem.


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    #262
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnSr820S2Mk


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    #263
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,158 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I dunno, kill radius of a grenade is 10 - 15 meters

    Injury radius is about 15 meters but minor injuries up to 250 meters,

    it could be 200 it could be 2000, i dont think we will ever know the true cost

    The explosion happened in a port not a densely populated residential area. Up to 135 dead now and it won’t go much higher. There’s only a few still missing. I feel for Lebanese. It seemed like they were making progress rebuilding their country until coronavirus and now this. I’ll be disgusted if that welder goes down for this it’s the people in charge that are at fault. The prime minister was on the news breathing fire yesterday so someone is going down for it and I doubt it’ll be him. He shares more of the blame than the guy welding imo.


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    #264
    xzanti
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 10,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭xzanti


    biko wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnSr820S2Mk

    Nothing was gonna stop that priest saying mass.


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    #265
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    MadYaker wrote: »
    The explosion happened in a port not a densely populated residential area. Up to 135 dead now and it won’t go much higher. There’s only a few still missing. I feel for Lebanese. It seemed like they were making progress rebuilding their country until coronavirus and now this. I’ll be disgusted if that welder goes down for this it’s the people in charge that are at fault. The prime minister was on the news breathing fire yesterday so someone is going down for it and I doubt it’ll be him. He shares more of the blame than the guy welding imo.

    While the death toll will not reach into the thousands, the Port itself is a very busy location.

    There are a number of Duty Free buildings which are frequented by the UN among others. The Duty Free shuts at about 3.30, so if the blast was earlier it would have resulted in higher casualties.

    The Port is also less busy due to Covid and the economic situation in Lebanon.

    Also, the Beirut equivilant of Busaras is directly across the road. If the border between Lebanon and Syria was fully operational, there would have been more casualties.

    Taking these into consideration, IF the incident occurred 6 months ago and prior to 3.30, casualties in the Port area alone could be upwards of 700 people,

    Thankfully it didnt happen 6 months ago.

    Also, they were nowhere near rebuilding the country prior to Covid. In fact, things had been getting worse.


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    #266
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53686563

    Macron in Beirut calling for deep political reforms in Lebanon.

    He's correct of course, Lebanon is a basket case in appears to be a cursed country, but it's odd seeing the President of the former colonial power landing in there calling the shots.

    Maybe we don't tend to pay attention as much as we're an Anglophone county, but the French in Africa and elsewhere appear to still harbour fantasies about their former colonial role even more than the British, and tend to stick their nose in a bit more than is appropriate.


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    #267
    Man with broke phone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    Yurt! wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53686563

    Macron in Beirut calling for deep political reforms in Lebanon.

    He's correct of course, Lebanon is a basket case in appears to be a cursed country, but it's odd seeing the President of the former colonial power landing in there calling the shots.

    Maybe we don't tend to pay attention as much as we're an Anglophone county, but the French in Africa and elsewhere appear to still harbour fantasies about their former colonial role even more than the British, and tend to stick their nose in a bit more than is appropriate.

    Its almost funny when a strange suspect explosion is followed up by a colonist offering money and demanding political change. Could be a complete coincidence. I firmly believed it was a welder welding beside bags of explosives like that picture was showing but I didnt really believe the picture was real.


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    #268
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,438 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    xzanti wrote: »
    Nothing was gonna stop that priest saying mass.

    He seemed to high tail pretty fast as soon as the bang went off. !


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    #269
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Yurt! wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53686563

    Macron in Beirut calling for deep political reforms in Lebanon.

    He's correct of course, Lebanon is a basket case in appears to be a cursed country, but it's odd seeing the President of the former colonial power landing in there calling the shots.

    Maybe we don't tend to pay attention as much as we're an Anglophone county, but the French in Africa and elsewhere appear to still harbour fantasies about their former colonial role even more than the British, and tend to stick their nose in a bit more than is appropriate.

    That's a very simplistic view of the situation.

    In reality, France is one of Lebanon's closest political allies which does indeed stem from being a prior colony.

    However, France has been consistent in its political, financial and military support over a number of decades. This includes support through the UN Security Council and military aid packages. France has also been one of the proponants to ensure Lebanon has access to the International Monetary Fund.

    Former Prime Minister Saad Hariri was also afforded refuge in France when he "resigned" under pressure of regional political puppeteering by Saudi.

    That diplomacy and international support all comes at a price of course. The international community has pledged access to USD$11 Billion in donations/loans to prop the Lebanese economy up under the CEDRE funding initiative.

    This comes with the price of significant reforms, many of which are not being honoured by the Lebanese government. If the individual political parties played ball, there would be access to the funding and Lebanon could get its energy and economy sectors sorted, providing significant stability going forward.

    While to the untrained eye it may "appear to still harbour fantasies about their former colonial role", it is simply not accurate. It is in Lebanons interest that Euro nations such as France take a keen interest in the security and stabilisation of Lebanon.


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    #270
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »
    That's a very simplistic view of the situation.

    In reality, France is one of Lebanon's closest political allies which does indeed stem from being a prior colony.

    However, France has been consistent in its political, financial and military support over a number of decades. This includes support through the UN Security Council and military aid packages. France has also been one of the proponants to ensure Lebanon has access to the International Monetary Fund.

    Former Prime Minister Saad Hariri was also afforded refuge in France when he "resigned" under pressure of regional political puppeteering by Saudi.

    That diplomacy and international support all comes at a price of course. The international community has pledged access to USD$11 Billion in donations/loans to prop the Lebanese economy up under the CEDRE funding initiative.

    This comes with the price of significant reforms, many of which are not being honoured by the Lebanese government. If the individual political parties played ball, there would be access to the funding and Lebanon could get its energy and economy sectors sorted, providing significant stability going forward.

    While to the untrained eye it may "appear to still harbour fantasies about their former colonial role", it is simply not accurate. It is in Lebanons interest that Euro nations such as France take a keen interest in the security and stabilisation of Lebanon.

    My point was a general one, and not a simplistic one. Over a dozen French former African colonies still have their foreign currency reserves largely controlled by the French Treasury. It is well noted that when doing business in these countries, be it with governments or certain key industries, there is often a French Énarque behind the curtain making descisions. This is a source of resentment in former French Africa and the French have their hand in that part of the world in a way the British simply do not any longer.

    To restate, while the British merely have a nostalgic pang for their empire, the French "La Grande Nation" has not gone away in the same manner.

    While I'm sure French aid at this time is welcome, I'm confident that the Lebanese would rather undergo reform on their own terms and not under the direction and influence the The Élysée.

    And lastly, while reform may be welcome in Lebanon, it should be noted that the French relationship with the Hariri dynasty could comfortably be described as 'cosy'.


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    #271
    Signore Fancy Pants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Yurt! wrote: »
    My point was a general one, and not a simplistic one. Over a dozen French former African colonies still have their foreign currency reserves largely controlled by the French Treasury. It is well noted that when doing business in these countries, be it with governments or certain key industries, there is often a French Énarque behind the curtain making descisions. This is a source of resentment in former French Africa and the French have their hand in that part of the world in a way the British simply do not any longer.

    To restate, while the British merely have a nostalgic pang for their empire, the French "La Grande Nation" has not gone away in the same manner.

    While I'm sure French aid at this time is welcome, I'm confident that the Lebanese would rather undergo reform on their own terms and not under the direction and influence the The Élysée.

    Your point just came across as a simplistic one, elluding to France wanting proxy control of Lebanon. Also, French aid isnt solely contained to the current circumstances.

    Lebanon as a nation are incapable of establishing reform on their own terms due to the very fractured involvement with their political parties. That is why they are in the state they are in. Not so long ago they were without a President for 2 years due to diplomatic wrangling.

    External assistance is a requirement for stability. The options are assistance from Euro nations or Gulf nations. Due to Hezbollah political wings' influence, it would be better that the Gulf nations have less of an involvement.

    Whatever intents France have with former African colonies (im sure your comments are correct to African colonies) the same is not true for Lebanon purely owing to the fact that they have other "options". France cannot play hardball with Lebanon, therefore can only offer financial assistance in trade of political reform. They dont want political control because Lebanese political parties are notoriously sensitive to shutting down other parties with external influence.

    I am not saying you are completely wrong, theres merit in what we both have stated. We could both be right.


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