Random Running Questions

Murph_D · 28-07-2020 4:34pm

UM1 wrote: »

Stay in front of me or ur name will be muck .Dublin runner usually calls out lap times as u bail past the finish

Luckily the first part of this won't be too hard, especially if you're doing the mile.

Snodge · 28-07-2020 7:49pm

Opinions on massage guns from anyone who has used them, or any physios with knowledge? I run 110-120 km per week

Ceepo · 28-07-2020 8:49pm

Snodge wrote: »

Opinions on massage guns from anyone who has used them, or any physios with knowledge? I run 110-120 km per week

What are you trying to achieve by using one.?
Relaxation, stimulation, recovery???

Snodge · 30-07-2020 9:06am

Ceepo wrote: »

What are you trying to achieve by using one.?
Relaxation, stimulation, recovery???

Recovery

BKWDR · 30-07-2020 9:27am

Snodge wrote: »

Opinions on massage guns from anyone who has used them, or any physios with knowledge? I run 110-120 km per week

i bought one on WISH , same RPM as the ones doing the rounds online in ireland the last week.

Used it, actually found it hurt my muscles longer than foam rolling etc which actually stopped me running.

I dont see the reason for them but i know the company is spraying all the Irish sports people with them to promote them....for a far more expensive price than you get online

Miklos · 30-07-2020 12:12pm

My wife got me one for my birthday a few weeks ago, the Pulseroll one, I find it good for getting at tight spots that can be difficult to hit on a foam roller.

IvoryTower · 30-07-2020 12:14pm

i use a car buffer i got in halfords, have done so for years. Actually noticed the tinmanelite using one in one of their youtube videos so im not alone

They only cost 30e

All just forms of massage, no harm, cant beat someone using their hands but its good alternative imo

Ceepo · 30-07-2020 2:26pm

Snodge wrote: »

Recovery

Recovery on the face of it is a good thing.
Just be aware that our bodys adaptation to training stress is how we actually improve.
Helping it to recover might inhibit our own adaptation process.

Whether these actually help to recover is another question. As far as I know there's no evidence to say they help with recovery outside of placebo .
They may or may not it increase blood flow which can help with waste removal and bring nutrients to the muscle but theres no study to back this up.

If you're looking to get some device to aid your training then look into Red light therapy. Theres 1000"s of studys done on the benefits of RLT.
In summary RLT works at a cellular level by increasing mychondria density and Atp production.

The fitness industry is a breathing ground for gimmicks and pseudoscience and general don't need much or anything to back up their claim. When you add that to the placebo effect and "sure it can't harm you anyway" then you have a winner.

Hannibal_Smith · 30-07-2020 9:03pm

Easy 45 min run with hills.

^^^ what would the idea behind that be? It would help me chose a route and decide which of the many hills around here to use

.

Also...when doing an easy run with hills... You go the same effort not the same pace up them?

MY BAD · 30-07-2020 10:37pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Easy 45 min run with hills.

^^^ what would the idea behind that be? It would help me chose a route and decide which of the many hills around here to use .

Also...when doing an easy run with hills... You go the same effort not the same pace up them?

I normally do a run like that the day before a session. I finish with hills to put a pop in my legs for the next day.
If I label a run 45 easy with hills it would mean a total of 45 minutes at the end I would finish with 6x10 seconds hill sprints walk recovery on the hills. If I label it 45 plus hills its 45 easy then finish with hill sprints

Hannibal_Smith · 30-07-2020 11:11pm

MY BAD wrote: »

I normally do a run like that the day before a session. I finish with hills to put a pop in my legs for the next day.
If I label a run 45 easy with hills it would mean a total of 45 minutes at the end I would finish with 6x10 seconds hill sprints walk recovery on the hills. If I label it 45 plus hills its 45 easy then finish with hill sprints

You're very good. Thanks MyBad

lulublue22 · 01-08-2020 9:39am

Ceepo wrote: »

Recovery on the face of it is a good thing.
Just be aware that our bodys adaptation to training stress is how we actually improve.
Helping it to recover might inhibit our own adaptation process.

Whether these actually help to recover is another question. As far as I know there's no evidence to say they help with recovery outside of placebo .
They may or may not it increase blood flow which can help with waste removal and bring nutrients to the muscle but theres no study to back this up.

If you're looking to get some device to aid your training then look into Red light therapy. Theres 1000"s of studys done on the benefits of RLT.
In summary RLT works at a cellular level by increasing mychondria density and Atp production.

The fitness industry is a breathing ground for gimmicks and pseudoscience and general don't need much or anything to back up their claim. When you add that to the placebo effect and "sure it can't harm you anyway" then you have a winner.

Hi Ceepo

Quick question if you don’t mind my physio recommended I get a massage gun as my muscles are very tight - calves , glutes and traps. Would you recommend one for this ?

tks

BKWDR · 01-08-2020 10:20am

Anyone here use Decathlon runners, specifically the support ones?

400+ miles on my kayano 26 and thinking of giving a twirl. I know you get what you pay for etc

Wottle · 01-08-2020 7:24pm

BKWDR wrote: »

Anyone here use Decathlon runners, specifically the support ones?

400+ miles on my kayano 26 and thinking of giving a twirl. I know you get what you pay for etc

Yep, tried on a load of pairs in their shop. They had NB higher foam €140, which I loved, but I couldn't justify the price. Went with a pair of cushioned Kalenji for €29 and really like them. They feel like a pair of pegasus that have been worn for 2 weeks.
I remember Enduro saying he buys out of lidl or aldi, that was the final push.

I tried on quite a few and went with what felt comfortable.

Ceepo · 01-08-2020 9:39pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

Hi Ceepo

Quick question if you don’t mind my physio recommended I get a massage gun as my muscles are very tight - calves , glutes and traps. Would you recommend one for this ?

tks

Don't mind at all.

Im no expert on massage guns tbh as I have not use one.
And not wishing to go against advice that you have been give by someone that has seen you in person, however the questions I always ask are.

1, How would they help? by what mechanism would the release tight muscles?

I would have to think that a Percussive gun is more superficial and doesn’t apply enough pressure or for a long enough period to make any real change.

2, Why are your muscles getting tight in the 1st place,

3, If you exercise and your muscles are tight after, and you release them how long will that change last?

My opinion would be to save you money and instead get some a few cheaper items, such as a Thercane, hockey ball or similar, foam roller, you can get far better releases with these.

Part 2, would be to find out why the muscles are getting tight in the 1st place, are they over working or compensating for other muscles?.

Did your physio give to any indication as to why they are getting tight ?

lulublue22 · 01-08-2020 11:45pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Don't mind at all.

Im no expert on massage guns tbh as I have not use one.
And not wishing to go against advice that you have been give by someone that has seen you in person, however the questions I always ask are.

1, How would they help? by what mechanism would the release tight muscles?

I would have to think that a Percussive gun is more superficial and doesn’t apply enough pressure or for a long enough period to make any real change.

2, Why are your muscles getting tight in the 1st place,

3, If you exercise and your muscles are tight after, and you release them how long will that change last?

My opinion would be to save you money and instead get some a few cheaper items, such as a Thercane, hockey ball or similar, foam roller, you can get far better releases with these.

Part 2, would be to find out why the muscles are getting tight in the 1st place, are they over working or compensating for other muscles?.

Did your physio give to any indication as to why they are getting tight ?

Thanks for that Physio seems to think I have generally tight muscles coupled with posture and bending down a lot in work.
I have a foam roller but find it awkward to use. I have recently bought trigger release balls and I find those easier.
She thinks it will cut down on the need to go to her - I tend not to get injured - just get tight. I feel my traps and up into my neck after a couple of runs. I did have a bad whiplash injury but that was 20 odd years ago . I don’t tend to feel my calves but she always comments that they are like rocks ðŸ˜ I thought the gun might help loosen me up a bit.

going to google a Thercane there now. Tks for the feedback. Appreciate it.

Ceepo · 02-08-2020 9:40am

lulublue22 wrote: »

Thanks for that Physio seems to think I have generally tight muscles coupled with posture and bending down a lot in work.
I have a foam roller but find it awkward to use. I have recently bought trigger release balls and I find those easier.
She thinks it will cut down on the need to go to her - I tend not to get injured - just get tight. I feel my traps and up into my neck after a couple of runs. I did have a bad whiplash injury but that was 20 odd years ago . I don’t tend to feel my calves but she always comments that they are like rocks ðŸ˜ I thought the gun might help loosen me up a bit.

going to google a Thercane there now. Tks for the feedback. Appreciate it.

No problem at all.

Generally tight muscles are a result of bad movement patterns, bad posture which inhibit muscles moving properly, and possibly dehydrated muscle and facial tissue.
Traps getting tight after a few runs is possible down to a lack of thoracic rotation.

What other step or advice has your physio asked you to take to rectify the issue.

All the above items with only give temporary relief. While I advise people to use them (and use them myself) it is usually to release tissue that are restricting movements before giving corrective exercises to actually rectify the problem.

lulublue22 · 02-08-2020 10:22am

Ceepo wrote: »

No problem at all.

Generally tight muscles are a result of bad movement patterns, bad posture which inhibit muscles moving properly, and possibly dehydrated muscle and facial tissue.
Traps getting tight after a few runs is possible down to a lack of thoracic rotation.

What other step or advice has your physio asked you to take to rectify the issue.

All the above items with only give temporary relief. While I advise people to use them (and use them myself) it is usually to release tissue that are restricting movements before giving corrective exercises to actually rectify the problem.

Hi Ceepo

For the glutes / calves physio recommends general running stretches. For the traps and neck - she has given me exercises that seem to focus on opening the shoulders up - I tend to also sleep on my side with my shoulder curled in. So I’d say there’s a lifetime of poor posture/ habits at play before you look at anything else.
off to google thoracic rotation now

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate you taking the time.

ETA Looks like the exercise is geared towards stretching the thoracic spine area.

Ceepo · 02-08-2020 2:06pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

Hi Ceepo

For the glutes / calves physio recommends general running stretches. For the traps and neck - she has given me exercises that seem to focus on opening the shoulders up - I tend to also sleep on my side with my shoulder curled in. So I’d say there’s a lifetime of poor posture/ habits at play before you look at anything else.
off to google thoracic rotation now Thanks again for your input. I appreciate you taking the time.

ETA Looks like the exercise is geared towards stretching the thoracic spine area.

Re Traps.. Does it involve retracting and depressing the. scapula?
Has the stretches worked for the calves and glutes.

lulublue22 · 02-08-2020 3:34pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Re Traps.. Does it involve retracting and depressing the. scapula?
Has the stretches worked for the calves and glutes.

re the traps Had to google that but yes that is what it is.

Stretches for glutes etc not sure she always comments how tight they are ( I don't notice too much I generally go with my traps neck and get her to do an all over deep tissue massage with needling) but thats not too surprising as I’m a bitch for lack of consistency after each visit I go great guns for a couple of days then peter out till my next visit.

Ceepo · 03-08-2020 12:13am

Sorry for making you Google a lot

You or your physio has said that your posture is poor.

Retracting and depressing the scapula, will give relief but only temporarily, and won't fix anything in any sustainable way. Or won't help with thoracic rotation unfortunately and will only inhibit the Lat muscle from working properly.

You need to address the posture problems

lulublue22 · 03-08-2020 9:24am

Hi Ceepo

Tks for the input. It actually made me think about what I was doing and why rather than tks for the exercises. Appreciate you taking the time. Sorry to everyone else for hijacking the thread.

Ceepo · 03-08-2020 9:57am

lulublue22 wrote: »

Hi Ceepo

Tks for the input. It actually made me think about what I was doing and why rather than tks for the exercises. Appreciate you taking the time. Sorry to everyone else for hijacking the thread.

No problem at all

ariana` · 04-08-2020 11:16am

Not so much a question really but does anyone else think it doesn't feel like Summer around here without the DCM Novice thread going full tilt

TFBubendorfer · 04-08-2020 3:14pm

ariana` wrote: »

Not so much a question really but does anyone else think it doesn't feel like Summer around here without the DCM Novice thread going full tilt

I certainly do! It's my baby and I definitely miss it a lot!

FierceMild · 21-08-2020 11:03pm

Are there any pre-requisites that you would advise to have before attempting a 3:30 marathon? Like, JD's VDOT says that you should be in 1:40 HM time, 45 10K, 22 5K. Would you agree with those times or is there any predictor workout that you would recommend for someone trying to gauge a time? Or would just running a solo time trial 5k be sufficient?

I'm planning on running my first marathon in the next while and I'm trying to gauge a target pace/time.

TFBubendorfer · 22-08-2020 9:16am

FierceMild wrote: »

Are there any pre-requisites that you would advise to have before attempting a 3:30 marathon? Like, JD's VDOT says that you should be in 1:40 HM time, 45 10K, 22 5K. Would you agree with those times or is there any predictor workout that you would recommend for someone trying to gauge a time? Or would just running a solo time trial 5k be sufficient?

I'm planning on running my first marathon in the next while and I'm trying to gauge a target pace/time.

I'd say those VDOT predictions are a bit optimistic. You'd want to be in at least 21:30 shape for the 5k, and even that is cutting it fine, and you'd want to be a bit under 45 and 1:40 for the 10k and half respectively.

Also, this only works if you have been training specifically for the marathon and are in good marathon shape. If you were doing 5k specific training and just ran a 21:30 there would still be no chance that you would be able to carry that over into that marathon, you'd drop off the pace after 20 miles at the very latest.

Have you got an actual marathon lined up or will this be a marathon-distance training run on your own?

FierceMild · 22-08-2020 7:41pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'd say those VDOT predictions are a bit optimistic. You'd want to be in at least 21:30 shape for the 5k, and even that is cutting it fine, and you'd want to be a bit under 45 and 1:40 for the 10k and half respectively.

Also, this only works if you have been training specifically for the marathon and are in good marathon shape. If you were doing 5k specific training and just ran a 21:30 there would still be no chance that you would be able to carry that over into that marathon, you'd drop off the pace after 20 miles at the very latest.

Have you got an actual marathon lined up or will this be a marathon-distance training run on your own?

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

Myself and a friend have agreed to do a marathon distance run planned with a mapped route and homemade aid stations etc in September.

I'd consider myself in "marathon shape" despite only adapting my training a month ago for a marathon. I was previously just working on base-building. Did a HM training run in 1:41 a month ago, doing marathon pace twice a week, have worked my long runs up to 22 miles, 55ish miles per week total volume at present.

adrian522 · 22-08-2020 8:49pm

When I was fit enough to run this time back in 2016 I ran a 10K in Dunshaughlin before starting my marathon plan in 46:26.
went through my marathon training plan and ended up running a 10K in 43;07 which was 3 weeks out from the marathon.

I also ran a 5k parkrun 2 weeks before the race which I did in 20:46. I didn't taper for any of these races in the build up.

I ended up running 3:26 on the day but I'm not sure either of these was a great predictor as such. I ran a session of 14 miles @ MP 10 days out from the race @ 7:48 m/m (3:24 pace) which I think gave me a bit of confidence in my target pace for the race.

I didn't run any half marathon as part of my build up to the race so can't comment on that.

TFBubendorfer · 23-08-2020 3:28pm

FierceMild wrote: »

Myself and a friend have agreed to do a marathon distance run planned with a mapped route and homemade aid stations etc in September.

I'd consider myself in "marathon shape" despite only adapting my training a month ago for a marathon. I was previously just working on base-building. Did a HM training run in 1:41 a month ago, doing marathon pace twice a week, have worked my long runs up to 22 miles, 55ish miles per week total volume at present.

Sounds like you're doing alright, with a bit more training 3:30 should be a realistic target, but be prepared to have to dig deep.

Running with a friend is great as long as:

1) you agree to a certain pace and actually stick to it. Don't hesitate to call out if you're going too fast. 3:30 is 8-minute pace and you need to be disciplined and patient. If you start running at 7:30 pace you won't break 3:30.

2) make a mutual agreement that if one of you can't sustain the pace any more the other has permission to push ahead

FierceMild · 23-08-2020 11:15pm

Thanks for your input Adrian, I appreciate it hugely. I think I'll run a 5k next weekend; Those times look like exactly what I should be looking for if I'm to run a 3:30.

TFBubendorfer: Good advice. We've already got an agreement that there should be no pace matching if someone can't keep up. I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice any fellow runner for a PR lol.

Slow_Runner · 24-08-2020 2:55pm

adrian522 wrote: »

When I was fit enough to run this time back in 2016 I ran a 10K in Dunshaughlin before starting my marathon plan in 46:26.
went through my marathon training plan and ended up running a 10K in 43;07 which was 3 weeks out from the marathon.

I also ran a 5k parkrun 2 weeks before the race which I did in 20:46. I didn't taper for any of these races in the build up.

I ended up running 3:26 on the day but I'm not sure either of these was a great predictor as such. I ran a session of 14 miles @ MP 10 days out from the race @ 7:48 m/m (3:24 pace) which I think gave me a bit of confidence in my target pace for the race.

I didn't run any half marathon as part of my build up to the race so can't comment on that.

Just to give another perspective, I ran 3:39 in Dublin last year off 41:47 10k in Dunshaughlin & 1:34:02 in Rathoath HM. Ran a 19:37 5k in May as wll

It depends on the type of runner you are - endurance or speed. If you find your times drop off greatly as you up the distance then a faster 5k time will be a good indicator.

As I had issues with endurance I followed the Meno plan from these parts and it worked a treat.

Best of luck

Hannibal_Smith · 27-08-2020 4:11pm

The 10k TT came in at 1:10.

I'm doing a 10k plan and want to obviously do better than that (if I manage to get my ar$e in gear :rolleyes: )

Yesterday's work out said '7 mins threshold/tempo...3 mins 10k pace....'.

Is the 10k pace supposed to be the pace I want to run at, or the pace I ran the TT at? Because if its the former, I think I'm broken :eek: :pac:

Swashbuckler · 27-08-2020 5:54pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote:

Is the 10k pace supposed to be the pace I want to run at, or the pace I ran the TT at? Because if its the former, I think I'm broken

Train to current fitness not target fitness.

deconduo · 27-08-2020 6:08pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

The 10k TT came in at 1:10.

I'm doing a 10k plan and want to obviously do better than that (if I manage to get my ar$e in gear :rolleyes: )

Yesterday's work out said '7 mins threshold/tempo...3 mins 10k pace....'.

Is the 10k pace supposed to be the pace I want to run at, or the pace I ran the TT at? Because if its the former, I think I'm broken :eek: :pac:

It will help if you tell us which plan :pac: but most would use current pace not planned pace.

Its also a bit strange because normally I'd expect threshold pace and 10k pace to be roughly the same thing.

TFBubendorfer · 27-08-2020 6:45pm

deconduo wrote: »

It will help if you tell us which plan :pac: but most would use current pace not planned pace.

Its also a bit strange because normally I'd expect threshold pace and 10k pace to be roughly the same thing.

Threshold pace is usually the pace you can hold for an hour, though the definition can change depending on who you ask.

For most runners that would be slower than 10k pace, and that's usually how a training plan intends it to be used.

For a runner whose 10k time is slower than 1 hour, all of a sudden threshold pace would be faster than 10k pace

which makes me think this is might not be a suitable plan for Hannibal_Smith.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-08-2020 6:45pm

deconduo wrote: »

Its also a bit strange because normally I'd expect threshold pace and 10k pace to be roughly the same thing.

Well now, you've hit the nail on the head there because I assumed the same thing. That's what made me ask because it all felt very tough and the 10k bit felt really hard so I just wanted to make sure it's not supposed to be a training 10k pace, where I was supposed to add 30 secs on to the 10k race pace.

It's a Garmin Plan and in the interests of transparency hasn't got off to the best of starts so maybe that's why it felt so rough. That and the threshold/10k parts were uphill.

TFBubendorfer · 27-08-2020 6:48pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

For a runner whose 10k time is slower than 1 hour, all of a sudden threshold pace would be faster than 10k pace which makes me think this is might not be a suitable plan for Hannibal_Smith.

Or, replace "threshold pace" with "a bit slower than 10k pace", otherwise this won't work.

Hannibal_Smith · 27-08-2020 6:53pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

.
this is might not be a suitable plan for Hannibal_Smith.

Ah don't tell me that, I'm trying to keep the mojo alive here

I was running the threshold bit at 11.30, and aimed for between 11.15/11.20 for the 10k, which was the avg 10k TT pace?

Murph_D · 27-08-2020 9:30pm

If you're really interested in knowing this stuff you could take a lactate threshold test that would show you exactly where this 'one hour' pace is, based on pinprick blood tests while running progressively faster laps of a track. Can be very interesting. It's possible (if maybe unlikely) that this pace is faster than your 10k, in which case it would be a poor metric to be using in a 10k plan, as TFB has suggested!

KSU · 27-08-2020 9:32pm

@HannibalSmith

Keep going with the plan but just need to tweak the paces.

For threshold aim for a shade quicker than your current 10k fitness.

For 10k pace tweak it so that your are roughly aiming for a pace you can hit for around 35 or so minutes.

These should give you roughly the training stimulus that most training plans would be aiming for.

KSU · 27-08-2020 9:40pm

Murph_D wrote: »

If you're really interested in knowing this stuff you could take a lactate threshold test that would show you exactly where this 'one hour' pace is, based on pinprick blood tests while running progressively faster laps of a track. Can be very interesting. It's possible (if maybe unlikely) that this pace is faster than your 10k, in which case it would be a poor metric to be using in a 10k plan, as TFB has suggested!

Wouldn't say unlikely. Plenty of people in the same boat though generally people don't get into more specific plans beyond running usually till beyond that level so plans tend not to tailor for this. It's one of the downfalls of relying solely on one metric (HR, pace etc) as there an be other factors (biomechanical as one example) that can influence without taking into account energy systems etc

Hannibal_Smith · 27-08-2020 10:14pm

KSU wrote: »

@HannibalSmith
For threshold aim for a shade quicker than your current 10k fitness.

Quicker? Really? Should I point out that the plan says that these are time based intervals that for example go something like 7 mins threshold, 3 mins 10k, without a recovery in between?

.

It would certainly be a more recognisable pace and would make it a lot easier to judge!

ETA: All the above certainly explain why training calculators dont stretch as low as where I'm at

. I know I asked before (and it was nicely answered) about whether to go back over plans to rinse more out of them. So I wonder whether there might be a benefit to that, if I'm at such a base level and (hopefully levels improve) I could move up the paces like a ladder type thing?

Annie get your Run · 28-08-2020 10:35pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Quicker? Really? Should I point out that the plan says that these are time based intervals that for example go something like 7 mins threshold, 3 mins 10k, without a recovery in between? .

It would certainly be a more recognisable pace and would make it a lot easier to judge!

ETA: All the above certainly explain why training calculators dont stretch as low as where I'm at . I know I asked before (and it was nicely answered) about whether to go back over plans to rinse more out of them. So I wonder whether there might be a benefit to that, if I'm at such a base level and (hopefully levels improve) I could move up the paces like a ladder type thing?

I started one of those garmin plans but quickly stopped . I find them either too advanced or too simple, nothing in between which is where I am right now. I'm struggling to find something that will bring me to a place where I can start thinking about threshold pace etc. It might be worth running these by feel rather than focusing too much on paces?

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 9:58am

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I started one of those garmin plans but quickly stopped . I find them either too advanced or too simple, nothing in between which is where I am right now. I'm struggling to find something that will bring me to a place where I can start thinking about threshold pace etc. It might be worth running these by feel rather than focusing too much on paces?

Thanks for the reply Annie, I feel you're going to get more than you bargained for with this reply, but I'll go for it anyway

When I run by feel I think I'm really reading things correctly, but then I look at the watch and I'm way off. Last night is a perfect example. The plan asked for a 30 min recovery run, so off I went never looked at the watch and thought I went as slow as I could. When I got home I looked at it and the avg pace was 11.40 :rolleyes: There was a time at the beginning of the 5k plan where it asked for 2 mins at 5k pace and there I was flying off thinking I was great holding on to a lovely pace I'd love to run a 5k at wondering if I kept training at this pace I'd come up to the mark by the end of the plan, but then I did the mile TT and quickly twigged, I should be touching no where near what I was doing in the plan

So my judgement is a bit off

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured :pac: I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Although I'm no where at your level, I find there are three types of plans when you search - beginner - intermediate - advanced. The beginner ones all seem to incorporate some level of walk/run approach and the intermediate are too advanced. But when I looked at this 10k plan it seemed to have everything I wanted and seemed manageable in that most other plans said to run x miles on a given day, whereas this one says run x minutes. So my logic was that as long as I get out and run and just do it at my pace I have to improve and not get injured

Swashbuckler · 29-08-2020 10:20am

Hannibal_Smith wrote:

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 2:16pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Thanks a lot for this. It's really changed my thinking. I read it just before heading out earlier and it was lovely and relaxed.

Annie get your Run · 29-08-2020 4:30pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Annie, I feel you're going to get more than you bargained for with this reply, but I'll go for it anyway

When I run by feel I think I'm really reading things correctly, but then I look at the watch and I'm way off. Last night is a perfect example. The plan asked for a 30 min recovery run, so off I went never looked at the watch and thought I went as slow as I could. When I got home I looked at it and the avg pace was 11.40 :rolleyes: There was a time at the beginning of the 5k plan where it asked for 2 mins at 5k pace and there I was flying off thinking I was great holding on to a lovely pace I'd love to run a 5k at wondering if I kept training at this pace I'd come up to the mark by the end of the plan, but then I did the mile TT and quickly twigged, I should be touching no where near what I was doing in the plan So my judgement is a bit off

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured :pac: I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Although I'm no where at your level, I find there are three types of plans when you search - beginner - intermediate - advanced. The beginner ones all seem to incorporate some level of walk/run approach and the intermediate are too advanced. But when I looked at this 10k plan it seemed to have everything I wanted and seemed manageable in that most other plans said to run x miles on a given day, whereas this one says run x minutes. So my logic was that as long as I get out and run and just do it at my pace I have to improve and not get injured

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Given your response to my post, SB is right, I forgot that you have to learn to run by feel - having said that, I would not be beating myself up if I couldn't reach x pace on a run if I wasn't feeling the love for that pace. As said above, consistency is your friend here, stick roughly to the plan week in and week out without overcooking anything or getting too hung up on paces and you'll see progress.

Now, if only I would take my own advice everything would be hunky dory

I am not that far off your paces at the moment either L.

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 5:43pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Given your response to my post, SB is right, I forgot that you have to learn to run by feel - having said that, I would not be beating myself up if I couldn't reach x pace on a run if I wasn't feeling the love for that pace. As said above, consistency is your friend here, stick roughly to the plan week in and week out without overcooking anything or getting too hung up on paces and you'll see progress.

Now, if only I would take my own advice everything would be hunky dory I am not that far off your paces at the moment either L.

No I'm definitely not beating myself up. I've been there done that and made it absolutely miserable for myself last time. I'm not doing it again. Wednesday's run went a bit wrong and I was just checking to see if I'd done something wrong and mixed paces up. It could also be that I flooded the engine trying a run like that after taking a week off for holidays

Im just so happy to be getting this second chance. I never thought I'd be here again. I was only ever going to just keep it at small jogs whenever the mood struck. Then that stupid 5k TT came along :pac: I thought I was going to die during it, but I managed to hold on so I thought if I could hold on with no training... maybe with some training I could get somewhere close to where I would have liked to have been last time.

I definitely needed to hear that running by feel was something you had to keep practising to get right. And you're both right, consistency will take care of a lot and getting it right and keeping it enjoyable will keep me heading out!

adrian522 · 29-08-2020 10:21pm

I'm looking for a Base building plan with a view to spending a few months on this phase. Does anyone have anything they have used in the past or any advice in this in general?

I was reading this, and was thinking 4 weeks of easy runs building up mileage to around 40 miles per week and then adding some steady runs for a few more weeks before progressing to intervals and tempo runs.

Any thoughts?

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