Would televising court cases reduce crime and increase judicial accountability.

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2019 6:42pm #1

Court cases are the staple of local and national newspapers which shows the public have an interest in court proceedings. However there has been little progress in making the courts more transparent and accountable through televising these court proceedings.

Without Dail proceedings being televised we would never have learned about fobgate or heard first hand some of the more controversial exchanges in the Dail.

Televising court cases with the obvious exception of cases involving children or rape etc could act both as a deterrent to offenders and act to inform the public of the actions of both judges and lawyers.

Is there any merit in televising Irish court cases?

Duke of Url · 21-11-2019 6:48pm

I would like to see cases involving compensation televised.

Black Swan · 21-11-2019 7:12pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Televising court cases with the obvious exception of cases involving children or rape etc could act both as a deterrent to offenders and act to inform the public of the actions of both judges and lawyers.

Is there any merit in televising Irish court cases?

Questionable merit. For example, across the pond they have had several court case shows televised for decades. Plus they have dozens of the popular so-called reality court shows (e.g., Judge Judy since 1996, The People's Court since 1981, Divorce Court since 1957, Judge Mathis since 1999, Hot Bench since 2014, Lauren Lake's Paternity Court since 2013, Judge Karen since 2008, and many others including the recent Judge Jerry 2019 of the long running Jerry Springer show where guests fight on stage between bouncers). The content and context may be confounded by the needs of television producers to provide entertainment, and high associated TV ratings to draw advertisers and profits. The entertainment tail may wag the court content dog.

Gatling · 21-11-2019 7:18pm

It would be the equivalent of going on Jeremy Kyle and seen as a Badge of honour for some ,
We would be better building actual large prisons and handing out mandatory serious sentences for crimes rather than suspensions and slaps on the wrist

cj maxx · 21-11-2019 7:30pm

I'd like to see them televised or at least recorded. Shine the light on the legal profession and the judiciary

Irishphotodesk · 21-11-2019 7:31pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Court cases are the staple of local and national newspapers which shows the public have an interest in court proceedings. However there has been little progress in making the courts more transparent and accountable through televising these court proceedings.

Without Dail proceedings being televised we would never have learned about fobgate or heard first hand some of the more controversial exchanges in the Dail.

Televising court cases with the obvious exception of cases involving children or rape etc could act both as a deterrent to offenders and act to inform the public of the actions of both judges and lawyers.

Is there any merit in televising Irish court cases?

No, just no.

If you want to reduce crime you would punish them in a way they understand, in their pocket.

If you fail to follow the rules of the state, you don’t qualify for the benefits of the state, which would allow bigger benefits for those who mend their ways, celebrate 12months crime free with a financial reward.

Of course this would also mean the ordinary citizens should be given wads of cash too for being law obiding, but serious consequences for those that step out of line....proper punishment they can actually feel in their pockets.

If jailed they shouldn’t receive welfare payments (open to correction) I believe the dept of social welfare treats a period of incarceration as a period of unemployment- these payments are used in prison tuck shop, given to partner/family and/or given as a lump sum on release.

I believe only a small amount is given for usage in prison tuck shop, with the majority signed over to dependent family or if no dependent family (I understand) lump sum upon release.

Irishphotodesk · 21-11-2019 7:33pm

cjmc wrote: »

I'd like to see them televised or at least recorded. Shine the light on the legal profession and the judiciary

You can sit into a court and listen if you wish to observe the legal profession at work, stay there long enough and you might see generations of the same families appear (on both sides).

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2019 7:46pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

No, just no.

If you want to reduce crime you would punish them in a way they understand, in their pocket.

If you fail to follow the rules of the state, you don’t qualify for the benefits of the state, which would allow bigger benefits for those who mend their ways, celebrate 12months crime free with a financial reward.

Of course this would also mean the ordinary citizens should be given wads of cash too for being law obiding, but serious consequences for those that step out of line....proper punishment they can actually feel in their pockets.

If jailed they shouldn’t receive welfare payments (open to correction) I believe the dept of social welfare treats a period of incarceration as a period of unemployment- these payments are used in prison tuck shop, given to partner/family and/or given as a lump sum on release.

I believe only a small amount is given for usage in prison tuck shop, with the majority signed over to dependent family or if no dependent family (I understand) lump sum upon release.

So if someone steals food they should lose their welfare benefits? How would they then feed themselves? Would this not just guarantee further crime?

angel eyes 2012 · 21-11-2019 7:47pm

Yes, nothing to stop OP and others from observing the majority of court cases as a member of the public. I think televising proceedings would have zero impact on reducing crime and in fact some repeat offenders would see their appearance on court tv as a badge of honour.

The possibility of appearing before a court or serving time in prison does not act as a deterrent for most serious crime, I agree with the other poster, the only way to deter criminals is to hit them significantly in the pocket.

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2019 7:54pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Yes, nothing to stop OP and others from observing the majority of court cases as a member of the public. I think televising proceedings would have zero impact on reducing crime and in fact some repeat offenders would see their appearance on court tv as a badge of honour.

The possibility of appearing before a court or serving time in prison does not act as a deterrent for most serious crime, I agree with the other poster, the only way to deter criminals is to hit them significantly in the pocket.

The other arm of state, the oireachteas could only be viewed from the visitors gallery until proceedings were televised. I think televising Dail proceedings has been a positive development. Why wouldn’t televising court proceedings also be positive?

angel eyes 2012 · 21-11-2019 8:22pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The other arm of state, the oireachteas could only be viewed from the visitors gallery until proceedings were televised. I think televising Dail proceedings has been a positive development. Why wouldn’t televising court proceedings also be positive?

For the cost involved to the tax payer, I'm not sure of the benefits. You indicated that televising court proceedings would make them "more transparent and accountable".

What exactly does this mean. Who exactly would the Courts be more accountable to? The judiciary are entirely independent and are not elected unlike members of the Oireachtas.

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2019 8:31pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

For the cost involved to the tax payer, I'm not sure of the benefits. You indicated that televising court proceedings would make them "more transparent and accountable".

What exactly does this mean. Who exactly would the Courts be more accountable to? The judiciary are entirely independent and are not elected unlike members of the Oireachtas.

Yes but if the public were more aware of some of the court’s shortcomings, such as lenient or suspended sentences. The public could pressurise their electorate representatives to introduce legislation to address these issues such as minimum sentencing etc.

angel eyes 2012 · 21-11-2019 8:48pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Yes but if the public were more aware of some of the court’s shortcomings, such as lenient or suspended sentences. The public could pressurise their electorate representatives to introduce legislation to address these issues such as minimum sentencing etc.

Have you actually ever sat through an entire trial either in the Circuit or High Court as an independent observer? Well if not, I strongly suggest that you do.

If you have sat through an entire trial, your wish has already been granted by the legislative branch of Government. I refer you to the Judicial Council Act of 2019, which provides for the establishment of a subcommittee of the Council - the Sentencing Guidelines and Information Committee.

Irishphotodesk · 21-11-2019 9:11pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So if someone steals food they should lose their welfare benefits? How would they then feed themselves? Would this not just guarantee further crime?

Quite the opposite, if someone steals food knowing the consequences are that they will suffer greatly if caught, it will offer a deterrent.... however, it’s quite rare that someone comes before the court charged with theft of food (maybe I’m not in the district court enough)

We have a near 60% recidivist rate (within 3yrs) for the more common crimes like theft, robbery, etc, if the consequences of such actions are something that will have an effect on those that commit the crimes - we might have a chance of changing the culture that exists.

I’m sure the many food banks and services that facilitate those in need of food etc would be well stocked if called upon, you would have to question why would someone steal food when multiple services exist to provide them with it.

I have seen multiple generations of criminal families go through the system in the last 20years, I have seen people reoffend simply because life is better for them inside, I have seen the damage drink, drugs and gambling has done to people and their families, and I’m of the opinion that in order to slow down or stop the vast majority of criminality in this country we need to get tough on criminals,

I also think ALL convicted criminals (particularly sex offenders) should be subject to post release tagging for a minimum of 12months, to assist them to avoid returning to criminal ways, the technology exists for us to track and monitor movement and location in tiny wristbands (Fitbit type devices)

We changed in the 80s from a system of punishment to a system where criminals are offered every opportunity to change, this has not been successful, we have criminals in their 40s with in excess of 500previous convictions, the system needs change.

SafeSurfer · 21-11-2019 9:28pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Have you actually ever sat through an entire trial either in the Circuit or High Court as an independent observer? Well if not, I strongly suggest that you do.

If you have sat through an entire trial, your wish has already been granted by the legislative branch of Government. I refer you to the Judicial Council Act of 2019, which provides for the establishment of a subcommittee of the Council - the Sentencing Guidelines and Information Committee.

I would think that very few people have sat through an entire trial in an observer capacity without being either related to those involved in the case in the case or being paid to do so.
To observe high court cases one would have to travel each day to Dublin. Very expensive. Why keep the workings of our justice system, a fundamental tenet of our democracy, hidden from all but journalists and citizens with the time and wherewithal to observe them.

angel eyes 2012 · 21-11-2019 10:02pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I would think that very few people have sat through an entire trial in an observer capacity without being either related to those involved in the case in the case or being paid to do so.
To observe high court cases one would have to travel each day to Dublin. Very expensive. Why keep the workings of our justice system, a fundamental tenet of our democracy, hidden from all but journalists and citizens with the time and wherewithal to observe them.

Not correct, the High Court sits in various locations throughout the country. The Circuit Court sits in even more locations and civil trials can be as short as half a day duration.

If you deem the courts system a fundamental tenet of our democracy, which I am not disputing, why would you not arm yourself with the full facts in advance of proposing expensive measures, particularly when the system needs investment in other more critical areas.

ILoveYourVibes · 21-11-2019 10:04pm

No ...i mean look at the states!

Capt'n Midnight · 21-11-2019 10:21pm

Televising court proceedings ?

Sounds like a SciFi dystopia

Shady Grady · 22-11-2019 1:33am

Televising it would only sensationalize it to future scumbags no my answer is no.

katiek102010 · 22-11-2019 2:32am

No they shouldn't be televised. I can see it being exploited.

I am a firm believer of do the crime, do the time.

Sick of scumbag assholes having a life of luxary.

I ground my kid and he gets banned from TV and ps, made go to his room and think about his behaviour.

Lock the **** heads up, no consoles, no TV or movie night etc, make them study, undergo therapy and definitely no dole when in there.

Let their families buy their supplies just like we have to when our relatives are in nursing homes.

If you break the laws of the land you lose the rights given to you by this land

SafeSurfer · 22-11-2019 2:38am

katiek102010 wrote: »

No they shouldn't be televised. I can see it being exploited.

I am a firm believer of do the crime, do the time.

Sick of scumbag assholes having a life of luxary.

I ground my kid and he gets banned from TV and ps, made go to his room and think about his behaviour.

Lock the **** heads up, no consoles, no TV or movie night etc, make them study, undergo therapy and definitely no dole when in there.

Let their families buy their supplies just like we have to when our relatives are in nursing homes.

If you break the laws of the land you lose the rights given to you by this land

Why should you lose your rights for breaking the law? Thousands of people break the law every day. Should they all lose their rights?

I thought it was illegal for prisoners to claim welfare.

katiek102010 · 22-11-2019 2:47am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why should you lose your rights for breaking the law? Thousands of people break the law every day. Should they all lose their rights?

I thought it was illegal for prisoners to claim welfare.

They have tv's in their cells, every single channel. Games consoles too. All paid for by taxpayers. All medication paid for, free transport for hospital visits, laundry done.

When my mother a law abiding citizen became too ill to care for at home she had to go into a nursing home. We had to pay for her care, supply her with a TV and pay for it. Pay towards her medical costs, do her laundry ourselves and if we couldn't get time off work to take her to hospital visits we had to pay 50E for transport. Not to mention every penny she had drained

Is it right that some thieving scum or paedo has more rights that our elderly, who have worked for 50+ years and behaved themselves

SafeSurfer · 22-11-2019 2:59am

katiek102010 wrote: »

They have tv's in their cells, every single channel. Games consoles too. All paid for by taxpayers. All medication paid for, free transport for hospital visits, laundry done.

When my mother a law abiding citizen became too ill to care for at home she had to go into a nursing home. We had to pay for her care, supply her with a TV and pay for it. Pay towards her medical costs, do her laundry ourselves and if we couldn't get time off work to take her to hospital visits we had to pay 50E for transport. Not to mention every penny she had drained

Is it right that some thieving scum or paedo has more rights that our elderly, who have worked for 50+ years and behaved themselves

Prisoners do not have every single channel in their cells nor are their games consoles provided free by the taxpayer. If prison inmates were only given access to medical attention if they could afford to pay for it, the state would rightly be condemned internationally.

FanadMan · 22-11-2019 3:58am

I wouldn't mind seeing compensation cases being televised. Would be nice seeing "Joe", who has had six or seven previous comp cases before the court, all with nice payouts being shamed on tv. Maybe then there would be a change. Which would result in the lowering of insurance premiums for drivers and public liability (which is crippling businesses). There are way too many settlements without proper investigation. And anyone found making a false claim, jail time or massive reduction of social welfare payments.

katiek102010 · 22-11-2019 9:25am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Prisoners do not have every single channel in their cells nor are their games consoles provided free by the taxpayer. If prison inmates were only given access to medical attention if they could afford to pay for it, the state would rightly be condemned internationally.

Yeah they too. I know too many prison officers that say the same thing. It's really common among long term inmates in case the poor little scumbags get bored.

Actually I think the UK prison service sky bill got leaked to the press last year or the year before. Correct me if I'm wrong I think Ireland may use virgin.

So it's OK to deny medical and medical supplies to innocent elderly in nursing homes if they can't afford it but can't do it to scum for fear of international outcry?

katiek102010 · 22-11-2019 9:27am

FanadMan wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing compensation cases being televised. Would be nice seeing "Joe", who has had six or seven previous comp cases before the court, all with nice payouts being shamed on tv. Maybe then there would be a change. Which would result in the lowering of insurance premiums for drivers and public liability (which is crippling businesses). There are way too many settlements without proper investigation. And anyone found making a false claim, jail time or massive reduction of social welfare payments.

Actually this I agree with. For criminal cases it will only lead scum to think they are celebs and only add more trauma to the victims.

Would televising court cases reduce crime and increase judicial accountability.

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