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explain the need for a pension age extension...

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    #62
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    wmahcm wrote: »
    In what way exactly ? and do you think by attacking them your going not going to get old ? Turkey's cheering on Christmas.

    To your latter point, I think that it is in our interests to ensure that by the time we all retire there is a sustainable pension arrangement in place that is more likely to continue as planned than today's arrangement, which is more likely to have to be changed dramatically given that gradual solutions built over time are not being adhered to.

    To your former point, in what way are pensioners well looked after in Ireland, we could start with the fact that basically nothing of what they get is properly means tested. "Pensioners" are no more a homogenous group than anyone else. If I retire with no pension but the state, or if I retire with a gold plated defined benefit public sector pension, or if I retire with a well funded private pension after a lifetime of good earnings, I'll be entitled to many of the same things regardless of my need despite the fact (if I have a large private pension) that I'm benefitting from some of the most favourable tax treatment available.

    The range of benefits afforded all pensioners regardless of status is directly related to their position as reliable voters.


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    #63
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    You pay USC and PRSI on pension contributions and a government levy on the pension fund so pension contributions are not free of tax.

    Very true. But the most substantial part of the tax is waived on the way in and then waived again on the way out on a substantial part of the pension that is paid. It's not free, but it's the most tax subsidised activity most of us will ever undertake in our lives.


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    #64
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Beasty wrote: »
    As the population ages (and it will - that's the pattern across the developed World and Ireland will be no different, there will be more pensioners are fewer people paying tax to fund those pensions
    Sheer quantity is actually going to be a disadvantage over smaller amounts of higher quality assets. Hence many states are now using points-based migration, all with very strict criteria including language skills. Even going to the 'wrong' University, or not being offered enough starting wages will fail the test. Health (chest x-rays), and 10yr background checks for signs of criminality are likely also.

    Automation will make about 40% of all current jobs (human assets) redundant by the early-mid 2030's. Young males without graduate degrees, experience or lacking fluency will be the most at risk, of life-long welfare redundancy.
    Beasty wrote: »
    It's been forecast for at least 2 decades ....
    But is now starting to become invalid, when accounting for this great new emerging 4th industrial reveloution.


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    #65
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    wmahcm wrote: »
    Do you really believe falling for all this fostering of hatred for older people is not going to effect you when you are older ?

    Do you really believe this kind of emotive argument will pay the piper in the future

    Burying the head and appealing to sentimentality won't cut it


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    #66
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    wmahcm wrote: »
    Funny how this "choice" didn't apply to borrowing billions for generations to preserve developers, politicians and bankers pensions and wealth.


    We have an impending and completely foreseeable problem with pensions funding. We need to deal with that and this kind of whataboutery adds nothing to the debate.


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    #67
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    893bet wrote: »
    I am building a small private pension. Hopefully a reasonable one by the time I retire. A couple of 100 a week to add to the state one.

    My big fear is that in 20 years time who ever is in power will look and see “ah paddy fair play, you were wise when you were young and put a few quid away, tell you what we are going to means test the state pension and as you put a few quid away we are gonna **** you”.

    If you are under 35 you should assume that this will be the case.


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    #68
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,112 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Phoebas wrote: »
    We have an impending and completely foreseeable problem with pensions funding. We need to deal with that and this kind of whataboutery adds nothing to the debate.

    That was why I ignored it.


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    #69
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    If you are under 35 you should assume that this will be the case.

    If you are under 35 then this pensions issue should be even more important to you than it is for older people - because you are going to bear the brunt.


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    #70
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    Pensioners are often asset rich and in particular are very likely to own their own home by the time they come to retirement age. They are entitled to free travel, medical card no matter their income - which may be substantial.
    As they get older they are also the greatest recipients of healthcare and of home/nursing care which again is State funded. That has to be paid for somehow.

    As the population changes the proportion of pensioners will massively increase compared to those currently in work.

    Meanwhile young people are stuck with high rents, high childcare costs, many finding it difficult to impossible to save a deposit or buy a home.

    When pensioners insist on the pension age remaining static they are simply passing on the cost to the next generation - already struggling - to fund them. The political parties should be ashamed of themselves for falling over themselves to placate them.


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    #71
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    lozenges wrote: »
    Pensioners are often asset rich and in particular are very likely to own their own home by the time they come to retirement age. They are entitled to free travel, medical card no matter their income - which may be substantial.
    As they get older they are also the greatest recipients of healthcare and of home/nursing care which again is State funded. That has to be paid for somehow.

    As the population changes the proportion of pensioners will massively increase compared to those currently in work.

    Meanwhile young people are stuck with high rents, high childcare costs, many finding it difficult to impossible to save a deposit or buy a home.

    When pensioners insist on the pension age remaining static they are simply passing on the cost to the next generation - already struggling - to fund them. The political parties should be ashamed of themselves for falling over themselves to placate them.

    true but the younger segment of the population really need to cop on to what is happening too


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    #72
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    "The demographics will look after itself"
    -- MLmD

    Jesus wept.


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    #73
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Let's see how this event plays out before any new decisions on the pension age. (GIS live data map of 2019-nCoV):
    https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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    #74
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    lozenges wrote: »
    Pensioners are often asset rich and in particular are very likely to own their own home by the time they come to retirement age. They are entitled to free travel, medical card no matter their income - which may be substantial.
    As they get older they are also the greatest recipients of healthcare and of home/nursing care which again is State funded. That has to be paid for somehow.

    As the population changes the proportion of pensioners will massively increase compared to those currently in work.

    Meanwhile young people are stuck with high rents, high childcare costs, many finding it difficult to impossible to save a deposit or buy a home.

    When pensioners insist on the pension age remaining static they are simply passing on the cost to the next generation - already struggling - to fund them. The political parties should be ashamed of themselves for falling over themselves to placate them.

    The "free travel" is usually restricted to off-peak hours so isnt as useful as you think. It is nonexistent outside the cities because of the chronic lack of rural buses....They don't means-test it because the bureaucracy involved in doing so would melt your head. As for your house, in old age, you paid handsomely for it, you are entitled to stay in it but the Govt will try and force you to sell it to pay for your care in hospital, unless you are a farmer, of course.


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    #75
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,078 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    lozenges wrote: »
    Pensioners are often asset rich and in particular are very likely to own their own home by the time they come to retirement age. They are entitled to free travel, medical card no matter their income - which may be substantial.
    As they get older they are also the greatest recipients of healthcare and of home/nursing care which again is State funded. That has to be paid for somehow.

    As the population changes the proportion of pensioners will massively increase compared to those currently in work.

    Meanwhile young people are stuck with high rents, high childcare costs, many finding it difficult to impossible to save a deposit or buy a home.

    When pensioners insist on the pension age remaining static they are simply passing on the cost to the next generation - already struggling - to fund them. The political parties should be ashamed of themselves for falling over themselves to placate them.

    Over 70’s are entitled to a GP Visit Card only not a full medical card


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    #76
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Raising the pension age gradually was one of the few adult things we were doing right as a country for the long-term. Everything else is short-term thinking. Younger people are going to be screwed in the future as the ratio of older people grows.

    Just a pity that it only took one election campaign for it to be all thrown away - thanks SF, look forward to more of this populist rubbish in the future.


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    #77
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Samara Bumpy Storybook wrote: »
    The French didn't agree with such proposed age rises, and so have now theirs reduced down to 64.

    In fairness, the French have a different education system and view of society I think. There your second level school more or less dictates your future role and level of education, what cog you'll fill in society.

    Here, 3rd level has now become the old Leaving Cert it seems. Most young people expect to go to 3rd level and not join regular employment till mid 20s.

    So your average French worker will likely start a few years before your Irish citizen. Hence earlier retirement?


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    #78
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Over 70’s are entitled to a GP Visit Card only not a full medical card

    Fair enough. The point though is that they are well looked after by the State and many are comfortably well off rather than poor and struggling as the media likes to portray.

    As others have pointed out as the demographics change and the ratio of people in work to those receiving a pension decreases, a smaller number is going to be expected to subsidise a growing population of pensioners. The burden will be disproportionately placed on younger people. That's unfair.

    Means testing the free travel, GP visit card and contributory State pension would be a start, but no party would be brave enough to do it.


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    #79
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    893bet wrote: »
    I am building a small private pension. Hopefully a reasonable one by the time I retire. A couple of 100 a week to add to the state one.

    My big fear is that in 20 years time who ever is in power will look and see “ah paddy fair play, you were wise when you were young and put a few quid away, tell you what we are going to means test the state pension and as you put a few quid away we are gonna **** you”.

    This is exactly what was happening already - government policy seems to have been that those with private pensions would use these to bridge the gap when any 'dole' payments would be means tested. Similar to the way that property is used to partly fund nursing home care and so on.

    I've no objection in principle to this logic as long as it's applied equitably and fairly across all sectors of society including public servants & politicians themselves.

    What has people's ire up is that they strongly suspect there's one rule for one group and another for the rest.. That will not wash.


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    #80
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Pension age should be 67 for public and private , cut off the non contributory pension for people born from 2002 onwards, adapt the contributory pension to needing 30 years of contributions, put in place a worplace pension plan like the UK where your employer matches euro for euro up to 15,000 a year.


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    #81
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    All TD's get one pension based on time served in public office. That's it.


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    #82
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    TDs also get ministerial pensions, lump sums, a seat on a committee guarantees more money, free parking in Dail Eireann for life, free post, free printing, etc,etc. No wonder they'd stab their mothers to become TDs...if they get into Europe, it's money for jam.


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    #83
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    So, the main argument for pushing the pension age away is that there are not enough contributors to the national pension fund, as it stands, to pay for anticipated (not proven) pension demands so they established a pension reserve fund and then raided it to keep German pensioners in sauerkraut, because the EU told them to and they stung us for the bill. I think we should all move to Germany, specifically to Frau Merkel's town and get our pensions there. The EU allows us to do this. If anyone asks, we'll just say that "Mutti" will look after us, like she protected her citizens before ours.
    So, solutions as we see it: Force everyone to open a pension, the day they start work......give everyone a PRSA account,force them to put AVCs into it and then restrain from taxing the **** out of it......force people to open a credit union account, give them a pension tax credit for every year they hold an active account, to reward saving instead of penalising it; promote early retirement, to get old farts out of the workforce and leave room for newbies. If you've been paying a pension for 40 years, eff off and spend it. Irish pensions are based on the 40/60ths system so anything after 40 years contributions is essentially wasted, especially if your employer closed down the pension, like they did in my job........ If you volunteer to work longer than 65, you're a mug. I'd rather be on an Italian beach than commuting in Irish rain in January. Save as much as you can and get out early.


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    #84
    Philo62
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭Philo62


    hmmm wrote: »
    Raising the pension age gradually was one of the few adult things we were doing right as a country for the long-term. Everything else is short-term thinking. Younger people are going to be screwed in the future as the ratio of older people grows.

    Just a pity that it only took one election campaign for it to be all thrown away - thanks SF, look forward to more of this populist rubbish in the future.

    Good point & it seems to the point majority are missing. This Failure to stick with the change if it comes about is a big FU to the younger workers who will have to foot the bill. They will have to foot an ever increasing bill because the cowardly political parties primary concern is getting elected not doing the right thing. They will continue to pander to the grey vote as it grows. In a time of full employment & extending life expectancy the focus should be on retaining people in the workforce & retraining people in more physically strenuous jobs to do something else less physically taxing.


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    #85
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,112 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    So, the main argument for pushing the pension age away is that there are not enough contributors to the national pension fund, as it stands, to pay for anticipated (not proven) pension demands so they established a pension reserve fund and then raided it to keep German pensioners in sauerkraut, because the EU told them to and they stung us for the bill. I think we should all move to Germany, specifically to Frau Merkel's town and get our pensions there. The EU allows us to do this. If anyone asks, we'll just say that "Mutti" will look after us, like she protected her citizens before ours.
    So, solutions as we see it: Force everyone to open a pension, the day they start work......give everyone a PRSA account,force them to put AVCs into it and then restrain from taxing the **** out of it......force people to open a credit union account, give them a pension tax credit for every year they hold an active account, to reward saving instead of penalising it; promote early retirement, to get old farts out of the workforce and leave room for newbies. If you've been paying a pension for 40 years, eff off and spend it. Irish pensions are based on the 40/60ths system so anything after 40 years contributions is essentially wasted, especially if your employer closed down the pension, like they did in my job........ If you volunteer to work longer than 65, you're a mug. I'd rather be on an Italian beach than commuting in Irish rain in January. Save as much as you can and get out early.

    Paragraphs dude......


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    #86
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,226 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Pension age should be 67 for public and private , cut off the non contributory pension for people born from 2002 onwards, adapt the contributory pension to needing 30 years of contributions, put in place a worplace pension plan like the UK where your employer matches euro for euro up to 15,000 a year.

    The non-contributory pension should be frozen and the age increased to 70.

    That would save enough money so that the contributory pension, which is paid to those who paid PRSI for 40 years would be protected.


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    #87
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    All TD's get one pension based on time served in public office. That's it.

    That's the way it works anyways.


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    #88
    pure.conya
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭pure.conya


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    Can anyone explain why, in an intelligent fashion,why the pension age has to be pushed out to 68? I'm of the opinion that the Govt are only doing so because Europe or the Troika told them to do so, while protecting pension rights for more expensive workers like the Germans or French? Why should we tolerate the pension mess?

    they're doing it because why not, sure we don't give a sh1t, not a damn thing will unify this country to the point where government decisions will be reversed and not cost us dearly


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    #89
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    893bet wrote: »
    My big fear is that in 20 years time who ever is in power will look and see “ah paddy fair play, you were wise when you were young and put a few quid away, tell you what we are going to means test the state pension and as you put a few quid away we are gonna **** you”.

    Unfortunately, I think that not only will they seek to deprive you of the State pension, but they'll probably tax the fcuk out of your private pension.

    The money will then be given to lads that have never contributed a red cent to the State coffers in their life.

    The prudent will be once again raided to pay for the reckless and feckless and populist arsehole parties like SF will champion the move because of "fairness".

    The day the Government decided to dip into our private pension pots in 2013, we should have blocked the streets, most of us were too busy working trying to keep a roof over our heads and pay for everything else in the country.


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    #90
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    893bet wrote: »
    I am building a small private pension. Hopefully a reasonable one by the time I retire. A couple of 100 a week to add to the state one.

    My big fear is that in 20 years time who ever is in power will look and see “ah paddy fair play, you were wise when you were young and put a few quid away, tell you what we are going to means test the state pension and as you put a few quid away we are gonna **** you”.

    This is what happens and why we have a dismal private pension participation rate. Governments can't be trusted with pensions.

    I first took out a pension plan in the early 80's. All the advantages were explained to me at the time, including tax breaks, long term investment projections and the cruncher... the government couldn't touch my savings. It was all protected .... until the big crash and they changed to rules to allow them to raid the pot. That and the gradual withdrawl of various old age benefits such as free landline phone and the imposition of new 'levies' such as, bin charges, property tax and the means testing of old age medical cards.... all will result in my private pension having to pay for far more than originally expected - making it obviously worth less in disposable income terms.

    The above is why the private pension takeup is so low. The answer will be to have a compulsory 'private?' pension contribution scheme imposed on people. Wasn't this what the state pension was supposed to be?


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    #91
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    Wasn't this what the state pension was supposed to be?
    Yes - back in the day when they ratio of working people to retired people supported it.

    Those days are gone and it's predicted to get a lot worse - just two workers per retired person predicted by 2050.

    We need to be looking at lot less at the past in this debate and start looking at the future.


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