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Is the west tired of Democracy?

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    #92
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    mariaalice wrote: »
    A lot of it might be to do with the fact that people are better educated and are challenged more its a lot harder for the average person to stay in their bubble blaming the rich, the elite, the poor, the welfare state because now their views will be challenged with evidence so the comfort of blaming others as a coping mechanism is harder to maintain.

    Also, it was easier before mass education and ideas about an opportunity for everyone because there was little or no reflection on their position in life, there were no other choices if you had a 6-acre farm and 10 children or were working in a coal mine or were an aristocrat that was considered the natural order of things.

    So people are sick of democracy because they are better educated?


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    #93
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    paddythere wrote: »
    I think the problem is the fact that poverty is growing despite all of the wealth in the world.

    Its not though, world poverty is decreasing.
    DxSZ58_XQAAoxM8?format=jpg&name=medium


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    #94
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    paddythere wrote: »
    So people are sick of democracy because they are better educated?

    The question it more because of better education.


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    #95
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The question it more because of better education.

    I don't agree that better education leads to the questioning of the desirability of democracy. I do think that WORSE education leads to that though.


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    #96
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    McHardcore wrote: »
    Its not though, world poverty is decreasing.
    DxSZ58_XQAAoxM8?format=jpg&name=medium

    Not everybody agrees with that data as i'm sure your probably aware.

    For example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/29/bill-gates-davos-global-poverty-infographic-neoliberal

    From what I can observe personally, living standards are being slowly driven down, working conditions and working rights are in trouble, and more and more wealth is ending up in the hands of a few powerful people. Over decades, this can have a devastating effect on a previously prosperous nation (as I beleive we are starting to see)


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    #97
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    mariaalice wrote: »
    A lot of it might be to do with the fact that people are better educated and are challenged more its a lot harder for the average person to stay in their bubble blaming the rich, the elite, the poor, the welfare state because now their views will be challenged with evidence so the comfort of blaming others as a coping mechanism is harder to maintain.

    Also, it was easier before mass education and ideas about an opportunity for everyone because there was little or no reflection on their position in life, there were no other choices if you had a 6-acre farm and 10 children or were working in a coal mine or were an aristocrat that was considered the natural order of things.

    Yup! That’s why the then uneducated French were extremely passive about their position as serfs and being downtrodden by the aristocracy and never did anything remotely revolutionary to establish a Republic.

    The Irish also just knew our place and never had any uprising.

    It was only in the late 20th century when we all had degrees that we got into our time machines and went back to the 1700s and 1800s to rise up against oppressors.

    ... ?!?
    (Read in sarcastic tone)


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    #98
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    paddythere wrote: »
    I don't agree that better education leads to the questioning of the desirability of democracy. I do think that WORSE education leads to that though.

    Well yes, but education gives people the tools to question things before mass education it was harder to question the system.


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    #99
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    440Hertz wrote: »
    Yup! That’s why the then uneducated French were extremely passive about their position as serfs and being downtrodden by the aristocracy and never did anything remotely revolutionary to establish a Republic.

    The Irish also just knew our place and never had any uprising.

    It was only in the late 20th century when we all had degrees that we got into our time machines and went back to the 1700s and 1800s to rise up against oppressors.

    ... ?!?
    (Read in sarcastic tone)

    I did not say the recent past, there had to be a reason the right of man was written in 1791 and not 1691 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Man


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    #100
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Well yes, but education gives people the tools to question things before mass education it was harder to question the system.

    I'm not so sure. I think the modern education system actually helps to prevent people from questioning the system.


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    #101
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    440Hertz wrote: »
    That’s a rather blind over simplification of it. A huge amount of it couldn’t be described as state capitalism - there’s an element of spending for altruistic and socially cohesive purposes.

    Known as welfare capitalism. Another aspect of the terrible beast that some people want to destroy whilst having no proven workable alternative that is a marked improvement.

    Property rights, voluntary exchange and wage labour, the basic tenants of capitalism that make it the best choice for the average citizen and the worst for the oligarchs, the megalomaniacs and the corrupt.


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    #102
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    paddythere wrote: »
    I'm not so sure. I think the modern education system actually helps to prevent people from questioning the system.

    It depends on its content and how it’s framed.

    I went to school in 3 countries : Ireland, US & France.

    The French approach to education is very much steeped in French revolutionary ideology of questioning absolutely everything. You certainly never got the sense it was trying to produce unquestioning subjects. You regularly got hit with profound stuff in philosophy classes (which are compulsory). Like I remember having a heated debate about the legitimacy of state monopoly on violence and there was no right or wrong answer, as long as you could argue your points logically.

    I found the American approach to a lot of it was very dogmatic and there’s a tendency to worship the structures of state, a bit like how you’d teach religion in w Catholic school. There was a lot of talk about founding fathers and how great American democracy is and very little discussion about it. That was coupled with things like pledging allegiance to the flag! From my experience of Americans, unless they actually study history or political science at a more senior level, probably university, they tend not to have much of an exposure to constructive critique of systems and concepts.

    Then in Ireland I found there’s a lot of discussion but it’s not very structured. We didn’t really seem to get exposed to much civics at all but there’s a smattering of it through other subjects, particularly history but even in English, political topics are brushed upon. When there was political discussion, it was very open though and I think the level of public debate in Ireland is a lot more reasoned and informed than in the US.

    The French can disappear into fairly narrow bunkers sometimes too, but that’s probably down to the lack of proportional representation there and the two round run off voting system.

    But in my experience, education opens up debate and questions and empowers people and also keeps democracy clean and alive.

    I think the US is going through a strange period of anti intellectualism and is quite dogmatically educated to be patriotic above all else.

    I never really felt the French or the Irish had that utterly blind patriotism element. They both tend to see government as something that should do what it’s told and not that government or presidents are something that should get automatic respect.


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    #103
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,108 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    paddythere wrote: »
    So people are sick of democracy because they are better educated?

    More a case of being mor aware of it and not putting as much faith in it. A bit like religion.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #104
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    paddythere wrote: »
    From what I can observe personally, living standards are being slowly driven down, working conditions and working rights are in trouble, and more and more wealth is ending up in the hands of a few powerful people. Over decades, this can have a devastating effect on a previously prosperous nation (as I beleive we are starting to see)

    Bill Gates is not the only source that number of people in poverty is reducing. The World Bank and the UN give evidence of the same.
    Screen_Shot_2014-12-12_at_10.34.38_AM.0.png

    Unfortunately, In public opinion surveys around the world, people surveyed tend to incorrectly think that extreme poverty has not decreased.

    Your not the only person in this thread to use personal accounts, like their childhood trips to the UK or what their relatives told them, as evidence that poverty is increasing.
    This is anecdotal evidence, and should not qualify as scientific evidence.


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    #105
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    McHardcore wrote: »
    Bill Gates is not the only source that number of people in poverty is reducing. The World Bank and the UN give evidence of the same.
    Screen_Shot_2014-12-12_at_10.34.38_AM.0.png

    Unfortunately, In public opinion surveys around the world, people surveyed tend to incorrectly think that extreme poverty has not decreased.

    Your not the only person in this thread to use personal accounts, like their childhood trips to the UK or what their relatives told them, as evidence that poverty is increasing.
    This is anecdotal evidence, and should not qualify as scientific evidence.

    You think economic studies conducted by the World Bank and the UN are "scientific evidence".


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    #106
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    paddythere wrote: »
    You think economic studies conducted by the World Bank and the UN are "scientific evidence".

    As opposed to what? Deranged rants on social media?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #107
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    As opposed to what? Deranged rants on social media?

    As opposed to other studies which use different measures of poverty and get different results.

    For example, the World Economic Forum has argued that poverty has grown in 17 of the 29 most advanced countries (which is what we are talking about here since I specifically referred to the west in my original post)

    http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Forum_IncGrwth_2018.pdf


    Child poverty in OECD countries is also on the rise according to the OECD

    http://www.oecd.org/els/family/Poor-children-in-rich-countries-Policy-brief-2018.pdf


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    #108
    truth and logic
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭truth and logic


    It's pretty obvious that poverty should be decreasing given our use of fossil fuels and our use of advanced technologies. It shouldn't be controversial to say poverty is decreasing.

    People are growing increasingly unhappy with representative democracy as representative democracy is not delivering for them.

    We could move to Direct Democracy, where voters vote directly on every issue, by logging in on the internet and voting. Of course, you could assign your vote to a politician of your choice and then for you nothing would be different to the current system, that politician would make decisions for you. At any time you could withdraw your vote from that politician and assign it to a different politician or you could just vote yourself.

    This is a great idea and I hope for some debate on its merits.

    If people say, well, ordinary voters aren't experts on every topic. Well, no, but neither are politicians, and you can always assign your vote to a politician and let him or her choose for you.

    This is a better system but politicians wouldn't like it. You'd end up with lots of Boaty McBoatface decisions though so a benevolent dictator might be better.


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    #109
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    paddythere wrote: »
    As opposed to other studies which use different measures of poverty and get different results.

    For example, the World Economic Forum has argued that poverty has grown in 17 of the 29 most advanced countries (which is what we are talking about here since I specifically referred to the west in my original post)

    http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Forum_IncGrwth_2018.pdf


    Child poverty in OECD countries is also on the rise according to the OECD

    http://www.oecd.org/els/family/Poor-children-in-rich-countries-Policy-brief-2018.pdf

    It would have better if you'd started with this instead of just casting aspersions.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #110
    paddythere
    Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭paddythere


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It would have better if you'd started with this instead of just casting aspersions.

    I already posted the Jason Hickel article arguing that studies showing poverty is decreasing are flawed.


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    #111
    440Hertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭440Hertz


    You’ve seen a slight increase in poverty for several reasons:

    1) The 2008 economic crash had a very much more profound impact that many like to admit. That’s still working through the system & will be now further complicated by COVID. Hopefully, the stimulus packages might actually reset a lot of things.

    2) Rapidly changing business environment and a shift to higher technology, off shoring of manufacturing abs a shift to services based industries in many western countries has seen a big rise in blue collar unemployment.

    3) There’s been a shift towards neoliberalism in economic policies in a lot of western countries over the past few decades and that’s driven increasing wealth divides. More governments are centre right on economic issues than they were in say the 1970s

    Oddly, despite the rhetoric here, we haven’t been experiencing growing income inequality in Ireland. We’re one of the few places that are in that position. We’ve also a more mixed economy than the U.K. in particular, although we are very heavily dependent on MNCs, but we have had a strategy of creating a broader range of job types.

    Ireland’s main issue around poverty has been housing, which is largely spinning out of the last credit crunch, rapid growth and lack of adequate planning for that growth.

    It’s just a bit inaccurate and even dangerous to assume that Ireland is going through exactly the same struggles as the US or the UK, or that Western Europe and the US are having the same issues with their respective attitudes to democracy. They all have quite different sets of circumstances and political histories.


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    #112
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,108 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    440Hertz wrote: »
    It depends on its content and how it’s framed.

    I went to school in 3 countries : Ireland, US & France.

    The French approach to education is very much steeped in French revolutionary ideology of questioning absolutely everything. You certainly never got the sense it was trying to produce unquestioning subjects. You regularly got hit with profound stuff in philosophy classes (which are compulsory). Like I remember having a heated debate about the legitimacy of state monopoly on violence and there was no right or wrong answer, as long as you could argue your points logically.

    I found the American approach to a lot of it was very dogmatic and there’s a tendency to worship the structures of state, a bit like how you’d teach religion in w Catholic school. There was a lot of talk about founding fathers and how great American democracy is and very little discussion about it. That was coupled with things like pledging allegiance to the flag! From my experience of Americans, unless they actually study history or political science at a more senior level, probably university, they tend not to have much of an exposure to constructive critique of systems and concepts.

    Then in Ireland I found there’s a lot of discussion but it’s not very structured. We didn’t really seem to get exposed to much civics at all but there’s a smattering of it through other subjects, particularly history but even in English, political topics are brushed upon. When there was political discussion, it was very open though and I think the level of public debate in Ireland is a lot more reasoned and informed than in the US.

    The French can disappear into fairly narrow bunkers sometimes too, but that’s probably down to the lack of proportional representation there and the two round run off voting system.

    But in my experience, education opens up debate and questions and empowers people and also keeps democracy clean and alive.

    I think the US is going through a strange period of anti intellectualism and is quite dogmatically educated to be patriotic above all else.

    I never really felt the French or the Irish had that utterly blind patriotism element. They both tend to see government as something that should do what it’s told and not that government or presidents are something that should get automatic respect.

    Observations on education:

    France - this would explain why they do demonstations seriously.

    US - it always came across as very conformist and indoctrinating. Especially with regards to teaching Darwinism and creationism. And as you say, the pledge of allegiance.

    Ireland - somewhere in the middle. Too much empasis on national identity (history, Irish) and not enough on personal identity (debate, discussion, politics and social issues). The real problem though is that it doesn't educate at all, it's just an application process for third level.

    Consequently, we know about democracy but we don't know about the politics and aren't equipped to find, process and effectively question the information we need to vote and thus act democratically. Case in point - some of the pro-Trump arguments in the US election threads.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #113
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Maybe, but you could say the achievements in the West were built on the backs of people in the East.
    You could say it, how accurate it would be would be another matter. Yes many European nations made fortunes out of empire, but the enlightenment and the industrial revolution were internal shifts that didn't happen elsewhere. One of the few periods in history since the time of Christ where Europe wasn't at the the top of food production, productivity and population wealth was during the Tang dynasty in China, which was during the so called "Dark Ages" in Europe. Look at Eastern innovations like printing, gunpowder, the compass, the ship's rudder, where were they exploited, improved and reached their zenith?*
    Bambi wrote: »
    Oddly enough, the sea change in the 70s was we finally doubled the workforce with women entering it en masse, ya won't see the whingers mentioning that though
    Which could be argued was a double edged sword and more for economic and consumerist interests than for a political gender shift(or personal contentment). Doubling the workforce equals more consumers(and lord knows how women have been targetted and exploited by that) and more workers to make the stuff to be consumed. Light the blue touchpaper of "easy" credit and bang.




    *nada to do with some innate European "superiority" either. All about geopolitics in a small enough area, fierce internal competition but a shared overall basic culture, more social mobility and religious and philosophical differences that are innate to the European cultural psyche.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #114
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    KungPao wrote: »
    It’s the only system that works, comrade.

    There's also one other system that capitalism works for.

    That's the dictatorship of China run by Xi Jinping and the CCP.

    94 Million get rich while 1.4 Billion plus live in poverty.

    Works for Xi Jinping


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    #115
    average hero
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭average hero


    No, I dont think the west is tired of democracy. Everyone wants to vote and get their voices heard but people become a bit despondent when the outcome isnt the right one for them.

    New age capitalism is what people are tired of. Years ago, one breadwinner could sustain a spouse and a family of 4 kids. While I understand we have more modern luxuries and bills now, a young single person working can barely save up for their own property. This causes stress and affects people starting families and birth rates etc.

    So while the above happens, the populace gets demoralised and pulled into more polar extremes looking for stability and safety. In Britain this led to Brexit, Trump in the USA and in Ireland our form of nationalism is more left-leaning so leads us to vote Sinn Fein. It is a different side to the same coin, but its still us wrapping ourselves up in the flag - sure they deserve a chance sort of rhetoric.

    With the onset of social media, these feelings and rhetoric are spreading very quickly and the ability off bad actors such as Russia and China to interfere is massive - this is separate to the agendas that traditional media has anyway.

    So how do we conquer this? VERY broadly - Provide more decent work, stop eroding away workers rights, educate students in computer science and balance it with incentives for entrepreneurs to start businesses. To inspire hope.


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    #116
    bertiebomber
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭bertiebomber


    what democracy we are bullied and have no say in anything happening in our country!!


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    #117
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,979 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    440Hertz wrote: »
    There are many approaches to democracy.
    I mean, if you look at ours, it’s full based on a proportional representation parliamentary system. We have low barriers to entry, campaigns are simple and cheap to carry out - still mostly about posters and knocking on doors. We have relatively weak (and increasingly so) parties and power isn’t very concentrated and there’s very easy access.

    We’ve also made use of referenda and increasingly use participatory and deliberative democracy through the Citizens Assembly model and we have managed to have very mature, nuanced and in-depth national debates around some very challenging issues ahead of several recent referenda.

    Then contrast that with say the much older US system with a two party democracy, that’s been basically drifting towards elected autocracy, and that isn’t just my opinion, it’s a big concern being raised by academics and those conducting studies.

    Compared to America, Ireland is a democratic mecca.

    America's never really been a true democracy however. It's labelled as such and trumpeted ad nauseum, but the reality is is that it's governed by a single party entity that has exceedingly slight differences. It's Republican and Not so Republican. They get to do a switcheroo every few years, giving voters an impression that things have changed. But very little actually does.

    The entire political system in the States needs to be gutted and completely reformed to allow voters actual choice from a wide range of parties. Not the two cheeks of the same arse that has been in effect over there and has been even more pronounced since the Reagan era.

    It won't happen, of course. Certainly not in my lifetime anyway. So, that country is doomed to carry out its depressing rinse/repeat cycle for the foreseeable future.


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    #118
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,979 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    McHardcore wrote: »
    Its not though, world poverty is decreasing.
    DxSZ58_XQAAoxM8?format=jpg&name=medium


    The caveat to each of the graphs you've posted is the term "EXTREME" poverty.

    What about just poverty.

    "Extreme" poverty may be on a decrease. But a disturbing rise of the likes of food banks in the UK would suggest that all is not as hunky dory as those graphs would like to portray.


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    #119
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The caveat to each of the graphs you've posted is the term "EXTREME" poverty.

    What about just poverty.

    "Extreme" poverty may be on a decrease. But a disturbing rise of the likes of food banks in the UK would suggest that all is not as hunky dory as those graphs would like to portray.

    Poverty is a terrible part of our society, but extreme poverty is far worse. I wouldn't discount its decrease as a strong metric of success of our society over the last century or so.

    A couple of points on your post on UK food banks:
    1. Is this suggested increase common to western countries (not just in one corner case like the UK).
    2. Is this increase only in the last couple of years? If so, Can this increase be attributed to the last recession, as 440Hertz pointed out?
    3. Are there sources? Preferably figures on poverty, not indirect figures from the number of food banks.

    Lastly, if you are interested in just the poverty figures, have a look at the data and graph from the World Bank that shows that this too is decreasing.


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