How wealthy was William Martin Murphy?

Director Of Finance · 30-09-2017 7:28pm #1

Considering he was a Catholic, William Martin Murphy was born into a pretty wealthy family business which he took control of and expanded. He attended Old Belvedere college not long after Catholic Emancipation and his family held control of independent newspapers up until the 1970s before Tony O'Reilly took control.
Does anyone know how much he was worth at his peak and does he have any living descendants?

tabbey · 30-09-2017 9:05pm

In normal circumstances, we could see the net value of his estate in the Will Calendar. However 1919 is different, a handwritten version without the financial detail. This is probably something connected to the revolution / civil disorder taking place over the 1920 - 22 period.

T 5311 is the file you need to order in the National Archives of Ireland, you can then read the wil etc in the NAI reading room.

pinkypinky · 30-09-2017 9:13pm

Also, his will might not survive, presumably proved in the principal registry and stored in the Four Courts.

tabbey · 30-09-2017 9:22pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Also, his will might not survive, presumably proved in the principal registry and stored in the Four Courts.

Wills were deposited in the Public Record Office twenty years after probate, where Dublin (Principal Registry) hibernated in the meantime, I do not know, but most wills from about 1906 survive. In this case what is shown on the calendar is a T (Testamentary) number, so perhaps a certified copy or just an extract.

feargale · 30-09-2017 9:37pm

Director Of Finance wrote: »

does he have any living descendants?

RTE did a programme on him in recent years which, if I remember correctly, held a balance between approval and condemnation. There was an interview with a Murphy who worked with the Indo until recent times. I believe he was a grandson.

harry Bailey esq · 30-09-2017 10:28pm

A native of Bantry in West Cork, The extended family were /are significant landowners. Catholic landowners,but considered upper class in society. The family haven't strayed as a whole from Bantry/ beara few flecked off to America that's about it.
Considering where he hails from, in the era he lived through, it's understandable that he's not remembered with kindness by the people of Bantry, nor should he be for that matter. In Dublin he was just greedy prick.

harry Bailey esq · 30-09-2017 10:32pm

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

A native of Bantry in West Cork, The extended family were /are significant landowners. Catholic landowners,but considered upper class in society. The family haven't strayed as a whole from Bantry/ beara few flecked off to America that's about it.
Considering where he hails from, in the era he lived through, it's understandable that he's not remembered with kindness by the people of Bantry, nor should he be for that matter. In Dublin he was just greedy prick.

Edit : five businesses are still run by descendents. Only one uses the name Murphy as part of its trading address.

tabbey · 01-10-2017 11:13am

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

. In Dublin he was just greedy prick.

This is not true.

Murphy was more than the above.
He was a philanthropist.
He was a businessman.
He was an employer who provided his workers with decent housing.
He made enormous improvements to Dublin.

Agreed, he made a profit, arguably at his workers expense, but most business people did, and continue to do so.

Murphy is mostly regarded as a bad man because he led the employers in standing up to Jim Larkin. Most people today would love to have somebody stand up to the NBRU etc, who have no concern for workers or the travelling public, only for their own power, influence and paypackets.

The lockout of 1913 started as a strike. If Murphy was responsible for the poverty and suffering which ensued, so too was Larkin. There are two sides to all disputes. By today's standards, we side with the workers of 1913, but by the standards of 1913, Murphy was a good employer.

Murphy developed the Dublin tramway network with great skill and determination, using his own money, which could have gone down the river, if only we had the same efficiency today. He provided his workers with individual homes adjacent to their workplace, small by our standards, but small palaces for the workers families, who were accustomed to sharing sanitary facilities with neighbours and any passers-by.

Murphy is condemned for stripping valuable fireplaces out of Georgian buildings which he let as tenements. The poor of Dublin wanted food and warmth, not valuable antiques. By this asset stripping, he enabled rents to be kept within the budget of tenants.

William Martin Murphy may have been partially how he was described in the other post, but he also did the state some service, no more of that.

pedroeibar1 · 01-10-2017 11:19am

Director Of Finance wrote: »

Considering he was a Catholic, William Martin Murphy was born into a pretty wealthy family business which he took control of and expanded. He attended Old Belvedere college not long after Catholic Emancipation and his family held control of independent newspapers up until the 1970s before Tony O'Reilly took control.
Does anyone know how much he was worth at his peak and does he have any living descendants?

Not a very accurate post.
When was his peak? Many businessmen are wealthier when they are small rather than big - it's a matter of gearing.

WMM’s father started as a small farmer and stonemason in Castletownbere before moving to Bantry. They were ‘comfortable’ and not wealthy.
‘Old Belvedere’ is a rugby club, not a school, which is called Belvedere College, opened in 1832 (3 years after Catholic Emancipation) the Jesuits had schools in the area from the 1700’s. And WMM was yet to be born. He stayed with a family/digs when at Belvedere, another indication that his family was not very wealthy, otherwise he would have been sent to its sister school, Clongowes, which would have cost considerably more.
On the death of his father WMM aged just 18 took over the business. WMM was a highly successful businessman at the age of 25 when he married and mature beyond his years - even at school his friends were considerably older then he, one being Sullivan who ran the Nation after Gavin Duffy. WMM worked there while in school, hence the interest that later grew into the acquisition of the Freemans Journal.
You are also inaccurate with your claims on the Freeman’s Journal – you should research some of the articles written on it by Felix Larkin.

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

A native of Bantry in West Cork, The extended family were /are significant landowners. Catholic landowners,but considered upper class in society. The family haven't strayed as a whole from Bantry/ beara few flecked off to America that's about it.
Considering where he hails from, in the era he lived through, it's understandable that he's not remembered with kindness by the people of Bantry, nor should he be for that matter. In Dublin he was just greedy prick.

Rubbish.
WMM’s was born in Castletownbere, not a native of Bantry. Even in West Cork Denis Murphy would not be considered ‘upper class’. Nor have I heard disparaging remarks about his son WMM or family members in Bantry. Most Irish people have a half-a$$ed understanding of WMM and his accomplishments, and the Left, the majority of which knows little/nothing of the man beyond the 'Lockout', trot out its vitriolic clichés. Mention his name to any trade unionist and they foam at the mouth. Murphy was a man of his era, a successful one, and of course the usual Irish begrudgery is obliged to kick in. Not to mention judging historical events by modern-day standards.

pedroeibar1 · 01-10-2017 11:21am

Crossed posts Tabbey!

steddyeddy · 01-10-2017 10:46pm

tabbey wrote: »

This is not true.

Murphy was more than the above.
He was a philanthropist.
He was a businessman.
He was an employer who provided his workers with decent housing.
He made enormous improvements to Dublin.

Agreed, he made a profit, arguably at his workers expense, but most business people did, and continue to do so.

Murphy is mostly regarded as a bad man because he led the employers in standing up to Jim Larkin. Most people today would love to have somebody stand up to the NBRU etc, who have no concern for workers or the travelling public, only for their own power, influence and paypackets.

The lockout of 1913 started as a strike. If Murphy was responsible for the poverty and suffering which ensued, so too was Larkin. There are two sides to all disputes. By today's standards, we side with the workers of 1913, but by the standards of 1913, Murphy was a good employer.

Murphy developed the Dublin tramway network with great skill and determination, using his own money, which could have gone down the river, if only we had the same efficiency today. He provided his workers with individual homes adjacent to their workplace, small by our standards, but small palaces for the workers families, who were accustomed to sharing sanitary facilities with neighbours and any passers-by.

Murphy is condemned for stripping valuable fireplaces out of Georgian buildings which he let as tenements. The poor of Dublin wanted food and warmth, not valuable antiques. By this asset stripping, he enabled rents to be kept within the budget of tenants.

William Martin Murphy may have been partially how he was described in the other post, but he also did the state some service, no more of that.

You can't compare Larkin to the unions of today. WMM was on the wrong side of the debate.

How wealthy was William Martin Murphy?

Comments