What happens when we die?

Dr. Bre · 02-11-2020 12:14am

saabsaab wrote: »

Unless you can come Bach

Bach from the dead

jmlad2020 · 02-11-2020 1:07am

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The theory of your brain releasing its final flood of comforting hormones as life ends is credible and certainly would explain the common experiences of tunnels of light, feelings of peace and a sensation of floating above your body. Like a natural pain killer to ease the cessation of life.

But...it doesnt explain other aspects that thousands of people experience such as meeting people that they never met before, being able to see certain objects and recollect specific conversations between people when technically brain dead. Taking away conditioned religious upbringing theres enough variety there to convince me there may be something else beyond this world.

If one experiences DMT or magic mushrooms in high doses one can often meet entities, spirits etc and converse with them. The brain produces DMT apparently. Maybe a flood of brain chemicals can explain for the things you pointed out.

Leg End Reject · 02-11-2020 2:03am

You're dead. The only ones who can give accurate details aren't here.

In a way it's better not to know. If you're religious, agnostic or atheist you can die on your own terms.

valoren · 02-11-2020 11:07am

There are two aspects for me. What happens to your consciousness and what happens to your body which houses and enables that consciousness to function. Clinical death is simply a failure of your body to facilitate the delicate balance required to sustain consciousness. You literally black out. Permanently. Your own personal consciousness ends as the mechanism i.e. your brain/body/senses can no longer perceive the physical world. The crude analogy is an electric circuit. Remove the battery and the current stops but the physical constituents of the mechanism remains. It just doesn't work or do any work anymore. The other aspect is what happens to your body. The hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen atoms and the molecules they coalesce into are still present after you die. If you get cremated then you will mostly be carbon. If you're buried then you chemically decompose in the earth itself.

This leads onto what happens to the earth itself and all of the atoms which make us and everything else up. Earth will ultimately get consumed when our star burns through it's fuel. Whatever forms of "life" on earth, be they physical or mechanical, will inevitably perish during that process. There is the hypotheses of the Big Crunch/Bounce which is one I would subscribe to. Ultimately all matter in the galaxies of the universe end up in the singularity of the supermassive black holes at their galactic centre via gravity. Over the course of trillions of years these billions of supermassive black holes will, again via gravity, slowly converge on themselves and collide. The Milky Way's black hole, and all of us, will participate. Ultimately we all end up with a hyper massive black hole containing all the matter of our universe. This black hole itself evaporates over the course of another trillion years or so until we're left with a primordial singularity with infinite density. As energy is a conserved quantity then all of the energy of the universe we knew is contained in that single point. This might lie dormant again for a few trillion years until a quantum fluctuation releases that energy into another universe. Whether this new universe has the proper conditions to allow it's particles to form into matter and ultimately into life will be down to probability. We're just part of that process, one which to us happened to work, and so we should be thankful, given the mind boggling scale of this process, to participate in it for even a short time.

saabsaab · 02-11-2020 2:06pm

Other current theories suggest that time itself is an illusion and that all that is is present.

COVID · 02-11-2020 2:30pm

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Bach from the dead

The only Bach who could come back from the dead is JC Bach.

saabsaab · 02-11-2020 7:23pm

valoren wrote: »

There are two aspects for me. What happens to your consciousness and what happens to your body which houses and enables that consciousness to function. Clinical death is simply a failure of your body to facilitate the delicate balance required to sustain consciousness. You literally black out. Permanently. Your own personal consciousness ends as the mechanism i.e. your brain/body/senses can no longer perceive the physical world. The crude analogy is an electric circuit. Remove the battery and the current stops but the physical constituents of the mechanism remains. It just doesn't work or do any work anymore. The other aspect is what happens to your body. The hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen atoms and the molecules they coalesce into are still present after you die. If you get cremated then you will mostly be carbon. If you're buried then you chemically decompose in the earth itself.

This leads onto what happens to the earth itself and all of the atoms which make us and everything else up. Earth will ultimately get consumed when our star burns through it's fuel. Whatever forms of "life" on earth, be they physical or mechanical, will inevitably perish during that process. There is the hypotheses of the Big Crunch/Bounce which is one I would subscribe to. Ultimately all matter in the galaxies of the universe end up in the singularity of the supermassive black holes at their galactic centre via gravity. Over the course of trillions of years these billions of supermassive black holes will, again via gravity, slowly converge on themselves and collide. The Milky Way's black hole, and all of us, will participate. Ultimately we all end up with a hyper massive black hole containing all the matter of our universe. This black hole itself evaporates over the course of another trillion years or so until we're left with a primordial singularity with infinite density. As energy is a conserved quantity then all of the energy of the universe we knew is contained in that single point. This might lie dormant again for a few trillion years until a quantum fluctuation releases that energy into another universe. Whether this new universe has the proper conditions to allow it's particles to form into matter and ultimately into life will be down to probability. We're just part of that process, one which to us happened to work, and so we should be thankful, given the mind boggling scale of this process, to participate in it for even a short time.

Well? see below that questions current thinking.

https://opensciences.org/gary-schwartz

Hyperbollix · 01-01-2021 5:54pm

It's just like drifting off for a restful, dreamless night's sleep.......

Except you never wake up.

upupup · 01-01-2021 7:49pm

The mind doesn't wake up after you die but consciousness survives.It never dies as it was never born,just always was and is constantly changing.

There are three states we are subjected to here.
Awake state.Consciousness is in the body and mind.
Dreaming state.Consciousness withdraws from the body to the mind alone.
Dreamless sleep.Consciousness withdraws from the body and the mind but is still aware..we wake up and start our new day.When we die consciousness leaves and forgets the body and mind forever and moves to that dreamless sleep state,but it then becomes aware of its full spectrum without the constant nagging of the mind.
When we die is when we really wake up.

Stacksofwacks · 01-01-2021 7:59pm

I'm not convinced of an afterlife and veer towards that will be it, but I did fall off a bike when I was young and crashed into a wall(at speed) and saw myself floating overhead, a strange experience that stuck with me so I still wonder, but it could have just been a concussion or something

Wanderer2010 · 01-01-2021 8:19pm

I dont think we are meant to know. Imagine if, during life, we knew that there was an all-loving higher power who would return us to our eternal self where you could live forever in spirit or choose to reincarnate again to learn lessons essential to the evolution of your higher self? Nobody would have any motivation to do anything to better themselves at all, knowing we are going to live forever beyond our bodily life. As cruel as it seems, keeping that information from human beings is probably essential.
I respect though that not everyone believes in any form of afterlife, the above view is my personal one.

Gael23 · 01-01-2021 8:20pm

Either into a hole in the ground add you become plant food or into a furnace

Government buildings · 01-01-2021 8:25pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Either into a hole in the ground add you become plant food or into a furnace

You are correct .This is what happens the body. But you don't know about a spiritual existence after death.

Government buildings · 01-01-2021 8:31pm

No one can prove there is an afterlife.
No one can prove there isn't an afterlife.

billyhead · 01-01-2021 8:40pm

Government buildings wrote: »

No one can prove there is an afterlife.
No one can prove there isn't an afterlife.

True. Nobody has died and came back to prove anything.

saabsaab · 01-01-2021 8:46pm

billyhead wrote: »

True. Nobody has died and came back to prove anything.

If they had would they be believed? Told that they were not really dead I'd guess.

Covit · 01-01-2021 8:53pm

I have been banned from boards and reincarnated does that count !

Government buildings · 01-01-2021 9:01pm

No one can prove the existence of an afterlife. but I believe in it.

The thing is, the older you get, and realising you may only have a few years left if you're lucky, it's better for you to believe rather than not believe. You can't prove anything, so what's to be lost by believing?

By not believing,you lose everything, by believing you gain everything.

Remember there is no proof. So believing or not believing is a decision you make.

You can't prove either way. So if you are sensible, you choose to believe.

upupup · 01-01-2021 9:03pm

billyhead wrote: »

True. Nobody has died and came back to prove anything.

There was a guy that much was wrote about.He caused a lot of political and religious problems so he was killed and they made sure he was dead as they were experts in killing.His friends watched him die so there was no doubt he was dead.
He came back 3 days later and nobody knows how.He was seen on one occasion by a crowd of 500.
He disappeared again for good but it seems he came back from the dead not because of sins or anything silly like that....he came back to show what was possible and maybe he was a bit of a show off:)

Stacksofwacks · 01-01-2021 10:59pm

Government buildings wrote: »

No one can prove the existence of an afterlife. but I believe in it.

The thing is, the older you get, and realising you may only have a few years left if you're lucky, it's better for you to believe rather than not believe. You can't prove anything, so what's to be lost by believing?

By not believing,you lose everything, by believing you gain everything.

Remember there is no proof. So believing or not believing is a decision you make.

You can't prove either way. So if you are sensible, you choose to believe.

As a non believer who respects those who choose to believe I would take issue here because statements like these sound more like emotional blackmail. In reality you lose nothing if you choose to believe or not because no one can prove otherwise.

Government buildings · 01-01-2021 11:32pm

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

As a non believer who respects those who choose to believe I would take issue here because statements like these sound more like emotional blackmail. In reality you lose nothing if you choose to believe or not because no one can prove otherwise.

In reality you do lose, not because you can't prove either way, but because there is either an afterlife or there is not. There are no other possibilities.
The reason I say you lose, is because I believe that non believers do not deserve an afterlife. If you believe, there is life, if you don't, there isn't.
This isn't emotional blackmail. You decide to believe or not, it's a free choice. It's not something you can think about, because you won't get an answer.
I'm not trying to convert anyone, I fully respect your choice, for that is what it is, a choice.
Ultimately, the whole thing is a mystery that we cannot figure out. As I said, it's a decision you make. I make a decision to believe, not because I understand, but because I don't understand. It's a mystery.

AllForIt · 01-01-2021 11:36pm

My answer is the same as I gave in the Atheism forum version of this thread.

When I die I go back to the where I was before I was born. Or 9 months before being born if you want to be pedantic.

dok_golf · 01-01-2021 11:43pm

"And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime." Gerry O Driscoll

We came from nothing. We go back to nothing. Don't worry about what comes after, just be grateful , you got what you have

Wanderer2010 · 01-01-2021 11:47pm

Its the last mystery of life, the undiscovered country, the land from which no traveller has returned. I do believe we existed forever and this is just a school to evolve our soul before going home. The major religions have been edited so much over the centuries that its impossible to believe the propoganda, plus the concept of an Old Testamant God who hates human beings but yet continues to allow us to exist for millenia makes no sense.
The afterlife needs to remain a mystery. Nobody would learn, grow or do a thing in life if they knew they could just reset again after death.

AllForIt · 02-01-2021 12:01am

I have no problem with the concept of existing for a limited time period that has a beginning and an end because everything has a beginning and an end. There is absolutely nothing I'm aware of that last's forever. And by forever that would mean infinitely forever in the past and infinitely forever in the future.

I might wish I could live a bit longer because as I get older it has dawned on me life is actually quite short, whereas as a child life seemed like an eternity if lived beyond 70, but now I realise in the grand scheme of things human life is quite short.

So, if the nature of life is elements of life living for short periods, then I can hardly expect to get anything more everyone/everything else gets. 100 years may be double 50 years but both are still relatively short.

What would be the point of continually living forever anyway. You'd just be doing the same things over and over again and the longer you lived ,if you could make it artificially happen, everything would just become boring eventually. I think one can actually get sick of life.

If I had a preference for how one's existence could be better it would be that when you die you come back again - somewhere. Not necessarily as a human or even on earth. With no memory of your last life. Not to die and just live for eternity worshiping a God in the heavens. Boring.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 12:09am

Government buildings wrote: »

In reality you do lose, not because you can't prove either way, but because there is either an afterlife or there is not. There are no other possibilities.
The reason I say you lose, is because I believe that non believers do not deserve an afterlife. If you believe, there is life, if you don't, there isn't.
This isn't emotional blackmail. You decide to believe or not, it's a free choice. It's not something you can think about, because you won't get an answer.
I'm not trying to convert anyone, I fully respect your choice, for that is what it is, a choice.
Ultimately, the whole thing is a mystery that we cannot figure out. As I said, it's a decision you make. I make a decision to believe, not because I understand, but because I don't understand. It's a mystery.

So your saying even if the non believer was a model good person all their life but chose not to believe they don't 'deserve' an afterlife simply because they choose not believe? Look its up to people what they want to believe and if it helps them in their lives great but I don't think people should be made to feel guilty for doing either, that's how I look at it anyway

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:12am

Not to die and just worship a God in the heavens forever, boring. Very true.

But I think you are looking at it from a human point of view. No one has a clue what Heaven, or afterlife, is like. We cannot comprehend it, because it is a mystery.

All this business about lights at the end of a tunnel, meeting dead relatives etc is all rubbish. The final imaginings of a dying brain.

You die. Completely. It's called after life, because that is what it is. It comes after life, ie. after death.

Why not take a punt on it. Decide there is an afterlife. After all, what have you to lose?

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:14am

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

So your saying even if the non believer was a model good person all their life but chose not to believe they don't 'deserve' an afterlife simply because they choose not believe? Look its up to people what they want to believe and if it helps them in their lives great but I don't think people should be made to feel guilty for doing either, that's how I look at it anyway

Why should you feel guilty, if you don't believe?

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 12:20am

Government buildings wrote: »

Why should you feel guilty, if you don't believe?

Rather than address my point head on you have deflected onto something else. But that's ok, we'll agree to disagree and all of that

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:24am

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Rather than address my point head on you have deflected onto something else. But that's ok, we'll agree to disagree and all of that

Sorry, I didn't reply to what you said. Yes, my personal belief is that if you don't believe you don't see an afterlife.

I'm not trying to insult you by saying this, just as you are not insulting me by saying that an afterlife doesn't exist.

growleaves · 02-01-2021 12:30am

Many people don't want to believe they have an immortal soul because they think tedium, difficulty, nervous tension and other unendurable and undesirable states of being will be dragged out forever and therefore that they'd be trapped in inescapable suffering. They maybe see annihilation as an escape from existence.

Life is difficult enough as it is without a continuation of it, is the thinking. But that's because we're not living life properly - like a spiritual romantic dream.

In heaven you are engaged in purposeful creativity and you have relationships with other beings. So its something like you get to be with people you love and do the most meaningful work you can, with no anxiety, pain or loneliness. Like if you were Michelangelo working on the Sistine Chapel but with a loving husband or wife and loving parents, and never feeling bad or bored.

However I also think that for some people God will give them the option of being folded back into unconscious bliss. Nirvana.

Then I think people will also be given the choice of going to Hell and some people will take it. Why? Look around you, we're co-authoring an evil, spiteful world increasingly getting bitterer all the time and most people couldn't tell you why. Everything is becoming bickering or hiding in fear. We're married to weird hatred of this and that, while others seemingly hate us or people like us.

My advice is to choose goodness, beauty, openness to spirituality. If you meet God or Jesus Christ when you die, well they created the universe and they have love for you so why not go along with them or at least ask them for advice?

And before anyone writes back to say "Well you can't prove that, I'm an atheist and.." well then just treat it as a thought experiment. Imagine you died and were given the chance to live in a new realm of goodness, beauty, meaning and togetherness with people you love would you want that?

I realise this all sounds strange but life is spiritual, most people have blocked it out. We are here to learn lessons, we're passing through.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 12:30am

Government buildings wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't reply to what you said. Yes, my personal belief is that if you don't believe you don't see an afterlife.

I'm not trying to insult you by saying this, just as you are not insulting me by saying that an afterlife doesn't exist.

I'm fully aware of what the concept of an afterlife is, I grew up in a catholic environment and believed in an afterlife up until my mid twenties maybe, I started doing some research and the more I looked into it the more I came to believe it dosent exist... on the guilt thing maybe there is a bit of that given the environment I was raised in but I honestly don't think one should feel guilty about believing or not believing.

growleaves · 02-01-2021 12:34am

AllForIt wrote: »

My answer is the same as I gave in the Atheism forum version of this thread.

When I die I go back to the where I was before I was born. Or 9 months before being born if you want to be pedantic.

Some people believe that our souls existed before we were born on Earth, and in that pre-mortal life we lived with God.

So if you were going back to that it would mean you would be going to heaven.

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:35am

True. Guilt shouldn't come into it. It is your own genuine belief, either way.

You said you did some research about it. Was it the research that led you to not believe, or did you come to that realisation intuitively?

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 12:40am

Government buildings wrote: »

True. Guilt shouldn't come into it. It is your own genuine belief, either way.

You said you did some research about it. Was it the research that led you to not believe, or did you come to that realisation intuitively?

I read books and videos of people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris..if your interested in the subject check them out but I'm not in the business of de-converting people if your happy in that space

Thinkingalot · 02-01-2021 12:40am

Few months ago, I watched a really interesting video by Dr. Peter Fenwick, concerning this subject- what happens after death! I thought the video was pretty good. It's an hour long but might be interesting for those who are curious about these topics

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/78SkTuk8Zd4

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:41am

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

I read books and videos of people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris..if your interested in the subject check them out but I'm not in the business of de-converting people if your happy in that space

I know you read the books, but did they convince you? That's all I am asking.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 12:46am

Government buildings wrote: »

I know you read the books, but did they convince you? That's all I am asking.

They use logic and reason and that's all we have to go on, but can you say 100% categorically that god dosent exist of course not, its impossible to prove a negative

Car99 · 02-01-2021 12:48am

It's like getting an anesthetic you stop doing **** and that's it. The government is no longer interested in you. Life goes on for everybody else until it's their turn. Eventually the human plague on earth will die out and if there is anything left life and evolution will go on without human interference.

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 12:53am

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

They use logic and reason and that's all we have to go on, but can you say 100% categorically that god dosent exist of course not, its impossible to prove a negative

Just wondering why you quoted atheistic writers. Did you not read anything by believers?
Anyway, my point is reading and research is pointless. You, and only you decide to believe or not. You don't believe, fine. You do believe, fine.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 1:08am

Government buildings wrote: »

Just wondering why you quoted atheistic writers. Did you not read anything by believers?
Anyway, my point is reading and research is pointless. You, and only you decide to believe or not. You don't believe, fine. You do believe, fine.

If you can recommend any I will check them out, but only ones who use reason and facts and not a preacher...I think research is a healthy thing, to be informed, challenge your own beliefs etc

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 1:16am

But Stack, I don't think reading anyone, believer or not, is of any good. They can only give opinions, because ultimately it is a mystery.

You have to make up your own mind, because there are no facts to go on.

I hope I didn't insult you when I say that unbelievers don't deserve an afterlife. What I mean is there is no afterlife for them because they have rejected it. Your decision is fully respected. If you believe, it exists, if you don't, it doesn't.

After all, what a non believer is saying is that there is no afterlife. Fair enough.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 1:20am

Government buildings wrote: »

But Stack, I don't think reading anyone, believer or not, is of any good. They can only give opinions, because ultimately it is a mystery.

You have to make up your own mind, because there are no facts to go on.

I hope I didn't insult you when I say that unbelievers don't deserve an afterlife. What I mean is there is no afterlife for them because they have rejected it. Your decision is fully respected. If you believe, it exists, if you don't, it doesn't.

After all, what a non believer is saying is that there is no afterlife. Fair enough.

Fair enough, will wrap it up there so. Thanks for the discussion and happy new year. btw no I wasn't insulted

growleaves · 02-01-2021 1:24am

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

If you can recommend any I will check them out, but only ones who use reason and facts and not a preacher...I think research is a healthy thing, to be informed, challenge your own beliefs etc

If you don't mind, I'm going to give my own recommendation.

IMO the strongest Christian apologist is Blaise Pascal. Read the Pensées.

Though if you have unshakable prior belief that atheism is definitely true it probably won't convert you. Pascal is writing for a reader who is (potentially) very open to any metaphysical belief and sometimes he is giving advice for someone who wants to become a Christian but has difficulty believing in it.

R. Dawkins is not great. Most of his arguments were debated over in more detail by pagan and Christians scholars in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. He seems not to be familiar with the full history of debates around God of which he is writing about.

David Bentley Hart wrote a good book in response to Dawkins called Atheist Delusions. It is short and it just hits on various mistaken assumptions and corrects them.

Stacksofwacks · 02-01-2021 1:27am

growleaves wrote: »

If you don't mind, I'm going to give my own recommendation.

IMO the strongest Christian apologist is Blaise Pascal. Read the Pensées.

Though if you have unshakable prior belief that atheism is definitely true it probably won't convert you. Pascal is writing for a reader who is (potentially) very open to any metaphysical belief and sometimes he is giving advice for someone who wants to become a Christian but has difficulty believing in it.

R. Dawkins is not great. Most of his arguments were debatd over in more detail by pagan and Christians scholars in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. He seems not to be familiar with the full history of debates around God of which he is writing about.

David Bentley Hart wrote a good book in response to Dawkins called Atheist Delusions. It is short and it just hits on various mistaken assumptions and corrects them.

Thanks I will look into those, unlikely to change my position as you said but would be interesting to read..kudos

o1s1n · 02-01-2021 1:34am

Government buildings wrote: »

You have to make up your own mind, because there are no facts to go on.
.

There are facts to go on though, hence science. We understand the world around us, which allows us amazing things such as electricity, medicine and exploration into space.

Scientific reasoning is all we have which is based on facts.

Everything else is 'belief' and is not grounded in anything tangible.

Government buildings · 02-01-2021 1:41am

o1s1n wrote: »

There are facts to go on though, hence science. We understand the world around us, which allows us amazing things such as electricity, medicine and exploration into space.

Scientific reasoning is all we have which is based on facts.

Everything else is 'belief' and is not grounded in anything tangible.

What I mean is there no facts regarding an afterlife. It is all based on belief .

growleaves · 02-01-2021 1:50am

o1s1n wrote: »

There are facts to go on though, hence science. We understand the world around us, which allows us amazing things such as electricity, medicine and exploration into space.

Scientific reasoning is all we have which is based on facts.

Everything else is 'belief' and is not grounded in anything tangible.

I disagree.

Say we have an ordinary person who loves their mother. That love is non-material but it exists. It can't be measured physically, you can't land a space shuttle on it but it is an intrinsic part of the universe and the nature of existence. It is real.

So we have something that is definitely real and exists which is totally outside the purview of science (which is an examination of the material world only, by any definition). Then we have to decide how we reckon with that knowledge.

o1s1n · 02-01-2021 1:52am

Government buildings wrote: »

What I mean is there no facts regarding an afterlife. It is all based on belief .

There are facts about the afterlife though - the fact that there is none. There have been no facts to state otherwise.

If someone communicated with us from said afterlife then the facts would change. (You'd think by now of all the billions of people who lived before us, at least one of them might have said hello)

So yes you're just left with belief as you said really. Nice to hope there is something but I'll always just view it as wishful thinking/fear of eternal non existence.

o1s1n · 02-01-2021 1:56am

growleaves wrote: »

I disagree.

Say we have an ordinary person who loves their mother. That love is non-material but it exists. It can't be measured physically, you can't land a space shuttle on it but it is an intrinsic part of the universe and the nature of existence. It is real.

So we have something that is definitely real and exists which is totally outside the purview of science (which is an examination of the material world only, by any definition). Then we have to decide how we reckon with that knowledge.

Love and emotion are simply constructs of chemicals within our brain.

Remove certain parts of your brain and that love and emotion can change or vanish altogether.

The fact that you can do that proves is not an immaterial eternal entity which transcends the human body. It literally is the human body.

What happens when we die?

Comments