Liberals who aren't liberal

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-12-2018 7:26pm

Grayson wrote: »

I watched a couple of those video's. The guys a good rhetorical speaker. The problem is that his discussions are all based on ideas that are taken for granted without establishing them. He'll even jump from a->c without establishing what b is. It's pure sophistry but it's extremely well presented. I can see why a right winger would like him.

First three minutes, one blatantly flawed analagy: if you build a house without planning permission on someone else's land without planning permission, it WILL be demolished, just like the account.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-12-2018 7:30pm

Brian? wrote: »

No, they're not.

The purple haired so called SJWs are not the extreme left. They are a mad off shoot of the left. The extreme left support free speech as am absolute right.

Don't let the anti PC nonsense redefine what extreme left and right are. Extreme right are fascists, extreme left can be anarchists, libertarian socialists on old school Leninist.

For me, I'd still consider SJWs extreme-left. They can be anarchis, libertarian socialist and so on and still be SJWs.

I accept your overall point though.

Dyr · 23-12-2018 7:31pm

20Cent wrote: »

Only governments can censor.
If a private company doesn't want your content because it hurts their brand thats marketing and capitalism not censorship.

I always thought that in the dystopian cyperpunk future we're headed for it would be the liberals and left wingers who'd form the underground fighting against the technocratic elite. Imagine my surprise at who's defending the tech monopolies now

Feckin Orwell, right again.

20Cent · 23-12-2018 7:58pm

Bambi wrote: »

I always thought that in the dystopian cyperpunk future we're headed for it would be the liberals and left wingers who'd form the underground fighting against the technocratic elite. Imagine my surprise at who's defending the tech monopolies now

Feckin Orwell, right again.

And Libertarians demanding the government tell private companies what to do. More upside down than Orwell.

Monyleaux is a raving racist and white supremacist. No brand besides swastica flags limited would want to be associated with him.

Dyr · 23-12-2018 8:24pm

20Cent wrote: »

And Libertarians demanding the government tell private companies what to do. More upside down than Orwell.

Monyleaux is a raving racist and white supremacist. No brand besides swastica flags limited would want to be associated with him.

Libertarians mostly think that monopolies occur are a result of Government intervention, so why would they put forward Government intervention as a solution?

20Cent · 23-12-2018 9:29pm

Bambi wrote: »

Libertarians mostly think that monopolies occur are a result of Government intervention, so why would they put forward Government intervention as a solution?

Because they are idiots by definition.

Mad_maxx · 24-12-2018 12:13am

Brian? wrote: »

No, they're not.

The purple haired so called SJWs are not the extreme left. They are a mad off shoot of the left. The extreme left support free speech as am absolute right.

Don't let the anti PC nonsense redefine what extreme left and right are. Extreme right are fascists, extreme left can be anarchists, libertarian socialists on old school Leninist.

both extreme right and extreme left both have the same authoritarian motives and desires ,however the far left have far greater power than the far right could ever dream of , the far right have no influence in media or academia whatsoever where as the far left have as much as the centre right do in these spheres and a lot more in the case of academia .

Brian? · 24-12-2018 7:59am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

both extreme right and extreme left both have the same authoritarian motives and desires ,however the far left have far greater power than the far right could ever dream of , the far right have no influence in media or academia whatsoever where as the far left have as much as the centre right do in these spheres and a lot more in the case of academia .

Nonsense.

This is why left/right doesn’t work to describe political positions. There are extreme left who are authoritarian and extreme left who are anti authoritarian. But their end goal is always an egalitarian stateless society, it’s the road to it they disagree on.

The anti authoritarian extreme right are anarcho capitalist “libertarians”. The authoritarian extreme right are fascists. Both end states are abhorrent.

Authoritarianism is actually the thing I despise more than anything and I’m as left as you get.

Brian? · 24-12-2018 8:09am

Bambi wrote: »

I always thought that in the dystopian cyperpunk future we're headed for it would be the liberals and left wingers who'd form the underground fighting against the technocratic elite. Imagine my surprise at who's defending the tech monopolies now

Feckin Orwell, right again.

Why was he right?

Brian? · 24-12-2018 8:11am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

For me, I'd still consider SJWs extreme-left. They can be anarchis, libertarian socialist and so on and still be SJWs.

I accept your overall point though.

The whole left/right thing is less useful by the day. I suppose this is my real gripe. It’s the authoritarian axis that we’re actually discussing and not the left right axis.

up for anything · 24-12-2018 9:09am

nthclare wrote: »

Simple as, some Liberals love pushing their protest to the limit by dressing up seductivly to get their point across, but yet they're insulted when someone blow's a wolf whistle or something similar.

Like gay pride, men marching around in bondage gear in public just to get a point across, but yet if someone slagged one off or mentioned the F word people would get very offended...

Do word's speak louder than actions, or actions speak louder than words ?

Ah stop! Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that they're 'liberal'. I saw that for myself during the same-sex marriage referendum and during the referendum to remove the constitutional ban on abortion.

Mad_maxx · 24-12-2018 9:23am

Brian? wrote: »

Nonsense.

This is why left/right doesn’t work to describe political positions. There are extreme left who are authoritarian and extreme left who are anti authoritarian. But their end goal is always an egalitarian stateless society, it’s the road to it they disagree on.

The anti authoritarian extreme right are anarcho capitalist “libertarians”. The authoritarian extreme right are fascists. Both end states are abhorrent.

Authoritarianism is actually the thing I despise more than anything and I’m as left as you get.

The extreme left are also fascist.

JohnnyFlash · 24-12-2018 9:25am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The extreme left are also fascist.

Horseshoe theory. Two cheeks of the same horrible arse. Ideologies loved by angry men who think they have all the answers to everything. Mostly found online these days.

Mr. CooL ICE · 24-12-2018 9:36am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Horseshoe theory. Two cheeks of the same horrible arse. Ideologies loved by angry men who think they have all the answers to everything. Mostly found online these days.

Bet they work in IT and all

Peter Denham · 24-12-2018 10:07am

Brian? wrote: »

Nonsense.

This is why left/right doesn’t work to describe political positions. There are extreme left who are authoritarian and extreme left who are anti authoritarian. But their end goal is always an egalitarian stateless society, it’s the road to it they disagree on.

The anti authoritarian extreme right are anarcho capitalist “libertarians”. The authoritarian extreme right are fascists. Both end states are abhorrent.

Authoritarianism is actually the thing I despise more than anything and I’m as left as you get.

I think it's very debatable that the extreme authoritarian left truly has an end goal of an equal society.

Brian? · 24-12-2018 10:08am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The extreme left are also fascist.

You can call them anything you want, but it doesn't make you right. Fascism is a clearly defined ideology, you can't simply use it as an insult to denigrate people you disagree with.

Brian? · 24-12-2018 10:11am

Peter Denham wrote: »

I think it's very debatable that the extreme authoritarian left truly has an end goal of an equal society.

I'd be happy to have that debate. It's their stated aim, but I'd agree that there are many on the extreme left who don't adhere to the principles of an equal society.

But again, that's not a left v right debate. That's a debate about authoritarianism. Which is prevalent on both sides of left/right

Brian? · 24-12-2018 10:18am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Horseshoe theory. Two cheeks of the same horrible arse. Ideologies loved by angry men who think they have all the answers to everything. Mostly found online these days.

Horseshoe theory is a steaming pile of horseshyte.

It's such a black and white view of political theory. There are shades of grey on all sides

I jumped in here to point out that everyone on the extreme left isn't authoritarian. I would just as easily point out that everyone on the extreme right isn't authoritarian, anarcho capitalists for example.

According to horseshoe theory a fascist, a libertarian socialist, an anarcho capitalist libertarian and a Stalinist are all the same. Which is patently ridiculous.

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-12-2018 10:19am

Mutant z wrote: »

There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook.

There seems, to me at least, to be many people that think ANY level of vocal disagreement constitutes "intolerance". Or that if you publicly disagree with someone or rebut their position you are being "completely intolerant".

So I wonder if this is a "liberal" issue at all that you have raised or is it just that our bar for measuring "intolerance" has become remarkably low over the years?

That said though....

Mutant z wrote: »

Why are so many self proclaimed liberals

...... I have to say I have yet to meet a SINGLE "self proclaimed liberal" outside of online forums and most of those in specifically american online forums. This bi-partisan speech seems to be seeping more and more into our discourse here and to be honest I see real utility for it.

The stuff going on in the US with "safe spaces" and Twitter Mobs doing the online equivalent of pitchforks and torches to every utterance is something I personally neither require, nor can explain. It seems to me just to be the natural progression of a kind of extreme version of "Virtue signalling" where people are so keen to virtue signal online, that they are literally trawling every online utterance they can find against which to display their offence. And the examples of it are getting steadily more ridiculous and desperate these days.

Even the people I would have classified as american "liberals" like Podcaster and writer Sam Harris, think "the left" have simply lost the plot entirely and need to be fixed. While still staying firmly IN that camp, he strikes it from within for the terrible failings that you yourself also identify here.

I myself do not identify with any of those terms. I have positions on the world and society that are positions in and of themselves, self contained with the arguments, evidence, data and reasoning that support them. Some of those positions people have told me are "Liberal". Some of them the exact opposite. I simply do not care. They stand for themselves with or without the labels.

So maybe the problem is not with "liberals" or "democrats" or "conservatives" or "republicans" or any of that. Maybe the problem is, at least in part, those ridiculous divisions and labels in the first place. Who knows.

Captain Obvious · 24-12-2018 12:48pm

Mutant z wrote: »

There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook. They are liberal as long as you agree with them but if anyone so much as strays from their own group think they are attacked, slandered and censored. Why are so many self proclaimed liberals in favour of tighter censorship laws and clamping down on freedom of speech, which is an essence of a true liberal society. Surely being liberal means supporting free speech whether you agree with it or not. The fact is liberalism is about supporting free speech and expression and opposing censorship which is the exact opposite to what so many who claim to be on the liberal spectrum have proposed. It seems liberalism has been hijacked by SJWs and college students, in favour of identity politics which is anything but liberal. Its time real liberals stood up and defended the true liberal values of freedom of speech and democracy.

Seems like you have your own idea of what a liberal should be and are criticising liberals for not living up to what you think a liberal is.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 24-12-2018 12:56pm

the Brexit debate is typical.
most Remainers like to consider themselves liberals, and Brexiteers are seen as right-wing types.

personally i couldn't give a fig about Brexit. However if you have the temerity to express a pro-Brexit opinion on The Politics forum, you'll be met with a very NON-liberal reaction. They'll shut down any debate they perceive as non-PC. They do not want debate. They just want to listen to views similar to their own.
There is no debate there, just people repeating and amplifying the same arguments.

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

20Cent · 24-12-2018 1:18pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

the Brexit debate is typical.
most Remainers like to consider themselves liberals, and Brexiteers are seen as right-wing types.

personally i couldn't give a fig about Brexit. However if you have the temerity to express a pro-Brexit opinion on The Politics forum, you'll be met with a very NON-liberal reaction. They'll shut down any debate they perceive as non-PC. They do not want debate. They just want to listen to views similar to their own.
There is no debate there, just people repeating and amplifying the same arguments.

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

How do they do that if they are not mods?
By shut down debate do you mean replying and challenging views?

RWCNT · 24-12-2018 1:46pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Enjoy.

sk8erboii · 24-12-2018 1:47pm

20Cent wrote: »

How do they do that if they are not mods?
By shut down debate do you mean replying and challenging views?

LOL
Reverse snowflake syndrome

‘WTF you dont agree with my opinion? You’re literally nazis!!!!’

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-12-2018 1:49pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

the Brexit debate is typical.
most Remainers like to consider themselves liberals, and Brexiteers are seen as right-wing types.

personally i couldn't give a fig about Brexit. However if you have the temerity to express a pro-Brexit opinion on The Politics forum, you'll be met with a very NON-liberal reaction. They'll shut down any debate they perceive as non-PC. They do not want debate. They just want to listen to views similar to their own.
There is no debate there, just people repeating and amplifying the same arguments.

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

That's because pro-Brexiteers are capable of making an argument and backing it up. If their information is wrong or flawed, then that should be easy to prove. Problem is there's a tendency for people challenging the argument to just yell "fake news" and when asked to provide their own sources scream that they're being "shut down", or just tell people to google it.

24-12-2018 1:55pm

There hasn't been a Brexiter who could make decent arguments in that thread in donkeys.

batgoat · 24-12-2018 1:56pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

the Brexit debate is typical.
most Remainers like to consider themselves liberals, and Brexiteers are seen as right-wing types.

personally i couldn't give a fig about Brexit. However if you have the temerity to express a pro-Brexit opinion on The Politics forum, you'll be met with a very NON-liberal reaction. They'll shut down any debate they perceive as non-PC. They do not want debate. They just want to listen to views similar to their own.
There is no debate there, just people repeating and amplifying the same arguments.

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

From everything I've seen in the politics forum, it gets highlighted when you're factually incorrect or not backing your points up. That strikes me as reasonable.

ArchXStanton · 24-12-2018 2:19pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

the Brexit debate is typical.
most Remainers like to consider themselves liberals, and Brexiteers are seen as right-wing types.

personally i couldn't give a fig about Brexit. However if you have the temerity to express a pro-Brexit opinion on The Politics forum, you'll be met with a very NON-liberal reaction. They'll shut down any debate they perceive as non-PC. They do not want debate. They just want to listen to views similar to their own.
There is no debate there, just people repeating and amplifying the same arguments.

They can tolerate anything, except intolerance it seems.

Criticism of the EU is a big no no on boards... Sure look at the roads they gave us for Christ's sakes

Wheres Me Jumper? · 24-12-2018 2:45pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Criticism of the EU is a big no no on boards... Sure look at the roads they gave us for Christ's sakes

i would extend that to 99% of the media in this country. There is no balance.

Brian? · 24-12-2018 2:56pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i would extend that to 99% of the media in this country. There is no balance.

Why don’t you provide some balance so?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 24-12-2018 3:06pm

Brian? wrote: »

Why don’t you provide some balance so?

tbh i dont even want to get into a Brexit discussion. i'm totally bored by it as i think a whole lot of folk are after 2 years of it.

suffice to say it reminds me of the millennium bug. remember planes were supposed to fall from the sky. the internet was expected to shut down. intercontinental ballistic missiles were feared to be triggered. the world was meant to come to an end. and guess what? Nuthin.

but dont say that to the liberals ............:eek:

Brian? · 24-12-2018 3:27pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

tbh i dont even want to get into a Brexit discussion. i'm totally bored by it as i think a whole lot of folk are after 2 years of it.

suffice to say it reminds me of the millennium bug. remember planes were supposed to fall from the sky. the internet was expected to shut down. intercontinental ballistic missiles were feared to be triggered. the world was meant to come to an end. and guess what? Nuthin.

but dont say that to the liberals ............:eek:

I worked on a project mitigating the risk posed by the millennium bug. The reason planes didn't fall from the sky was and so on was that thousands of people like me assessed the risks and mitigated them. If we had done nothing then it would have been a whole different story.

So yeah "nuthin" happened. You're welcome.

To be fair no one who knew anything about it feared planes falling from the sky etc. What would have happened was a mass server crashes, probably bringing down large parts of the internet. Banks would have stopped and so on. We made sure that didn't happen. Through planning.

People are doing the same for Brexit

Billy86 · 24-12-2018 3:38pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i would extend that to 99% of the media in this country. There is no balance.

Didn't Ireland poll at something like 90% remain recently? This is like the yanks shouting about being shut down re climate change and 'proper representation/balance'.

To achieve that they would not only need an Irexit or pro Brexit representative; they would also need to have 8 more anti Irexit/Brexit types as well. A bit like how with climate change in the US they would need about 49 pro climate change scientists and 1 climate change denier, in order to give proper representation of the scientific community.

Would this be a preferable setup to you?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 24-12-2018 3:38pm

Brian? wrote: »

I worked on a project mitigating the risk posed by the millennium bug. The reason planes didn't fall from the sky was and so on was that thousands of people like me assessed the risks and mitigated them. If we had done nothing then it would have been a whole different story.

So yeah "nuthin" happened. You're welcome.

To be fair no one who knew anything about it feared planes falling from the sky etc. What would have happened was a mass server crashes, probably bringing down large parts of the internet. Banks would have stopped and so on. We made sure that didn't happen. Through planning.

People are doing the same for Brexit

A lot of fear was stoked then, as it is now.
Fear sells. You only have to observe the debacle over the "drone attacks".

i'm not saying Brexit will not present problems and challenges. It will. But they are being over-hyped by remainers 'cos it suits their agenda.

Liberals do not like when you point this out. It's blasphemy on the Politics forum.

Captain Obvious · 24-12-2018 3:47pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

A lot of fear was stoked then, as it is now.
Fear sells. You only have to observe the debacle over the "drone attacks".

i'm not saying Brexit will not present problems and challenges. It will. But they are being over-hyped by remainers 'cos it suits their agenda.

Liberals do not like when you point this out. It's blasphemy on the Politics forum.

Pretty much everything in the so-called "Project Fear" has come to pass already and most of the claims made by pro Brexit campaigners have been thoroughly debunked as factually incorrect. So what exactly was over-hyped?

batgoat · 24-12-2018 3:48pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

A lot of fear was stoked then, as it is now.
Fear sells. You only have to observe the debacle over the "drone attacks".

i'm not saying Brexit will not present problems and challenges. It will. But they are being over-hyped by remainers 'cos it suits their agenda.

Liberals do not like when you point this out. It's blasphemy on the Politics forum.

Not really, they're 3 months off exiting and still appear to be entirely disorganised to the point where nobody knows what form it will take. Y2k was being prepared for years in advance hence the transition being smooth. Completely unknown for brexit at this point.

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-12-2018 3:51pm

They won't be let go without problems if it went too smoothly it might give other outposts of the empire ideas

Wheres Me Jumper? · 24-12-2018 3:58pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They won't be let go without problems if it went too smoothly it might give other outposts of the empire ideas

i agree, Juncker and his fellow eurocrats are very fearful other states might get itchy feet.
they are simply using the Irish Backstop to put the brakes on Brexit. they dont give a fiddlers about us. we discovered that when the banks went belly-up. or have we forgotten already?

batgoat · 24-12-2018 4:00pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i agree, Juncker and his fellow eurocrats are very fearful other states might get itchy feet.
they are simply using the Irish Backstop to put the brakes on Brexit. they dont give a fiddlers about us. we discovered that when the banks went belly-up. or have we forgotten already?

Not having a backstop would be disastrous for the entire island tbh... A hard border would never go down well and it would be a necessity.

WinnyThePoo · 24-12-2018 4:01pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They won't be let go without problems if it went too smoothly it might give other outposts of the empire ideas

i agree, Juncker and his fellow eurocrats are very fearful other states might get itchy feet.
they are simply using the Irish Backstop to put the brakes on Brexit. they dont give a fiddlers about us. we discovered that when the banks went belly-up. or have we forgotten already?

Do you understand what the backstop is?.

nthclare · 24-12-2018 4:18pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Criticism of the EU is a big no no on boards... Sure look at the roads they gave us for Christ's sakes

Road's lol road's...

From our own quarries, now they have a machine that recycles tarmac, it basically churns up the road adds a sticky agent and more chippings, and it lays out the road again.

Another example of the emperor's new clothes.

The EU never gave us roads, that's absolute bollox.

Selling sand to the Arabs comes to mind.

Get on yer bike, gerrourra the garden....

WinnyThePoo · 24-12-2018 4:22pm

nthclare wrote: »

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Criticism of the EU is a big no no on boards... Sure look at the roads they gave us for Christ's sakes

Road's lol road's...

From our own quarries, now they have a machine that recycled tarmac, add a bit of asphalt, gravel and we've road's.

Another example of the emperor's new clothes.

The EU never gave us roads, that's absolute bollox.

Selling sand to the Arabs comes to mind.

Get on yer bike, gerrourra the garden....

Wow. Do you understand for roads to built it costs money.

nthclare · 24-12-2018 4:23pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Wow. Do you understand for roads to built it costs money.

Ah now Winny, Tigger with a mallet up his arse knows we're being hoodwinked

Billy86 · 24-12-2018 4:27pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Wow. Do you understand for roads to built it costs money.

Sure wouldn't a good yard brush do just as good a job on paving them motorway as those big fancy, unnecessary "machines" we got scammed into using?

PopePalpatine · 24-12-2018 4:29pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Sure wouldn't a good yard brush do just as good a job on paving them motorway as those big fancy, unnecessary "machines" we got scammed into using?

Not any more, sure hasn't (((that Hungarian Jew))) ruined our diets with soy, and churned out a generation of beta numales?

nthclare · 24-12-2018 4:30pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Sure wouldn't a good yard brush do just as good a job on paving them motorway as those big fancy, unnecessary "machines" we got scammed into using?

Geddup the yard will ya

nthclare · 24-12-2018 4:33pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Not any more, sure hasn't (((that Hungarian Jew))) ruined our diets with soy, and churned out a generation of beta numales?

Numales it's a good one, I must use that myself

rossie1977 · 24-12-2018 4:35pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

A lot of fear was stoked then, as it is now.
Fear sells. You only have to observe the debacle over the "drone attacks".

i'm not saying Brexit will not present problems and challenges. It will. But they are being over-hyped by remainers 'cos it suits their agenda.

Liberals do not like when you point this out. It's blasphemy on the Politics forum.

Dominic Cummings used a tactic of fear and lies to convince a large percentage of the UK population that the EU was a giant boogeyman so you might need to flip your comparison.

Billy86 · 24-12-2018 4:35pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Not any more, sure hasn't (((that Hungarian Jew))) ruined our diets with soy, and churned out a generation of beta numales?

You remembered to PM him to congratulate him on being named FT person of the year, right? https://amp.ft.com/content/2bd12012-01e4-11e9-9d01-cd4d49afbbe3

There's been enough frothing at the mouth over this that we've barely heard any ructions about it being for person of the year and not man of the year. So remember to thank Big Boss and put in for your Christm-- Holiday bonus.

20Cent · 24-12-2018 5:34pm

The only reason Soros is blamed for everything is because it's an easy name for right wingers to spell.

Liberals who aren't liberal

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