Why does Ireland lack a culinary heritage?

Nikki Sixx · 04-04-2019 5:29pm

Presume Irish peasants only ate potatoes for hundreds of years. Food was functional.

odyssey06 · 04-04-2019 5:32pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

Presume Irish peasants only ate potatoes for hundreds of years. Food was functional.

Hence our rare appreciation for the different qualities of different potatoes \ seasonality.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-04-2019 5:33pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

Presume Irish peasants only ate potatoes for hundreds of years. Food was functional.

But that wasn't by choice, it was necessity. Potatoes grow easily and plentifully in bad soil, so they were able to sustain a family even on tiny plots of land. The arrival of the potato (brought by Raleigh, a planter) facilitated the dominance of the emergent landlord class. The system of subdivision and tenancy that sustained them was only feasible because of the potato. There seems to be a belief at large that Irish people ate nothing but potatoes out of a lack of imagination or something.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-04-2019 5:35pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Hence our rare appreciation for the different qualities of different potatoes \ seasonality.

Yeah, and in America I can't get decent spuds at all, they're sh1te. A big bowl of good new spuds, bursting their sides in a big steaming pile waiting to be covered in good high quality butter, surrounded by your family, is a thing of great beauty that we sometimes don't appreciate.

mariaalice · 04-04-2019 5:36pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The landlord/tenant relationship, the forced end of commons herding, and the rapid subdivision of land in the 1700s and 1800s is to blame. Across the country, and especially in the Congested Districts, keeping families viable on smaller and smaller pieces of land, whose soil was overworked, led to a reduction in the diversity of vegetables and the availability of meat: everyone was reliant on the (relatively recently imported) potato, and we know the results that followed.

Slightly undercooked potatoes (which take longer to digest and therefore keep you full) and hopefully some milk, will between them provide a pretty well balanced, but completely bland and boring diet. As a survival technique, it worked until it didn't work anymore, but definitely contributed to the decline of a peasant culinary tradition.

But it's a chance for people to whine about another of our failings as a nation, so I'm sure there'll be plenty of people on to tell us how terrible we all are in comparison to our much more sophisticated continental cousins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rundale I can remember learning and writing an essay on this in primary school.

Force Carrier · 04-04-2019 5:51pm

Significant influence came from the Penal Laws which dictated that a catholic land owner when he died had to divide his land equally among all his sons. In a hand full of generations this could take one reasonable plot of ground and divide it into hundreds of tiny parcels, a couple of acres or less.

Electric Sheep · 04-04-2019 6:46pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah, and in America I can't get decent spuds at all, they're sh1te. A big bowl of good new spuds, bursting their sides in a big steaming pile waiting to be covered in good high quality butter, surrounded by your family, is a thing of great beauty that we sometimes don't appreciate.

You're shopping in the wrong places.

MeTheMan · 04-04-2019 6:52pm

I'd eat boxty weekly here. Can't beat it.

mvl · 04-04-2019 6:58pm

I wouldn't think Ireland lacks culinary heritage. I'd see more of an issue when there is lack of interest for home cooking - this gets passed on to generations, so family recipes get forgotten about.

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I know a Dutch woman who lives in Ireland and she makes nettle soup. I've never tried it myself and she's the only person I know who makes it.

actually nettle soup can be popular in other countries in Europe.

Ipso · 04-04-2019 7:05pm

MeTheMan wrote: »

I'd eat boxty weekly here. Can't beat it.

Look at the fancy Dan.

Ipso · 04-04-2019 7:06pm

mvl wrote: »

I wouldn't think Ireland lacks culinary heritage. I'd see more of an issue when there is lack of interest for home cooking - this gets passed on to generations, so family recipes get forgotten about.

actually nettle soup can be popular in other countries in Europe.

I remember trying boiled nettle juice when I was young as it was supposed to be a cure for hives.

Muahahaha · 04-04-2019 7:11pm

Wonder why pasta was never a feature in Irish cooking, its just eggs and flour which would have been available to all.

I'd guess lack of refrigeration played a big part, without the ability to preserve food for days it limits what you're likely to cook

Hobosan · 04-04-2019 8:20pm

We were too pre-occupied.

Also, if Irish people start using the word 'cuisine' in everyday conversation then I'm out. It should be banned from this country!

Say my name · 04-04-2019 8:51pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not actually true. When foreigners visited Ireland in the 19C, famine times aside, they were generally surprised at how well nourished the peasantry looked. The potato is almost the complete meal, and combined with some oatmeal and dairy it's a wholesome if somewhat boring diet.

I often think that the potatoes growing then must have tasted different to our potatoes now.
For one the difference in potato varieties and two in the coastal regions the fertilizer available was seaweed. So the potato no doubt took in a bit of saltiness as well as the 60 plus nutrients from the seaweed treated soil.

Realt Dearg Sec · 05-04-2019 3:52pm

Electric Sheep wrote: »

You're shopping in the wrong places.

Yeah, Texas. I can't get to the trailer down the road from my Mam's house with the Wexford strawberries sign though.

jimgoose · 05-04-2019 3:55pm

Say my name wrote: »

I often think that the potatoes growing then must have tasted different to our potatoes now.
For one the difference in potato varieties and two in the coastal regions the fertilizer available was seaweed. So the potato no doubt took in a bit of saltiness as well as the 60 plus nutrients from the seaweed treated soil.

Well, you need only compare, say, the Maris Piper, the Rooster and the legendary Ballycotton Beauty. That last has a sandy, seaweedy undertone that has to be tasted to be believed.

suicide_circus · 05-04-2019 3:56pm

the lack of seafood is the real head scratcher.

lion_bar · 05-04-2019 3:59pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Chicken fillet roll. No other country can beat that.

Ha ha. Living in London a (good) few years ago, a couple of English colleagues went to Dublin for a meeting. Came back raving about spar and chicken fillet rolls.

jimgoose · 05-04-2019 4:00pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the lack of seafood is the real head scratcher.

Not in Cork, it isn't biy!

odyssey06 · 05-04-2019 4:15pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the lack of seafood is the real head scratcher.

In Dublin at least local seafood was avoided for about 200 years due to pollution levels in Dublin Bay... previously the bay was famous for its oysters (and of course, cockles and mussels). And now the price is a factor, except for farmed seafood produce.

Ipso · 05-04-2019 4:28pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the lack of seafood is the real head scratcher.

Depends where you are, may also have been taboos about freshmess further inland and much of it could have been an income source.

James Brown · 05-04-2019 4:32pm

jetsonx wrote: »

Why does Ireland lack a culinary heritage?

I mean we probably have some of the finest ingredients in the world but when visitors here and ask "what's that national dish?", is "bacon and cabbage" really the answer? Thinking harder about it, you might be able to come up with something like "boxty". But ironically both of these dishes are rarely even eaten in modern Ireland.

We cannot use poverty as an excuse because anyone who has traveled to poorer regions of the world knows that some of their foods are amazingly diverse not to mention tasty. We cannot use industrialisation as an excuse because Ireland was never really an industrial nation.

So can anyone shed some light on why Ireland has no culinary heritage?

It does have one. Most of us grew up on boiled everything but we have Irish dishes none the less. As you say good ingredients too like Salmon, lamb, stews, breads, hams, cheeses, scallops etc.

https://www.vogue.com/article/ireland-restaurant-irish-cuisine

https://www.tasteofhome.com/collection/traditional-irish-food/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_dishes

Graces7 · 05-04-2019 4:44pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But that wasn't by choice, it was necessity. Potatoes grow easily and plentifully in bad soil, so they were able to sustain a family even on tiny plots of land. The arrival of the potato (brought by Raleigh, a planter) facilitated the dominance of the emergent landlord class. The system of subdivision and tenancy that sustained them was only feasible because of the potato. There seems to be a belief at large that Irish people ate nothing but potatoes out of a lack of imagination or something.

hence the scale of the blight disaster. instant cutting off of all food

Graces7 · 05-04-2019 4:46pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah, and in America I can't get decent spuds at all, they're sh1te. A big bowl of good new spuds, bursting their sides in a big steaming pile waiting to be covered in good high quality butter, surrounded by your family, is a thing of great beauty that we sometimes don't appreciate.

My first growing season in Ireland I would walk round with a huge boiled potato in one hand, the butter dish in the other... sheer bliss

Graces7 · 05-04-2019 4:49pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the lack of seafood is the real head scratcher.

Out here they pick winkles etc... seaweed eaten too..

Graces7 · 05-04-2019 4:51pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wonder why pasta was never a feature in Irish cooking, its just eggs and flour which would have been available to all.

I'd guess lack of refrigeration played a big part, without the ability to preserve food for days it limits what you're likely to cook

Flour was a luxury item for centuries and eggs too often.

Markcheese · 05-04-2019 5:02pm

Honestly, I do think it was poverty... The levels of absolute poverty that existed in Ireland up to even the 1950s,
The levels of famine in the 17th and 18th century, followed by population explosion (and absolute poverty) pre the great famine didn't leave much room for a rich food culture, and those that did have wealth were either English, or aping the English dishes... (if, culturally, you don't know how to grow or prepare certain types of foods theyre not much use to you really, you won't last long bravely trying out random mushrooms and berries,)

odyssey06 · 06-04-2019 6:10pm

Just had irish stew with leftover corned beef instead of lamb. Lovely disintegrating morsels. Should be a thing!

maninasia · 07-04-2019 6:37am

Gmaximum wrote: »

When you look other national dishes they’re mostly peasant food of old. Cassoulet in France springs to mind. Our corned beef and stew fit the bill her.

We absolutely have a heritage which is focused on small regional producers of fantastic cheese, meats, fish etc. The menu in most restaurants will now tell you where the produce came from.

Not what's he's talking about though.

maninasia · 07-04-2019 6:38am

Markcheese wrote: »

Honestly, I do think it was poverty... The levels of absolute poverty that existed in Ireland up to even the 1950s,
The levels of famine in the 17th and 18th century, followed by population explosion (and absolute poverty) pre the great famine didn't leave much room for a rich food culture, and those that did have wealth were either English, or aping the English dishes... (if, culturally, you don't know how to grow or prepare certain types of foods theyre not much use to you really, you won't last long bravely trying out random mushrooms and berries,)

Ireland had extreme poverty through.the 18th and 19th .century

Look into your history. Many people basically just ate potatoes.
Also they were tenant farmers if Lucky. Many were just intinerant workers . They were not allowed fish in rivers. Poaching was a serious offense. British both local and foreign , took most of our good food even during the famine years. Good riddance to them.

maninasia · 07-04-2019 6:47am

Graces7 wrote: »

hence the scale of the blight disaster. instant cutting off of all food

British exported large quantities of food out of Ireland during the famine years. They called it the free market at that time. Trevalyn called it a gift from God to cut down Irish population. I don't see what God had to do with it.

maninasia · 07-04-2019 6:51am

Ipso wrote: »

Depends where you are, may also have been taboos about freshmess further inland and much of it could have been an income source.

Irish peasants weren't allowed fish in the rivers and lakes, they were all controlled by local big estates.

Only the coast was available but then again that required specialised skills , some capital and was obviousky a dangerous endeavour.

maninasia · 07-04-2019 6:57am

mariaalice wrote: »

We do it's just not vast things like soda bread which is universality recognised as Irish, black pudding, Guinness, whiskey and cider, butter.

What I do not understand is why we didn't have a cheese heritage apparently cheese was made in monasteries here but when they closed it fell away as a craft or why hazelnuts or wild garlic don't feature more in our cooking or why the bits of Tipperary/Waterford that have a cider heritage haven't exploited it as a tourist asset.

My theory is that despite the poverty accesses to meat in the form of a pig and the accesses to potatoes and eventually dairy products for everyone meant there was no incentive to be inventive like the way Italians use turnips tops as a food. Cooking methods such as an open fire which were common until recent limited what could be cooked.

Yea they were destroyed back in the Reformation days. Their lands were then taken over by planters and became the local big estates in many cases.

Why does Ireland lack a culinary heritage?

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