If you are driving for work, you’re at work ?

Snoggums · 20-11-2017 11:16pm #1

The Road Safety Authority, An Garda Síochána and the Health and Safety Authority have launched a new TV-led campaign that highlights the dangers involved in driving for work to both employers and employees which you may have seen over the last few weeks.

The core message is simple, if you are driving for work, you’re at work !

But really, is this the case?

If so, than why doesn't a lot of jobs pay in this manner in terms of hours per week.

Does anyone know what is the true standing on this situation or is it a zero hour issue?

20-11-2017 11:32pm

This definitely opens a can of worms, regarding the working time directive and the like.

godtabh · 20-11-2017 11:36pm

Karsini wrote: »

This definitely opens a can of worms, regarding the working time directive and the like.

My work have a policy on it. Covers things like the above. Also has a policy if the trip is 3 hours or more it’s a two person trip.

They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. A crash (non serious) in a company car a couple of years ago spurred them on.

OldMrBrennan83 · 20-11-2017 11:38pm

This post has been deleted.

Dial Hard · 20-11-2017 11:38pm

Snoggums wrote:

If so, than why doesn't a lot of jobs pay in this manner in terms of hours per week.

Driving to/from work and driving for work are two very different things, that's why.

Alkers · 21-11-2017 12:20am

Commuting to a standard workplace is not part of your job but if the location of your work changes, driving to the different locations considered part of your hours. There was an EU ruling on it recently

GM228 · 21-11-2017 4:17pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

Commuting to a standard workplace is not part of your job but if the location of your work changes, driving to the different locations considered part of your hours. There was an EU ruling on it recently

Correct, the Tyco case, the ECJ ruled that time spent travelling each day between workers homes and the premises of the first and last customers constitutes working time, but only where workers do not have a fixed or habitual place of work.

gctest50 · 21-11-2017 4:27pm

An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.

GingerLily · 21-11-2017 4:30pm

gctest50 wrote: »

An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.

As in driving to your office in the morning? That can't be right

Peatys · 21-11-2017 4:33pm

Patww79 wrote: »

Are they implying commuting is part of your work?

No, if you drive to work, that's commuting. If you drive wholly (driver) or as part or if your job (rep/service), you're at work while driving.

GM228 · 21-11-2017 4:47pm

gctest50 wrote: »

An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.

Well, yes and no.

No as in it isn't actually an accident at work meaning you are not required to fill out accident report forms etc.

And yes it is deemed to be for the purposes of payment of injury benefit.

This statutory provision would have no bearing on motor insurance or employer liability for example.

Chris_5339762 · 21-11-2017 8:06pm

We often have to travel between workplaces. Employer refuses to pay the expenses which have been agreed at a national level.

patrickbrophy18 · 22-11-2017 1:09am

If your on shift work or a 40 hour work week, any journey outside of that doesn't count. On the other hand, if you make a living by driving (e.g. taxi, delivery, freight etc.) that driving is part of your work. Simples!

OldMrBrennan83 · 22-11-2017 8:54am

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EPAndlee · 22-11-2017 8:58am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I do a fair bit of driving for work and I'd never use my own car

OldMrBrennan83 · 22-11-2017 9:00am

This post has been deleted.

georgewickstaff · 22-11-2017 9:12am

So is this correct?

I have a habitual place of work.

Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?

Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?

I have not seen the advert yet but I presume it's is to warn drivers to insure themselves correctly?

seamus · 22-11-2017 9:34am

Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?

Yes.

Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?

No. Driving from home to *a* place of work is considered private travel. Yes, but only if that data centre couldn't be considered a "normal place of work". If you were to spend a lot of your days at the data centre, then that could be considered your "place of work" and thus the travel from home is a commute. Thanks to the guys below for the correction.

I have not seen the advert yet but I presume it's is to warn drivers to insure themselves correctly?

No, it's a road safety campaign. Effectively for employers to have a think about what they're doing and why they're doing it, when they send an employee out on the road. The employer has a responsibility to ensure the safety of their employees while working, including those who have been sent out on the road.

That is,
- Are they under time pressure?
- Are they in the right frame of mind?
- Are they sober?
- Is their vehicle roadworthy?
- Are they qualified to drive?

etc etc.

witchgirl26 · 22-11-2017 9:57am

seamus wrote: »

No. Driving from home to *a* place of work is considered private travel.
It's irritating, but that's the revenue rules on claiming expenses. In order to claim it as "work" travel, strictly speaking you should drive to work first, then drive to the data centre.

The only exception to this is people whose ordinary place of work is at home.

Actually that's not necessarily true. I have to travel to Belfast sometimes for work but that is not my normal place of work. I am driving "for" work when I drive up there first thing in the morning and back as it is not my normal, contractual place of work and work have required me to be there. I am allowed to claim revenue mileage rates on this trip.

markpb · 22-11-2017 11:06am

Here's Revenue's take on it

Business travel is when your employee travels from one place of work to another place of work as part of their duties. This includes:
* travel between Ireland and other countries
* travel to a place that is not their normal place of work.

For business travel, the distance in kilometres is calculated by the lower of either:
* the distance between your employee's home and the temporary place of work
* the distance between your employee's normal place of work and the temporary place of work.
Travel to and from work is your employee's own private travel. It is not a business journey.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/employee-expenses/travel-and-subsistence/business-journeys.aspx

The EU ruling was not related to tax though, it dealt with your working hours. My understanding is that if you drive for a living, your working hours start when you leave home to drive to your first meeting, client, etc and continue until you drive home that night.

GM228 · 22-11-2017 1:13pm

georgewickstaff wrote: »

Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?

Yes, because it is during your working day.

georgewickstaff wrote: »

Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?

No, this is a bit different as you are going there before you start work, it is not a customer of your employer and you already have a habitual place of work - that being the place where you primarily work.

witchgirl26 · 22-11-2017 1:45pm

GM228 wrote: »

No, this is a bit different as you are going there before you start work, it is not a customer of your employer and you already have a habitual place of work - that being the place where you primarily work.

That's wrong. Unless his workplace is on his contract as the data centre, then he is entitled to say he is driving for work and potentially claim mileage/expenses in relation to that journey and it can be argued that his working day starts from the start of that commute.

GM228 · 22-11-2017 1:50pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

That's wrong. Unless his workplace is on his contract as the data centre, then he is entitled to say he is driving for work and potentially claim mileage/expenses in relation to that journey and it can be argued that his working day starts from the start of that commute.

Yes you can claim mileage expenses, but it is not "working time".

The issue of working time for start and finishing journeys only applies when you don't have a fixed or habitual place of work and you are driving to a customer of your employer. This was all covered by the ECJ.

Also if we want to get really strict about it the ECJ judgement related to using a company vehicle as opposed to a private vehicle to/from your home.

Chris_5339762 · 23-11-2017 7:34pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Actually that's not necessarily true. I have to travel to Belfast sometimes for work but that is not my normal place of work. I am driving "for" work when I drive up there first thing in the morning and back as it is not my normal, contractual place of work and work have required me to be there. I am allowed to claim revenue mileage rates on this trip.

How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?

witchgirl26 · 24-11-2017 10:46am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?

I know for my contract it states my normal place of work address and includes a piece saying that I may be obliged to travel to other offices of the company as part of my work, then I can claim mileage on the travel to them.

Per revenue.ie:
"The normal place of work is where your employee works on a day to day basis. This may not always be your (the employer’s) base. Your business may have additional bases elsewhere. In this case, the normal place of work may not be the same for all of your employees."

I'm not a tax accountant so I couldn't say for certain if 2 places were listed on your contract what the story would be. That would be a query for revenue.

GM228 · 24-11-2017 12:46pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?

I know for my contract it states my normal place of work address and includes a piece saying that I may be obliged to travel to other offices of the company as part of my work, then I can claim mileage on the travel to them.

Per revenue.ie:
"The normal place of work is where your employee works on a day to day basis. This may not always be your (the employer’s) base. Your business may have additional bases elsewhere. In this case, the normal place of work may not be the same for all of your employees."

I'm not a tax accountant so I couldn't say for certain if 2 places were listed on your contract what the story would be. That would be a query for revenue.

Payment of subsistence payments are a matter between employer and employee, not Revenue. Such payments are not mandatory.

witchgirl26 · 24-11-2017 12:56pm

GM228 wrote: »

Payment of subsistence payments are a matter between employer and employee, not Revenue. Such payments are not mandatory.

That they are but they are a matter for revenue if you are going to pay them as they can be subject to tax. Therefore the revenue's website is a good source of information on them so that you get what can be entitled to you without having to pay tax on it.

While they are not mandatory, you can argue for them if you're doing a significant amount of driving for the company in your own car but not being reimbursed for it. Especially as your insurance category has to change and may increase as a result.

I honestly don't know of many companies that don't pay mileage or fuel for people who drive for work purposes and don't have access to a company/pool car.

AndrewJRenko · 24-11-2017 1:08pm

I'm frequently amazed by the businesses who invest big money in branding their vans and trucks, but don't seem to give a thought to driver behaviour. So you have drivers bombing around with the company name writ large on the side, with the phone in one or two hands or held to the ear as they speed around cutting up other drivers.

GM228 · 24-11-2017 1:42pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

That they are but they are a matter for revenue if you are going to pay them as they can be subject to tax. Therefore the revenue's website is a good source of information on them so that you get what can be entitled to you without having to pay tax on it.

And again this is an issue between employee and employer, there is no entitlement of receiving tax free allowances for travel, an employer can choose to pay flat-rate expenses tax free, actual rate expenses tax free or a round-sum scheme which is taxable (or nothing at all of course) - usually (but not always) covered in your contract or by for example a collective agreement.

When operating a tax free system that is a matter between employer and Revenue (not employee-Revenue) and the employer must have appropriate recording and internal control systems relating to them in place.

blanch152 · 25-11-2017 2:02am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No. Other travel as part of your work.

Wishbone Ash · 25-11-2017 8:51pm

witchgirl26 wrote: »

...Unless his workplace is on his contract...

I'm a bit puzzled by the comments regarding workplace location being on a contract.

None of the 500 employees in my organisation have a workplace location in their contract as it would be impossible to do so for staff who may be rotated among 20 or so locations. The employers address would be the only location on the contract.

markpb · 25-11-2017 9:16pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm a bit puzzled by the comments regarding workplace location being on a contract.

I'd imagine thats reasonably rare. Every contact I've ever signed (government agency, multinational and SME) has had something along the lines of 'your employer's place of business is xxx (address of the specific office if the employer had multiple, even in Dublin). You may be required to travel to alternative locations at the request of your employer and will be reimbursed for this'

Quite a few of them have also had 'Your employer may decide to move you to another reasonable location. If this happens, you are not entitled to compensation'

happywithlife · 26-11-2017 1:08pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm frequently amazed by the businesses who invest big money in branding their vans and trucks, but don't seem to give a thought to driver behaviour. So you have drivers bombing around with the company name writ large on the side, with the phone in one or two hands or held to the ear as they speed around cutting up other drivers.

I've previously rung a company to complain their driver behaviour - gave them reg details and where and when incident happened and asked they speak to the driver. I know they probably rolled their eyes and had a laugh when I hung up but on the other hand that driver may already had a warning 're driving so this may have had an impact - I will never know but felt better after reporting it. He very nearly caused a horrible accident all for want of trying to rush ahead in rush hour traffic- it made no difference in the end to whether he saved time or not but I will never forget the utter stupidity and selfishness of his dangerous overtaking

bladespin · 21-04-2018 11:03am

Sorry to resurrect but does anyone know if the government have done anything about the ECJ decision, as far as I now some of our laws disagreed with it. I know our courts have to interpret our laws with regard to European rulings, just wondering if there was something 'official'.

GM228 · 21-04-2018 11:25am

bladespin wrote: »

Sorry to resurrect but does anyone know if the government have done anything about the ECJ decision, as far as I now some of our laws disagreed with it. I know our courts have to interpret our laws with regard to European rulings, just wondering if there was something 'official'.

There was no need for Irish laws to be amended to comply with the Tyco case as they didn't conflict with it.

bladespin · 21-04-2018 11:54am

GM228 wrote: »

There was no need for Irish laws to be amended to comply with the Tyco case as they didn't conflict with it.

I understood (internet research only) that there was an issue with the wages act and calculating working hours.

AlekSmart · 21-04-2018 12:55pm

bladespin wrote: »

I understood (internet research only) that there was an issue with the wages act and calculating working hours.

The RSA campaign which spurred this thread,arose from the increasing concerns regarding Class 2 (Vocational) drivers using their work vehicles for commuting.

A Truck driver parking up in a Depot,dropping the Trailer,and then commuting home in the Tractor Unit,usually Off The Tacho.

With the ever increasing sprawl of Irish Cities,this "Out-Of-Scope" driving,when added to the actual days driving work,could see a Driver heading in the direction of Fatigue,particularly if repeated over a prolonged period.

With most Operators actively seeking to maximize Driver productivity,dressed up under terms such as "Driver Optimization","Lean Management", or "Continuous Improvement",the actual hours when Drivers are required to be behind the wheel have rocketed.

This,without doubt,is leading to the types of Dangerous Driving issues often raised on this forum and elsewhere.

Regularly rostering Truck,Bus & Coach drivers to spread their Driving day over 11-14 hour durations,may well make excellent sense to the Company's Chief Financial Officer,but will inevitably lead to ever more serious accidents,and high Staff turnover.

This accountancy-driven attitude towards Commercial Driving,flies in the face of well known Human Factor issues,particularly relating to fatigue and pressure management.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVVVFXfJo0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5536135/Passengers-stage-mutiny-Greyhound-bus-driver-falls-asleep.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/traumatised-bus-driver-fell-asleep-7705335

The types of Rotas now widespread across the Irish Transport Industry,are virtually all now created from a Management Efficiency perspective,and have little or no concern for the fact that the Drivers concerned could be hauling 40+ tonnes or up to 80+ Human Passengers.

The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".

It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:

bladespin · 21-04-2018 1:09pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".

It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:

This is my area of concern, working in sales in service, we have an office but I'm mostly road based - direct from home to customer covering the country, not unusual to drive from Navan to Cork and back same day, could be off to Donegal the next, workload has increased dramatically of late and I'm often on the road 5 days (or 6) per week, long days sometimes 7am to 8pm (or later), was just wondering where I stood.

GM228 · 21-04-2018 1:16pm

bladespin wrote: »

I understood (internet research only) that there was an issue with the wages act and calculating working hours.

Have a look here:-

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-02-28a.2137

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-04-2018 1:16pm

bladespin wrote: »

This is my area of concern, working in sales in service, we have an office but I'm mostly road based - direct from home to customer covering the country, not unusual to drive from Navan to Cork and back same day, could be off to Donegal the next, workload has increased dramatically of late and I'm often on the road 5 days (or 6) per week, long days sometimes 7am to 8pm (or later), was just wondering where I stood.

If you are going to the office you are travelling to work, if you are visiting a client even when leaving from your home you are travelling for work.

AndrewJRenko · 21-04-2018 1:48pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The RSA campaign which spurred this thread,arose from the increasing concerns regarding Class 2 (Vocational) drivers using their work vehicles for commuting.

A Truck driver parking up in a Depot,dropping the Trailer,and then commuting home in the Tractor Unit,usually Off The Tacho.

With the ever increasing sprawl of Irish Cities,this "Out-Of-Scope" driving,when added to the actual days driving work,could see a Driver heading in the direction of Fatigue,particularly if repeated over a prolonged period.

With most Operators actively seeking to maximize Driver productivity,dressed up under terms such as "Driver Optimization","Lean Management", or "Continuous Improvement",the actual hours when Drivers are required to be behind the wheel have rocketed.

This,without doubt,is leading to the types of Dangerous Driving issues often raised on this forum and elsewhere.

Regularly rostering Truck,Bus & Coach drivers to spread their Driving day over 11-14 hour durations,may well make excellent sense to the Company's Chief Financial Officer,but will inevitably lead to ever more serious accidents,and high Staff turnover.

This accountancy-driven attitude towards Commercial Driving,flies in the face of well known Human Factor issues,particularly relating to fatigue and pressure management.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVVVFXfJo0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5536135/Passengers-stage-mutiny-Greyhound-bus-driver-falls-asleep.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/traumatised-bus-driver-fell-asleep-7705335

The types of Rotas now widespread across the Irish Transport Industry,are virtually all now created from a Management Efficiency perspective,and have little or no concern for the fact that the Drivers concerned could be hauling 40+ tonnes or up to 80+ Human Passengers.

The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".

It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:

Ah sure, what are you moaning about? Sure isn't Verona Murphy on the case of the really important safety issues - pushing for the group of road users that don't kill people to get penalty points and hi-vis jackets? Sure that's almost certain to save at least zero lives in the coming year - what more would you want?

A cynic might think that it is a 'Look Over There' diversionary PR tactic, but I'd never believe anything like that.

Mrs OBumble · 21-04-2018 2:37pm

There are several different issues about here, and they don't all have the same legal or practical answers.

1) Total hours behind the wheel for commercial drivers (ie people who drive all day) are increasing with urban sprawl: a bus driver may be rostered to drive for 11 (or whatever) hours, but have another hour on each end to get to/from home. Easy fix is to require drivers to live within Nkm of their depot or to not drive themselves to/from work - but it would make the labour supply tighter and so put wages up.

2) The stress of driving for people who do work at sites some distance from their home - eg technicians, property managers, housing officers, social workers, sales reps, area managers - lots of roles. Employers should have policies and training in place to make sure that such people travel safely back to their base - and that they are covered by appropriate insurance when driving.

3) Also for the group in 2), there's a question of what allowances can be paid. This where the Revenue rules may be different from the Health and Safety ones, eg Revenue says you cannot claim an overnight stay within Xkm of home, H&S says you cannot drive home within Y hours of doing certain traumatic jobs. [I have no idea if that's a real example - but I'm sure there are ones like that.]

4) Also there's the question of total working hours vs paid working hours. You're considered to be "at work" while driving from a customer site back to base - but not all employment contracts pay you for those hours. This isn't necessarily illegal - it depends if the rate for your paid hours is high enough to average out to more than the minimum wage for actual hours.An extreme case is cabin crew who are only paid while their plane is actually in the air.

5) There are limits on the number of hours you are allowed to work on average, too, and even time "at work" which isn't specifically paid may be counted. Also, these rules may contradict H&S: if may be safer for someone to take a break for an hour before driving home - but doing so may mean their "at work" hours go too high.

6) Paying the costs of travel is also interesting. Revenue have certain rules - sometimes payments are taxable, meaning that someone on more than 35k effectively gets paid lower expenses that someone on under that, for the same journey.

7) Smokefree workplaces also kick in here: if you're at work while travelling in your car between customer sites, it's illegal to be smoking in the car - even if it's safe to do so (eg you're parked somehwere). People really hate this rule.

I'm sure I've missed some .....

LiJ81 · 10-12-2018 10:03pm

I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.

Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.

AndrewJRenko · 10-12-2018 11:43pm

LiJ81 wrote: »

I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.

Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.

In my consulting days, it would have been a bit of give and take. I'd often have early starts 6am or 7am, but I wouldn't always be on site for 9am, or waiting till 5.30pm to leave. So the travel would often be split between personal time and work time.

It would be quite dangerous to have you doing long drives to/from sites on top of a full working day on a regular basis.

cdaly_ · 11-12-2018 12:05pm

LiJ81 wrote: »

I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.

Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.

How far do you live from the Cork office? How long would your commute be if you were attending for work there? I would say you should allow that commute time as your own time and anything over that travelling to a client is work time. If your employer doesn't like that, you could say that working from home means you're on company time as soon as you cross your door.

Use those arguments to make a case for an agreed charging method...

If you are driving for work, you’re at work ?

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