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re plan the leaving cert for august

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  • 24-05-2020 7:43pm
    #1
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭


    We should forget about predicted grades, etc and do the right thing by everyone and go ahead with the leaving cert at the end of august.
    The situation is changing all the time, by the start of August there should be no issue keeping them 2-3-5m apart in an exam hall.
    There is no sign of social distancing in the parks, etc around the place, so its clear young people are done with the restrictions.
    So its time to get back to normal, and run the exams at the start of August. Get the results corrected as quickly as possible (pay teachers more to correct them to incentivise), CAO offers out.
    The same people who moan about the worries of the exams, will moan about predicted grades, and if not will find something else to moan about.


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    #2
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    The exams were cancelled, you can't go back and tell students who have stopped studying that they should start again. It's over.

    Teachers wanted exams to go ahead but students effectively got them cancelled on the back of a dodgy survey.


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    #3
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    It was only cancelled a couple of weeks ago, plenty of time to get the books out again and do what is fair by everyone.


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    #4
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    If you are a parent or a student who felt the LC should have gone ahead you should have made your voice heard weeks ago. That horse has long bolted.


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    #5
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    If you are a parent or a student who felt the LC should have gone ahead you should have made your voice heard weeks ago. That horse has long bolted.
    To be fair, many people tried, and got shouted down by the same people who shout down the unpopular referendum campaigns, and unpopular political candidates.
    The OP is right, but it won’t happen. The government, the parents, the media, and the teachers unions (as opposed to the teachers, who didn’t get a say) have let the class of 2020 down in a big way.


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    #6
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    RealJohn wrote: »
    To be fair, many people tried, and got shouted down by the same people who shout down the unpopular referendum campaigns, and unpopular political candidates.
    The OP is right, but it won’t happen. The government, the parents, the media, and the teachers unions (as opposed to the teachers, who didn’t get a say) have let the class of 2020 down in a big way.

    But sure it'll be grand, the same people will be complaining about how hard done by their child was and how it is their teachers fault that their child didn't get enough points.....
    Apparently the big push now is to get the debs on, the mind boggles.


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    #7
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    To be fair, many people tried, and got shouted down by the same people who shout down the unpopular referendum campaigns, and unpopular political candidates.
    The OP is right, but it won’t happen. The government, the parents, the media, and the teachers unions (as opposed to the teachers, who didn’t get a say) have let the class of 2020 down in a big way.

    The teachers unions weren't involved in the decision.


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    #8
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    It was only cancelled a couple of weeks ago, plenty of time to get the books out again and do what is fair by everyone.



    You can't play with their heads like that.


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    #9
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    average_runner wrote: »
    You can't play with their heads like that.

    As opposed to the predicted score playing with their heads? If people can't accept a little adversity, especially in these extraordinary times, its not really setting them up for life very well, is it.
    Its never too late to do the right thing


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    #10
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    History Queen wrote: »
    The teachers unions weren't involved in the decision.
    That’s exactly the problem. As soon as predicted grades were even mentioned, they should have been out making it clear that that option was not on the table, but there wasn’t a word, and now look where we are.


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    #11
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    That’s exactly the problem. As soon as predicted grades were even mentioned, they should have been out making it clear that that option was not on the table, but there wasn’t a word, and now look where we are.

    The Minister for Education himself put them off the table

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/a-fortnight-ago-mchugh-said-predicted-grades-were-biased-what-changed-1.4248814

    In what crystal ball do you think the unions were gazing that they thought he would give in to whinging from the uninformed when he had clearly stated it wasn't an option? Stop placing blame where it really isn't deserved. Our unions have lots of flaws but tobe fair this is categorically not their fault.


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    #12
    tina1040
    Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭tina1040


    Sitting a smaller version of the exams has to be better than the pressure of not knowing what's happening with the grading system ( or lack of system). Leaving Cert students are 18/19 year olds and well able to manage a bit of stress for the summer. Is it really going to much more stressful than students face any other year?
    The student survey should never have been such an influence on the final decision.


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    #13
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    If I was doing the leaving, I know I'd 100% rather do an exam than be screwed over by a system and/or a teacher which might not have liked me.
    I still can't believe that people thought predicted grades was the best option, there is always a way to run it with social distancing in place. I think we have come to the worst solution for the students here.


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    #14
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    If I was doing the leaving, I know I'd 100% rather do an exam than be screwed over by a system and/or a teacher which might not have liked me.
    I still can't believe that people thought predicted grades was the best option, there is always a way to run it with social distancing in place
    . I think we have come to the worst solution for the students here.

    Yes, I made a point in a previous thread that previous exams and mocks were just a sandbox with which to prepare for the leaving cert. That's the deal. Nothing more.
    They should do an analysis of previous years results when compared to the leaving cert.
    There was always a good number of people who got D's or C's in the mocks ended up getting A's in the Leaving. This is due to the fact that they might of worked their ass off in the final three months or were marked down by a particular teacher or both.


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    #15
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    There was always a good number of people who got D's or C's in the mocks ended up getting A's in the Leaving. This is due to the fact that they might of worked their ass off in the final three months or were marked down by a particular teacher or both.

    How it was for me anyway!


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    #16
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    History Queen wrote: »
    The Minister for Education himself put them off the table

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/a-fortnight-ago-mchugh-said-predicted-grades-were-biased-what-changed-1.4248814

    In what crystal ball do you think the unions were gazing that they thought he would give in to whinging from the uninformed when he had clearly stated it wasn't an option? Stop placing blame where it really isn't deserved. Our unions have lots of flaws but tobe fair this is categorically not their fault.
    It hardly took a crystal ball. There weren’t many people speaking about it who weren’t at least talking about predicted grades, and the unions should have been making it clear that it was neither acceptable, nor even workable. Instead, they sat back and helped get us into this mess. To say that it’s “categorically not their fault” is ridiculous. How can it not be at least partly their fault if they sat back and did nothing to prevent something that has the potential to damage the relationship between teachers and students for generations to come? Not a single word of protest from either union? But it’s “categorically not their fault”? Come on.


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    #17
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    We should forget about predicted grades, etc and do the right thing by everyone and go ahead with the leaving cert at the end of august.
    The situation is changing all the time, by the start of August there should be no issue keeping them 2-3-5m apart in an exam hall.
    There is no sign of social distancing in the parks, etc around the place, so its clear young people are done with the restrictions.
    So its time to get back to normal, and run the exams at the start of August. Get the results corrected as quickly as possible (pay teachers more to correct them to incentivise), CAO offers out.
    The same people who moan about the worries of the exams, will moan about predicted grades, and if not will find something else to moan about.


    Agreed. Can someone point me to another comparable European nation that has cancelled its equivalent of the Leaving Cert?


    Again, why is ireland different? Usually when we're different, it's not a good thing.


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    #18
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    It hardly took a crystal ball. There weren’t many people speaking about it who weren’t at least talking about predicted grades, and the unions should have been making it clear that it was neither acceptable, nor even workable. Instead, they sat back and helped get us into this mess. To say that it’s “categorically not their fault” is ridiculous. How can it not be at least partly their fault if they sat back and did nothing to prevent something that has the potential to damage the relationship between teachers and students for generations to come? Not a single word of protest from either union? But it’s “categorically not their fault”? Come on.

    You obviously don't understand the function of a union or the education sector at all. Unions, at the time the public furore was being stoked by opportunistic politicians and media personalities, were busy working out the logistics of Plan B at the time... remember that? The deferred Leaving Certificate that the Minister had committed to rolling out? The LC the Taoiseach said would happen "by hook or by crook".

    But instead of working on that you think they should have been giving even more airtime to the farcical suggestion of predicted grades? The fact that the farce has become reality is squarely the fault of The Department of Education and out political "leaders". Leadership requires making tough decisions, it is abundantly clear that our politicians do not have the stomach for that. From the time the deffered Leaving Cert was announced the unions rightly began focusing on how to make this happen.

    On Monday 13th April Seamus Lehart the TUI president urged teachers to support the deferred LC and even then said predicted grades were not supported by the union or offeree as an alternative to the state exams. If you don't believe me read link below.

    https://https//www.tui.ie/news/important-message-from-tui-president-seamus-lahart-%E2%80%93-factual-information-on-current-state-exams-situation-.13731.html

    ASTI made a similar announcement but I can't find it right now.

    But because they weren't all over the.medis adding to student and parent stress by getting in to a pointless argument with the uninformed you feel they should be blamed? Are you anti union or just anti teacher or is it both?

    And as for the "not a single word of protest", did u not see the kicking the ASTI just got for.trying to protect their members? Can you imagine what would have happened if either union dared object to plan C after Joe McHugh announcing it was decided to go with predicted grades following public health advice?


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    #19
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Again, why is ireland different? Usually when we're different, it's not a good thing.
    This is completely untrue.
    We’ve often been different because we were ahead of the curve and we’ve also been different because other countries were being clearly, objectively wrong, and we were resisting normalising that wrongness. Sadly, we’ve fallen down on the latter position in recent years.
    History Queen wrote: »
    And as for the "not a single word of protest", did u not see the kicking the ASTI just got for.trying to protect their members? Can you imagine what would have happened if either union dared object to plan C after Joe McHugh announcing it was decided to go with predicted grades following public health advice?
    The unions didn’t have to be “all over the media”, but can you point me to a single statement by either union backing up the minister’s position that predicted grades weren’t on the table. I didn’t see one (though if there was one, the fact that they’re embracing it now would be even worse). Would it have added to the stress levels of students and parents? Maybe, but not doing it has added massively to the stress levels of teachers, and it’s teachers, not students and parents, that the teachers unions are supposed to look out for.
    They’ve failed, abjectly, in that remit during this crisis.

    And there’s very little they needed to do in your so called “plan b”, other than keep an eye on it, because, as I’ve already said, we’re still more than two months from the date it was due to start. They had plenty of time to release one statement confirming that teachers would not be engaging with predicted grades.

    No, I did not see the ASTI kicking off about predicted grades. They only kicked off about a lack of protection for teachers if students/parents took a case against them, and the rolled over on that pretty quickly.
    I didn’t see either union make any meaningful objection to actually engaging with the predicted grading. In fact, both unions said that teachers would engage, even though neither union put that to the members.


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    #20
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    This is completely untrue.
    We’ve often been different because we were ahead of the curve and we’ve also been different because other countries were being clearly, objectively wrong, and we were resisting normalising that wrongness. Sadly, we’ve fallen down on the latter position in recent years.


    The unions didn’t have to be “all over the media”, but can you point me to a single statement by either union backing up the minister’s position that predicted grades weren’t on the table. I didn’t see one (though if there was one, the fact that they’re embracing it now would be even worse). Would it have added to the stress levels of students and parents? Maybe, but not doing it has added massively to the stress levels of teachers, and it’s teachers, not students and parents, that the teachers unions are supposed to look out for.
    They’ve failed, abjectly, in that remit during this crisis.

    And there’s very little they needed to do in your so called “plan b”, other than keep an eye on it, because, as I’ve already said, we’re still more than two months from the date it was due to start. They had plenty of time to release one statement confirming that teachers would not be engaging with predicted grades.

    No, I did not see the ASTI kicking off about predicted grades. They only kicked off about a lack of protection for teachers if students/parents took a case against them, and the rolled over on that pretty quickly.
    I didn’t see either union make any meaningful objection to actually engaging with the predicted grading. In fact, both unions said that teachers would engage, even though neither union put that to the members.

    You don't know what you are talking about. Read the link I posted in full.


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    #21
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Agreed. Can someone point me to another comparable European nation that has cancelled its equivalent of the Leaving Cert?


    Again, why is ireland different? Usually when we're different, it's not a good thing.

    Well some countries did. It was being pointed out again and again in the media as part of the campaign for predicted grades that we were the only country in Europe running exams when everywhere else had cancelled theirs and why did we have to be different? The Baccalaureate was cancelled in France, A-Levels cancelled in the UK to name two close to home. On the other hand the Abitur continued in Germany but that wasn't highlighted in the Irish media until two weeks ago, after the Leaving Cert was cancelled.

    Different isn't always bad. We followed the herd and cancelled our exams and no teachers wanted this.


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    #22
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    We should forget about predicted grades, etc and do the right thing by everyone and go ahead with the leaving cert at the end of august.
    The situation is changing all the time, by the start of August there should be no issue keeping them 2-3-5m apart in an exam hall.
    There is no sign of social distancing in the parks, etc around the place, so its clear young people are done with the restrictions.
    So its time to get back to normal, and run the exams at the start of August. Get the results corrected as quickly as possible (pay teachers more to correct them to incentivise), CAO offers out.
    The same people who moan about the worries of the exams, will moan about predicted grades, and if not will find something else to moan about.

    I think the department decided to take the easy option.
    Had the exams run in August the job of getting them corrected in a timely manner would have been a logical nightmare as teachers returned to school in September. Anyone who has corrected for the SEC will know the hours involved are not feasible with teaching a timetable alongside it.
    This option gave them the path of least resistance. The bell curve will be applied to the grades and results will nationally be no different from other years. There will be winners and losers and .any will never know which category they fell into.


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    #23
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    I think the department decided to take the easy option.
    And reading the advice / presentation from the SEC, they didn't get much support there to stick to their guns (which I admit surprises me).

    Phil, I argued in this forum and in others for weeks before they made the decision that predictive grades were a terrible option for everyone concerned, including the subset of students who wee shouting for them. Every teacher I know IRL and saw posting on boards said the same.

    But we got them anyway, and tbh the horse has bolted and is in the next county by now. They're not gonna revert again, and in fairness at this stage it would actually be unfair to the students if they did. We're stuck with it.


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    #24
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    There's no chance of reversing the decision. Nor would it be fair.

    I was sceptical of predicted grades from the start but a cohort of students egged on by the media and politicians got us where we are. There's no going back.


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    #25
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,115 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    At least everyone is sorted for any future 'Be careful what you wish for' English essays.


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    #26
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,433 ✭✭✭touts


    It should never have been cancelled. It could easily have been held in August for any student who did not want predictive grades. There would have been a few but so few social distancing could have easily been put in place. That would have satisfied everyone.

    But instead the High Court will be fully booked through August and September hearing cases against schools and teachers. I wouldn't be surprised to see injunctions going in to stop colleges commencing lectures. It will be an absolute disaster and the only winners will be the lawyers.


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    #27
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Peregrine wrote: »
    There's no chance of reversing the decision. Nor would it be fair.
    As opposed to the fair alternative at the moment?


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    #28
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,866 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Look, it is over. Anyone of my sibling's and friends kids due to sit it are absolutely delighted to have the pressure of a rote regurgitation one off exam over now.

    Anyway the genie is not going back in that bottle!

    Students have the choice of not opting for predictive grades and sitting the exam later. That's an option for those who like exams.


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    #29
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Look, it is over. Anyone of my sibling's and friends kids due to sit it are absolutely delighted to have the pressure of a rote regurgitation one off exam over now.

    Anyway the genie is not going back in that bottle!

    Students have the choice of not opting for predictive grades and sitting the exam later. That's an option for those who like exams.

    Once they don't start whinging that their predicted grades aren't what they were going to get, that is all grand! :)


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    #30
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,866 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Once they don't start whinging that their predicted grades aren't what they were going to get, that is all grand! :)

    They can appeal, or sit the LC at a later date AFAIK.

    Anyway it's probably the best year ever for LC students. I doubt any teacher + the Head's review will result in anything that might cause a High Court Case TBH.

    It's the mammies that will complain if (and I doubt it), it is warranted, that's for sure :p

    Let's wait and see. The Universities will be gagging to take in students so points may go down a lot.

    Just wondered if CAO has any input this year? Will they process the predictive grades for points or what?

    Sorry, not asking you specifically, but in general.


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    #31
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    A
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    It's the mammies that will complain if (and I doubt it), it is warranted, that's for sure :p
    I heard 2 of the mammies complaining to one another across the garden wall earlier.

    A few weeks ago the same ladies were complaining about them having to sit LC in July.

    To-day they were complaining that their own teachers would be involved in the process!

    What exactly they thought the alternative in between was I was tempted to ask, but for the sake of peace with my neighbours I held my whist!

    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    The Universities will be gagging to take in students so points may go down a lot.
    There will be plenty of Irish students to take the place of the international students (it's only about 12,000 undergrads anyway spread through the system, and I'd bet many will still come unless there's a big "second wave" before term starts.). You might see some bit of a drop in points for courses where they are well-represented (medicine for example, esp RCSI), but they're over-playing it. Their real gripe is that they can charge international students full fees, and make more money per head than for the Irish students.
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Just wondered if CAO has any input this year? Will they process the predictive grades for points or what?
    Presumably. There's only one system set up to allocate third-level courses on the basis of points.


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