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Pope Francis calls for civil union law for same-sex couples

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  • 21-10-2020 6:17pm
    #1
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭


    In a documentary that premiered Wednesday in Rome, Pope Francis called for the passage of civil union laws for same-sex couples, departing from the position of the Vatican’s doctrinal office and the pope’s predecessors on the issue.

    The remarks came amid a portion of the documentary that reflected on pastoral care for those who identify as LGBT.

    “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it,” Pope Francis said in the film, of his approach to pastoral care.

    After those remarks, and in comments likely to spark controversy among Catholics, Pope Francis weighed in directly on the issue of civil unions for same-sex couples.

    “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered,” the pope said. “I stood up for that.”
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-for-civil-union-law-for-same-sex-couples-in-shift-from-vatican-stance-12462

    Interesting development, I suppose he is getting down near hair splitting territory and saying that civil unions are not "marriage", either in the full legalistic sense or the word, or especially the religious and theological sense, thus the Catholic Church need not be against it, in the way it would have to be for gay marriage. So, in other words, the state can do what it wants to regularize legal rights for gay people, but don't call it marriage.

    Pope Francis has a tendency to be quite ambiguous with his words at times and short on detail. Say what you want about Pope Benedict but his communication was always excellent, not much analysis or interpretation was needed.

    Do you think this move by Pope Francis is a good one, or has it strayed too close to contradicting Church teaching?


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    #2
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    John Hutton wrote: »
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-for-civil-union-law-for-same-sex-couples-in-shift-from-vatican-stance-12462

    Interesting development, I suppose he is getting down near hair splitting territory and saying that civil unions are not "marriage", either in the full legalistic sense or the word, or especially the religious and theological sense, thus the Catholic Church need not be against it, in the way it would have to be for gay marriage. So, in other words, the state can do what it wants to regularize legal rights for gay people, but don't call it marriage.

    Pope Francis has a tendency to be quite ambiguous with his words at times and short on detail. Say what you want about Pope Benedict but his communication was always excellent, not much analysis or interpretation was needed.

    Do you think this move by Pope Francis is a good one, or has it strayed too close to contradicting Church teaching?

    Not sure where he gets "children of God" from (as in broad brushstroking everyone into God's family).

    If folk who receive him are given the right to become children of God, it stands to reason that people, by default, aren't children of God.


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    #3
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    It seems that things may not be as were portrayed:

    https://twitter.com/CatholicArena/status/1319031164548583425


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    #4
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,117 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    As far as I can make out there are two separate interviews - the 2019 interview conducted by Valentina Alazraki which is linked to in the tweet from Catholic Arena, in which the pope makes remarks about the right of homosexual people to a family life, and a more recent interview conducted by Evgeny Afineevsky in which he calls for civil unions, and says that this has been his position in the past.


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    #5
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    As far as I can make out there are two separate interviews - the 2019 interview conducted by Valentina Alazraki which is linked to in the tweet from Catholic Arena, in which the pope makes remarks about the right of homosexual people to a family life, and a more recent interview conducted by Evgeny Afineevsky in which he calls for civil unions, and says that this has been his position in the past.

    I'm sure we will get some clarification from the Vatican in the coming days. Unfortunately by that time this will have gone round the world as if Church teaching has changed when it actually hasn't. I like Francis but his communication is poor.


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    #6
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    John Hutton wrote: »
    I'm sure we will get some clarification from the Vatican in the coming days. Unfortunately by that time this will have gone round the world as if Church teaching has changed when it actually hasn't. I like Francis but his communication is poor.

    I'm glad. Some people's opinions will never change but i think it's clear what Pope Francis has said. Same-sex marriage is legal in Ireland so i'm not sure it really matters too much in any case.


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    #7
    8kczg9v0swrydm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭8kczg9v0swrydm


    I think times like this call for absolute clarity.

    First and foremost, this is the teaching of the Church, straight from the Catechism:

    “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, Tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2357).

    Secondly, what the Pope is alleged to have said is at best a private opinion. Catholics are bound to adhere with religious submission to what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and the ordinary Magisterium of the Church teach on the matter in question.

    Thirdly, in light of the above, it is difficult to see how one could support gay civil unions as a Catholic. Since homosexual acts are "acts of grave depravity", how would legitimising a union which carries a strong possibility of such acts being committed a good thing, objectively speaking?

    Cardinal Burke, the former Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, has issued a statement in response to what the Pope had stated. I would highly encourage all to read it in order to dispel all uncertainty on the topic, here.

    Pax!


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    #8
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Maximus Early Synthesizer wrote: »
    I think times like this call for absolute clarity.

    First and foremost, this is the teaching of the Church, straight from the Catechism:

    “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, Tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2357).

    Secondly, what the Pope is alleged to have said is at best a private opinion. Catholics are bound to adhere with religious submission to what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and the ordinary Magisterium of the Church teach on the matter in question.

    Thirdly, in light of the above, it is difficult to see how one could support gay civil unions as a Catholic. Since homosexual acts are "acts of grave depravity", how would legitimising a union which carries a strong possibility of such acts being committed a good thing, objectively speaking?

    Cardinal Burke, the former Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, has issued a statement in response to what the Pope had stated. I would highly encourage all to read it in order to dispel all uncertainty on the topic, here.

    Pax!
    We will see what happens next, we have only read a few snippets of what was no doubt a broader conversation. Pope Francis has had his words and meaning on this subject twisted before. That said, his communication style makes this easy.

    Pope Francis is not a theological and intellectual powerhouse like the previous two Popes were. It seems to me that he is almost "too" pastoral and is anxious that no one feel excluded or alienated from the church in the hope that once they have a foot in and begin exploring their faith they will amend their conduct accordingly.

    This is a defensible aim and tactic, but the problem is that this may work for a single Priest, or maybe even a Bishop, but the papacy is different and doctrinal accuracy and coherence is vital and this has been lacking.


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    #9
    8kczg9v0swrydm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭8kczg9v0swrydm


    John Hutton wrote: »
    We will see what happens next, we have only read a few snippets of what was no doubt a broader conversation. Pope Francis has had his words and meaning on this subject twisted before. That said, his communication style makes this easy.

    Pope Francis is not a theological and intellectual powerhouse like the previous two Popes were. It seems to me that he is almost "too" pastoral and is anxious that no one feel excluded or alienated from the church in the hope that once they have a foot in and begin exploring their faith they will amend their conduct accordingly.

    This is a defensible aim and tactic, but the problem is that this may work for a single Priest, or maybe even a Bishop, but the papacy is different and doctrinal accuracy and coherence is vital and this has been lacking.

    There is already a strong possibility that the Pope's words have been twisted. Allegations have surfaced that the the English translation of the Pope's words in the documentary Francesco does not accurately reflect what Pope Francis said in Spanish.

    The Pope is reported to have said: "Homosexuals have the right to be in the family. They are children of God, they have the right to a family. No one can be thrown out of the family, or make life impossible for that".

    It would appear that Pope Francis is merely defending the dignity of human beings and appealing to families not to reject people simply because of the inclinations they are struggling with.

    Additionally, the Pope uses the Spanish word "Convivencia Civil" - this does not denote civil unions, but a civil coexistence law which would provide legal protection for homosexual people. Therefore, the plain translation of what Pope Francis says later in the documentary is: "what we have to create is a civil coexistence law" not "a civil union law".

    I am not a Spanish speaker, perhaps there is someone who could confirm this?


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    #10
    jetfiremuck
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭jetfiremuck


    HE is certasinly putting himself out there....that and the two popes on the go at the same time....ahhh yes traditions be damned.


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    #11
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    John Hutton wrote: »
    It seems that things may not be as were portrayed:

    https://twitter.com/CatholicArena/status/1319031164548583425

    It's a bit poor there has to be all this what Francis really said stuff. I read he opposed homosexual marriage, but accepted civil partnerships, for some time.

    It does not change Church teaching.


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    #12
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Maximus Early Synthesizer wrote: »
    There is already a strong possibility that the Pope's words have been twisted. Allegations have surfaced that the the English translation of the Pope's words in the documentary Francesco does not accurately reflect what Pope Francis said in Spanish.

    The Pope is reported to have said: "Homosexuals have the right to be in the family. They are children of God, they have the right to a family. No one can be thrown out of the family, or make life impossible for that".

    It would appear that Pope Francis is merely defending the dignity of human beings and appealing to families not to reject people simply because of the inclinations they are struggling with.

    Additionally, the Pope uses the Spanish word "Convivencia Civil" - this does not denote civil unions, but a civil coexistence law which would provide legal protection for homosexual people. Therefore, the plain translation of what Pope Francis says later in the documentary is: "what we have to create is a civil coexistence law" not "a civil union law".

    I am not a Spanish speaker, perhaps there is someone who could confirm this?
    Good post. More details emerging which certainly paint the filmmaker in an unfavorable light.
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/context-of-popes-civil-union-documentary-comment-reported-14270


    None of this is helped by the failure of the Vatican to issue a clarification.


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    #13
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Good post. More details emerging which certainly paint the filmmaker in an unfavorable light.
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/context-of-popes-civil-union-documentary-comment-reported-14270


    None of this is helped by the failure of the Vatican to issue a clarification.

    Some say that PF is happy with the ambiguity, as a way of keeping people of wildly differing views happy, but it seems a poor way of doing business. It's all like Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland:

    'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'


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