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The Forgotten 200

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  • 20-11-2013 10:19pm
    #1
    lillycool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭


    Hi
    I am new to boards.ie and thought this would be a good place to research a story that I am interested in, (hopefully!)
    Especially coming up to 2016 - those who returned to Ireland following WW1 and have been mentioned before as the 'forgotten 200'; c.200 who returned from WW1 to Ireland and did not meet a (shall we say) 'welcome' homecoming.
    Would appreciate any thought/comments/feedback
    Many thanks


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    #2
    TwoGallants
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    Could you be more specific? One of the most effective (and famous) IRA commanders of the war of Independence was a British veteran in the Arabian campaign (Tom Barry). In fact, he was a significant player in the local veteran's association.


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    #3
    lillycool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭lillycool


    Thank you, and I was slightly mixed up, was having a conversation with someone about this but after further research, from wiki; - 'In total out of around 200 civilians killed as informers, 82 were ex-servicemen'.
    So it was the 82 I was referring to and I have found more research.

    thanks


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    #4
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    2 murdered ex-servicemen :

    Joseph Walsh

    Malachy Halfpenny

    Don' know if these are part of the 82.


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    #5
    lillycool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭lillycool


    Thanks johnny doyle, no I meant by the IRA - it's been documented that 200 'informers' were murdered in the early years of which 82 were ex-servicemen.
    It seems a bit disproportionately high; 82 out of 200 and I am just interested in their stories, because I have an interest in WW1 in relation to Ireland - those who went there and returned. Were they actual informers or were they targeted by association. 29 in Cork, apparently, and I know the background to that story, and I am just wondering about the others. I have few links I need to investigate from searching on wiki etc but if anyone has any other info that would be great - many thanks

    Quote I found:

    ‘’The majority of ex-servicemen, who took no part in the conflict.. (i.e. the war of independence).. ‘ were however in many cases subjected to intimidation by the IRA. Some were targeted by the IRA for allegedly giving information to British forces, and for example, a total of 29 ex-servicemen were shot dead in Co. Cork as suspected informers. In total out of around 200 civilians killed by the IRA as informers, 82 were ex-servicemen’’.

    Thanks in advance for any comments/information.


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    #6
    TwoGallants
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    Highly doubtful simply because they fought in the British army, that would put a huge number of Irish at risk in one way or another. Including Tom Barry, among others. Unfortunately, it was likely because they were Protestant as well as being ex servicemen.


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    #7
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    from The War of Independence in Limerick 1912-1921 by Thomas Toomey

    20th March 1920 ex-soldier Denis Crowley executed as spy

    20th May 1920 ex-soldier James Saunders shot by RIC/B&Ts firing indiscriminately

    24th July 1920 B&T Walter Oakley killed. 2 ex-soldiers arrested and tried - Michael Blake and James O'Neill. Both found not guilty but killed by B&Ts/Auxies(?) on return journey from court

    15th Aug 1920 ex-soldier Edward Paget beaten by B&Ts and dies

    20th December 1920 ex-soldier James Hynan shot dead by B&Ts

    31st December 1920 ex-soldier Michael O'Mera executed as spy

    18th March 1921 ex-soldier John O'Grady executed as spy

    22nd May 1921 ex Canadian soldier Patrick Creamer shot by RIC/B&Ts. Died of wounds.

    27th June 1921 ex-soldier John Creminns shot dead by Auxies

    28th June 1921 ex-soldier Michael Boland executed as spy

    29th June 1921 ex-soldiers Patrick Sheahan and John Sullivan executed as spies

    7th July 1921 ex-soldier Jack Moloney shot dead by unspecified


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    #8
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Former Company Sergeant Major John Joe McDonnell of the Connaught Rangers was murdered by Crown Forces in Clifden on the 16/3/1921


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    #9
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    George Walker ex soldier was shot by crown forces May(?)1920.


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    #10
    Ozymandiaz
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Ozymandiaz


    A lot of questions come to mind:-

    Were these people shot/executed/murdered (pick a word that suits your agenda) for being ex-British Army or was it because they were informing?

    If for informing it was unfortunate for them that they were caught - obviously.

    Did those that condemned them at the time have proof of their spying activities?

    Should those who carried out the sentence have followed their orders?

    Do we, at this remove, have sufficient evidence of a definitive nature to judge the matter one way or the other?


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    #11
    lillycool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭lillycool


    Thank you Ozymandiaz, they are the questions I am interested in.


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    #12
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    With 82 ex-servicemen shot as informers, you'd have to reckon that there'd have been a range of cases, from those who truly were active informers on the one hand to those who were mistakenly believed to be so, to those who were accused simply for the purposes of settling a score. At this point, in many cases, it would be very hard to disentangle the truth.

    But I'm sceptical that many people were shot simply because they were ex-servicemen and so presumed to be informers. Ireland was full of ex-servicemen; most people had one or more among their family and friends, and many Volunteers were ex-servicemen. I doubt that being an ex-serviceman, on its own, would ever have been enough to persuade people that you were an informer, and ought to be shot as such.


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    #13
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    lillycool wrote: »
    Thank you, and I was slightly mixed up, was having a conversation with someone about this but after further research, from wiki; - 'In total out of around 200 civilians killed as informers, 82 were ex-servicemen'.
    So it was the 82 I was referring to and I have found more research.

    thanks

    Hi lilly, have you any link for this, I cannot seem to find the article mentioning 82 ex servicemen killed for being informers, I wonder is the the figure of 82 the number of ex servicemen killed by all combatants? As we have seen,quite a few ex servicemen were killed by crown forces.


    Right, I found it at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I

    The figure of 82 is attributed to Marie Coleman, 'Longford and the Irish Revolution page 154'

    a figure of 29 is given for Cork alone and is attributed to Peter Hart , 'the IRA and its enemies p303-304'

    From the article and I quote

    "The majority of ex-servicemen, who took no part in the conflict,(WOI) were however in many cases subjected to intimidation by the IRA.[66]"

    This is attributed to Leonard, Jane: Getting them at last: The IRA and ex-servicemen, in Fitzpatrick, Dr. David, ed, Revolution? Ireland 1917-1923, Trinity History Publications, Dublin (1990)
    pp.118-29: "Despite the British Military background of some of their members, the IRA waged 'a campaign of intimidation' against ex-servicemen in 1919-21." ISBN 978-0-9511400

    TBH, I would treat this article with suspicion, I detect a bias in the section headed 'Demobilisation and post war experience'

    I don't know Coleman or Leonard's work but Hart's and Fitzpatrick's figures need to be independently verified.


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    #14
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I'd imagine that significantly more than 200 men returned from WWI to Ireland. I have 2 in my family alone!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #15
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I'd imagine that significantly more than 200 men returned from WWI to Ireland. I have 2 in my family alone!
    Tens of thousands returned. The 200 figure refers to the number of people shot by republicans as informers in 1919-21. Of those, about 82 were ex-British servicemen.


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    #16
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    some ex-soldiers deaths get a mention on the following page along with a number of civilians

    http://irishmedals.org/gpage52.html


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    #17
    Balaclava1991
    Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Balaclava1991


    Diarmuid Ferriter writes in his book The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000 that between January 1919 and December 1921 about 20,000 Irishmen joined the British Army including over 1,500 from Co. Cork which was the most violent of the counties during the War of Independence. In October 1919 alone there were 35,000 ex-British Army members in Ireland who were receiving the out of work payment which was a 46 per cent unemployment rate compared to 10 per cent among their counterparts in mainland Britain at the time.
    When the five Southern Irish regiments were disbanded in 1922 many of the men joined the Free State Army which reached a strength of 55,000 by 1923.

    Martin Corry (1890-1979) of Cork No 1 Brigade of the IRA during the War of Independence is believed to have been responsible for the killings of dozens of informers and suspected informers at Knockraha. The condemned men were held captive in an empty crypt nicknamed "Sing Sing" and they were brutally tortured and shot and buried in a bog where a wood was later planted. Corry took the Anti-Treaty side during the Civil War and he later became a TD in 1927 when Fianna Fáil entered the Dáil and he remained in office until 1969.


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    #18
    CakeWalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3 ✭CakeWalk


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    from The War of Independence in Limerick 1912-1921 by Thomas Toomey

    20th March 1920 ex-soldier Denis Crowley executed as spy

    20th May 1920 ex-soldier James Saunders shot by RIC/B&Ts firing indiscriminately

    24th July 1920 B&T Walter Oakley killed. 2 ex-soldiers arrested and tried - Michael Blake and James O'Neill. Both found not guilty but killed by B&Ts/Auxies(?) on return journey from court

    15th Aug 1920 ex-soldier Edward Paget beaten by B&Ts and dies

    20th December 1920 ex-soldier James Hynan shot dead by B&Ts

    31st December 1920 ex-soldier Michael O'Mera executed as spy

    18th March 1921 ex-soldier John O'Grady executed as spy

    22nd May 1921 ex Canadian soldier Patrick Creamer shot by RIC/B&Ts. Died of wounds.

    27th June 1921 ex-soldier John Creminns shot dead by Auxies

    28th June 1921 ex-soldier Michael Boland executed as spy

    29th June 1921 ex-soldiers Patrick Sheahan and John Sullivan executed as spies

    7th July 1921 ex-soldier Jack Moloney shot dead by unspecified

    Many IRA were ex-BA as well so the above might well have been offed by former comrades.


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