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The poppy , to wear or not to wear?

  • 09-11-2013 8:31pm
    #1
    eejoynt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 264 ✭✭


    Good article by historian Brian Hanley in today's times on this issue

    Stronger article by Robert Fisk in yesterday's london independent on the same issue.
    Fisk's father who fought in the war stopped wearing a poppy as he reflected on the use it was put to in later years


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    More suited to this thread? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057067411


  • #3
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    I think it is a subject suitable for discussion here also. There are several reasons why people may object to the poppy, much more nuanced than the illogical anti british reasoning for objection.

    Judgement Day wrote: »
    More suited to this thread? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057067411


  • #4
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    My own opinion, is the Poppy is an internal matter for the UK and if people wish to show support to the excellent work of for ex-soldiers in Ireland, then to visit the official Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen and Women, site.


  • #5
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I have a genuine question and I'd rather not ask it in that other train wreck. As far as I know, if you buy a poppy the money goes to the Royal British Legion, who help ALL serving members of the British Armed Forces correct? So they will offer assistance to that Marine who murdered the Afghan prisoner (to pick just one example)?

    Regardless I wouldn't wear a poppy myself as I have no one specifically to remember and therefore I would rather commerate all the war dead rather than just some, but depending on the question above I would have no problem with people wearing a poppy not bought from the RBL or wearing a poppy bought from the RBL.


  • #6
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Manach wrote: »
    My own opinion, is the Poppy is an internal matter for the UK and if people wish to show support to the excellent work of for ex-soldiers in Ireland, then to visit the official Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen and Women, site.

    Which is precisely why this subject is more suitable for the AH forum. What exactly do the above organisation do to support ex.British forces personnel from Ireland?


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  • #7
    first doyle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 42 ✭first doyle


    A lot of Irish people who are in favour of wearing the poppy seem to forget that the majority of Irishmen who fought in WW1 did so for Home Rule which was never delivered. That's probably a good enough reason not to wear one.


  • #8
    Andrew_Doran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Andrew_Doran


    first doyle wrote: »
    Home Rule [..] was never delivered.

    At best inaccurate and at worst wrong.

    Government of Ireland Act 1920 aka the 4th home rule act.


  • #9
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    That's grand. Let those countries honour those who wore their uniform, to commemorate their ex-service personnel - this is not an Irish matter. My point is we have our own soldiers (of which I'd kinfolk) with their own duty that is paid in service of this state. Honour them appropriate emblems. Do not seek to airbrush them out of the debate, here not referring to yourself, but to politic types like Shatter who seem to fit to pardon those who deserted Irish service in WWII.


  • #10
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Andrew_Doran wrote: »
    At best inaccurate and at worst wrong.

    Government of Ireland Act 1920 aka the 4th home rule act.

    That's also quite misleading as what was delivered was not what would have been considered as proper Home Rule


  • #11
    first doyle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 42 ✭first doyle


    Andrew_Doran wrote: »
    At best inaccurate and at worst wrong.

    Government of Ireland Act 1920 aka the 4th home rule act.

    I'm open to correction, but all Sinn Fein TDs had pretty much set up the Dail by the time that was passed. Hardly the democratic endorsement of the Irish people.


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  • #12
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    As far as I'm concerned if you want to wear one, wear it...if not, don't. I have no reason to wear one as none of our family participated in any Commonweath forces, but I wouldn't wear an Easter Lily either. I don't feel the need to 'advertise'.

    I'm really annoyed at the poppy bullying in the uk media, presenters/footballers etc. you would be looked at as if you've got two heads if you chose not to wear one. People being sent death threats and rubbish like that.


  • #13
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I wear a poppy because I was deeply impressed at the work the British Legion did when a grand uncle of mine (ex-RN) was terminally ill a few years ago........in contrast to his treatment at the hands of the HSE.

    But each to their own - I never understand the annual debate around wearing it or not wearing it. If it matters to you, wear it, if it doesn't don't.


  • #14
    Sligo Quay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Sligo Quay


    Remembrance day in July was surpose to kill off this debate once and for all, then we don't have to wear an Easter Lily or a Poppy.
    The Poppy has be hijacked by the Loyalists extremists and the Easter Lily has been hijacked by Irish Republican extremists.
    I don't wear ether, July Remembrance Day should have put all this nonsense to rest.


  • #15
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I wear a poppy because I was deeply impressed at the work the British Legion did when a grand uncle of mine (ex-RN) was terminally ill a few years ago........in contrast to his treatment at the hands of the HSE.

    A terminally-ill person who fought for the glories of the British Empire is still somebody who fought for the British Empire and all its supremacism over other peoples. As such, it is only fitting that all British people who support imperialism should have a right to support those who fought for it, just as all Germans who support Nazism should have a right to support those who fought for it.

    Let's not try to dress up commemoration of such people as something it never was, and never will be.


  • #16
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    A lad at work had one on Saturday... Doubt most people noticed,even less cared...I never wore on while working in England,never was pressured either, but that's a while ago...
    Don't like the media pressure that those in the public eye in the Uk come under to wear a poppy,after all it's harking back to the world war 1 trenches to pay for victims of a modern conflict...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #17
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    A terminally-ill person who fought for the glories of the British Empire is still somebody who fought for the British Empire and all its supremacism over other peoples. As such, it is only fitting that all British people who support imperialism should have a right to support those who fought for it, just as all Germans who support Nazism should have a right to support those who fought for it.

    Let's not try to dress up commemoration of such people as something it never was, and never will be.

    I've no idea what you are driving at.

    As far as I know he worked for about 50 years (leaving school at 14 and joining up at 18) - and spent about 7 years in the RN and about 11 years in the UK before returning to Ireland and working for a number of transport companies here.

    In summary, when it came to his (and his family's) months of greatest need his decades of paying taxes here weren't worth a fraction of the few years he spent "supporting imperialism" - which inluded a stint on destroyers on the Arctic Convoys protecting ships ferrying supplies to the Soviets and in the Atlantic defending the sealanes along which Irish food supplies were also conveyed.

    The quite interesting thing for his family is that the totality of his service only became known once the nice people from the British Legion became involved. He never sooke much of it.


  • #18
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    my grandfather was in ww1, i do not where the poppy as the money goes to the legion , its too political


  • #19
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    A terminally-ill person who fought for the glories of the British Empire is still somebody who fought for the British Empire and all its supremacism over other peoples. As such, it is only fitting that all British people who support imperialism should have a right to support those who fought for it, just as all Germans who support Nazism should have a right to support those who fought for it.

    Let's not try to dress up commemoration of such people as something it never was, and never will be.
    It requires a special logic to compare Imperialism (of whatever kind) with Nazism. There is no doubt Rebelheart you are special.


  • #20
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    It requires a special logic to compare Imperialism (of whatever kind) with Nazism. There is no doubt Rebelheart you are special.

    There's that endearingly little enormous chip on the shoulder from you again, pedroeibar. Someday you might, just might, get over your self-declared British settler-colonial personal baggage in Ireland and be able to look at Irish history without being constrained by that perennial need to defend that imperialism here and elsewhere. Ah the remnants of the British colony, Ireland's own pied-noir: more to be pitied than laughed at, as they say.

    Anyway, nice job your side did running the British concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century, and with the almost 1,000,000 Kenyans in the gulags of Kenya in the 1950s. Fantastic work, old bean. You're right: British imperialism, how gloriously distinct from fascism was it in its view of "lesser" people. It ran 25% of the planet by believing everybody else had the same human and civil rights as the British. Yes, at least in the world according to pedroeibar and his fellow apologists for the British Empire. Speaking of "special"...


  • #21
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The main 2013 Poppy thread is here > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057067411

    Everything is discussed there from the very strong Irish connection to the poppy, featuring the massive loss of Irish lives in the Great War in Flanders poppy fields, to the Irish who fought in WWII against the Nazi's, to Irish peace keepers in Bosnia, plus everything else in between!


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  • #22
    Andrew_Doran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Andrew_Doran


    first doyle wrote: »
    I'm open to correction, but all Sinn Fein TDs had pretty much set up the Dail by the time that was passed. Hardly the democratic endorsement of the Irish people.

    Very good but my intention wasn't to strike a position nor start a debate. My intent was to call you out on stating something as fact when it is not fact. :)


  • #23
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    There's that endearingly little enormous chip on the shoulder from you again, pedroeibar. Someday you might, just might, get over your self-declared British settler-colonial personal baggage in Ireland and be able to look at Irish history without being constrained by that perennial need to defend that imperialism here and elsewhere. Ah the remnants of the British colony, Ireland's own pied-noir: more to be pitied than laughed at, as they say.

    Anyway, nice job your side did running the British concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century, and with the almost 1,000,000 Kenyans in the gulags of Kenya in the 1950s. Fantastic work, old bean. You're right: British imperialism, how gloriously distinct from fascism was it in its view of "lesser" people. It ran 25% of the planet by believing everybody else had the same human and civil rights as the British. Yes, at least in the world according to pedroeibar and his fellow apologists for the British Empire. Speaking of "special"...

    And you would equate the people responsible with that, with the 18 year old conscripted into the army and killed at the Somme?


  • #24
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    I thought that, having had a flaming session from a post or two of my own in the recent few days, that I might have become inured to posts like the ones I'm seeing here.

    So I looked over on the other thread, now well over 120 pages long, and was truly horrifed at the wave of desperate hatred, revulsion and near psychopathic loathing for the British and things British, past and present, that pervades that thread.

    How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by. You must be the world's best actors, that's for sure.

    I'll certainly be giving any visit to Ireland again some very close consideration, and here's me with an Irish name from end to end.

    For those of you with your life-long hatred to keep you warm, here on THIS part of the forum, and elsewhere, note that any person from the UK reading those awful hate-filled pages will probably choose a more friendly place to visit.

    Like Afghanistan. Just like Ireland used to be in the old days that so many of you miss so badly, over there they can smile at you with a twinkle in their eye as they press the button.

    tac


  • #25
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I think your tar brush might be a bit wide there tac.

    As with most countries, the bigoted minority are, unfortunately, the most vocal. I wore my poppy on Sunday and Monday and received only passing comments of curiosity.


  • #26
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    tac foley wrote: »
    I thought that, having had a flaming session from a post or two of my own in the recent few days, that I might have become inured to posts like the ones I'm seeing here.

    So I looked over on the other thread, now well over 120 pages long, and was truly horrifed at the wave of desperate hatred, revulsion and near psychopathic loathing for the British and things British, past and present, that pervades that thread.

    How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by. You must be the world's best actors, that's for sure.

    I'll certainly be giving any visit to Ireland again some very close consideration, and here's me with an Irish name from end to end.

    For those of you with your life-long hatred to keep you warm, here on THIS part of the forum, and elsewhere, note that any person from the UK reading those awful hate-filled pages will probably choose a more friendly place to visit.

    Like Afghanistan. Just like Ireland used to be in the old days that so many of you miss so badly, over there they can smile at you with a twinkle in their eye as they press the button.

    tac

    I wouldn't be a bit concerned about those hypocritical scum, cursing Britain as they roar on United and many of them well subsidised by the UK taxpayer


  • #27
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    tac foley wrote: »
    I thought that, having had a flaming session from a post or two of my own in the recent few days, that I might have become inured to posts like the ones I'm seeing here.

    So I looked over on the other thread, now well over 120 pages long, and was truly horrifed at the wave of desperate hatred, revulsion and near psychopathic loathing for the British and things British, past and present, that pervades that thread.

    How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by. You must be the world's best actors, that's for sure.

    I'll certainly be giving any visit to Ireland again some very close consideration, and here's me with an Irish name from end to end.

    For those of you with your life-long hatred to keep you warm, here on THIS part of the forum, and elsewhere, note that any person from the UK reading those awful hate-filled pages will probably choose a more friendly place to visit.

    Like Afghanistan. Just like Ireland used to be in the old days that so many of you miss so badly, over there they can smile at you with a twinkle in their eye as they press the button.

    tac

    You shouldnt be surprised. Invading and occupying countries gets peoples backs up.


  • #28
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I think your tar brush might be a bit wide there tac.

    As with most countries, the bigoted minority are, unfortunately, the most vocal. I wore my poppy on Sunday and Monday and received only passing comments of curiosity.


    The problem there, FF, lies with the 50/50 split that is so evident on the other thread. Not exactly a minority as I see it.

    I'm proud to wear my poppy and maple leaf badge, and to go to my nearby churchyard and stand for a couple of minutes beside the graves of four of my fellow countrymen who never got to go home. The funny thing is, while I'm there I don't think about imperialism, enslavement and eviction, let alone colonial agression. I just think how nice it would have been to have sat down with any of them in a pub and have a laff, instead of visiting their graves.

    Another of my visitees, Tom Foley, who died when his Liberator ditched in the North Sea in 1945, had eyes of such an astonishing blue that his girlfriend, who never married, called him Bonny, after the song 'The bonny blue flag'. Tom, alas, is now just a name on a wall, like so many.

    I'd be amazed if this post didn't get flamed by the usual people, so rather than give them any more satisfaction I'll end there. Thankfully, I had the good sense to put them all on my 'ignore' list, so that they can seethe in silent isolation.

    It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that all those who died, died for them as well, so that we are not all now reading this post in German, if at all.

    tac


  • #29
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    You shouldnt be surprised. Invading and occupying countries gets peoples backs up.

    I agree - down with perfidious Albion and all it stands for.

    Out with the imperialist scum......begone and take your trappings of a faded empire with you.......

    Just make sure you leave us your wallet when we need it........

    ......and if you if you wouldn't mind not being so reasonable in setting the interest rate in future, that would be a great help - you're showing up our European 'friends.'


  • #30
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    There's that endearingly little enormous chip on the shoulder from you again, pedroeibar. Someday you might, just might, get over your self-declared British settler-colonial personal baggage in Ireland and be able to look at Irish history without being constrained by that perennial need to defend that imperialism here and elsewhere. Ah the remnants of the British colony, Ireland's own pied-noir: more to be pitied than laughed at, as they say.

    Anyway, nice job your side did running the British concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century, and with the almost 1,000,000 Kenyans in the gulags of Kenya in the 1950s. Fantastic work, old bean. You're right: British imperialism, how gloriously distinct from fascism was it in its view of "lesser" people. It ran 25% of the planet by believing everybody else had the same human and civil rights as the British. Yes, at least in the world according to pedroeibar and his fellow apologists for the British Empire. Speaking of "special"...
    Firstly, I am neither imperialist nor an apologist for the British Empire. I do not have a chip on my shoulder, but I like to think that I have the ability to judge history and its events in the context – social, political and economic – of the appropriate era, giving me a truer perspective. The content of your recent posts suggests an entirely blinkered view of history and a racial hatred that IMO infringes common decency, as for example your comment on the assistance provided by the RBL to a terminally ill veteran who was a conscript.

    Secondly, in describing me as
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Ireland's own pied-noir: more to be pitied than laughed at, as they say.
    shows your ignorance of the term – les pieds noirs were those French Algerians who returned to France after independence.

    Thirdly, in another example of your lack of knowledge, the poppy is not a British symbol; it also – among others - applies to Australians and Canadians, many of them with Irish ancestry.

    Finally I have reported your post as I believe your opening paragraph is a personal attack on me and contributes nothing to the thread.


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  • #31
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    There's that endearingly little enormous chip on the shoulder from you again, pedroeibar. Someday you might, just might, get over your self-declared British settler-colonial personal baggage in Ireland and be able to look at Irish history without being constrained by that perennial need to defend that imperialism here and elsewhere.

    Personal abuse is not allowed here. I construe point above to be directed at another user directly which is not the purpose of this forum. You have been warned previously so its a week ban now. You should really try and discuss topics without delving into the same type of rhetoric each time that badly lets you down.

    Moderator


  • #32
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    It requires a special logic to compare Imperialism (of whatever kind) with Nazism. There is no doubt Rebelheart you are special.

    The post you reported led to ban a ban for Rebelheart Pedro. You do however need to be careful if you are reporting posts for being directed 'against the person' that you are not guilty of the same yourself. In the case quoted above you are not abusive but you are getting personal so in future please resist from temptation. There is no infraction against you in this case but heed the warning. If you (or anyone else) wish to query this then do so by PM.

    Moderator.


  • #33
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    tac foley wrote: »
    I thought that, having had a flaming session from a post or two of my own in the recent few days, that I might have become inured to posts like the ones I'm seeing here.

    So I looked over on the other thread, now well over 120 pages long, and was truly horrifed at the wave of desperate hatred, revulsion and near psychopathic loathing for the British and things British, past and present, that pervades that thread.

    How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by. You must be the world's best actors, that's for sure.

    I'll certainly be giving any visit to Ireland again some very close consideration, and here's me with an Irish name from end to end.

    For those of you with your life-long hatred to keep you warm, here on THIS part of the forum, and elsewhere, note that any person from the UK reading those awful hate-filled pages will probably choose a more friendly place to visit.

    Like Afghanistan. Just like Ireland used to be in the old days that so many of you miss so badly, over there they can smile at you with a twinkle in their eye as they press the button.

    tac

    Do you ever question why people may hold these opinions that you find so repulsive? Honestly you need to back up with your horror and read a history book or 2. Hatred as you phrase it does not generally arise from nothing but yet you seem to ignore the cause. Rather you tar the masses with the expressed views of a minority. This is akin to tarring all British people with the views of the national front, a view equally ridiculous to that you express here.


  • #34
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Lest anyone be fooled into thinking that objection to the symbolism of the poppy is only associated with Irish nationalism as some on here may be assuming I quote part of Robert Fisks article from the Independent entitled "Time the poppy's wilted petals of hypocrisy were thrown away"

    Tolstoy caught the other side of this "non-meaning" of war in his critique of Napoleon's invasion of Russia. An "event took place", he wrote in 'War and Peace', "opposed to human reason and human nature.

    Millions of men perpetrated against one another such innumerable crimes, frauds, treacheries, incendiarisms and murders, as in whole centuries are not recorded in the annals of all the law courts of the world, but which those who committed them did not at the time regard as being crimes."

    It was Lewis's idea – that war was ultimately devoid of meaning – which my father was, I think, trying to capture when he described the 1914-18 conflict to me in his hospital room as "just one great waste".

    He had survived that war and outlived another and the end of the British Empire, which I suspect we have not ceased mourning – could that be really what the poppies are all about? – and even lived long enough to watch the first Gulf War on television.

    He often quoted what he believed to be the last words of Nurse Edith Cavell, shot in Brussels by the Germans for rescuing Allied soldiers behind enemy lines, words that are inscribed on her monument beside the National Gallery: "Patriotism is not enough."

    But in full, her very last words – spoken to a British chaplain before she was executed – were these: "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/robert-fisk-time-the-poppys-wilted-petals-of-hypocrisy-were-thrown-away-29740083.html

    With the likes of Jon Snow and Fisk refusing to wear the poppy I suggest more than blind obedience to the notion of this symbol is required to understand the more subtle objections than those thus far expressed.


  • #35
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Do you ever question why people may hold these opinions that you find so repulsive? Honestly you need to back up with your horror and read a history book or 2. Hatred as you phrase it does not generally arise from nothing but yet you seem to ignore the cause. Rather you tar the masses with the expressed views of a minority. This is akin to tarring all British people with the views of the national front, a view equally ridiculous to that you express here.

    Please read what I wrote again - 'How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by.'

    My father was a fighter in the War of Independence, and went to prison for his actions. He was a soldier for the Free State Army in the Civil War, and lived in the fear that any day he might have to shoot his own brother. I was a soldier, too, and spent many an unhappy day in Ireland over the years. So I don't need a lecture on what happened in the past, Sir, from you or anybody else.

    However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

    That thread is now fast approaching 200 pages, much of it making unpleasant reading for those who think that the entire Irish people are their friends.

    Unless you ban me from this site, as I know you are quite able to do, I won't be going anywhere soon, much to the annoyance of a good few posters here. I may well be the only person here who is not 100% Irish, and I have my own simple agenda. That is to get on with people in peace.

    tac


  • #36
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I think people read too much into wearing / not wearing a poppy.

    I wear it primarily because some strangers showed compassion to someone I was quite fond of. If that's their symbol I'm happy to contribute and raise some small awareness of the work they do for a few days a year.

    To a much lesser degree I wear it to commemorate other family members who served (thankfully not at the cost of their lives) in the Connaught Rangers & Irish Guards. It's very much a personal decision.

    If someone decides to interpret the wearing (or not wearing) of a poppy in a more political context, that's their problem and no one else's.


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  • #37
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Lest anyone be fooled into thinking that objection to the symbolism of the poppy is only associated with Irish nationalism as some on here may be assuming I quote part of Robert Fisks article from the Independent entitled "Time the poppy's wilted petals of hypocrisy were thrown away"

    With the likes of Jon Snow and Fisk refusing to wear the poppy I suggest more than blind obedience to the notion of this symbol is required to understand the more subtle objections than those thus far expressed.

    I take your point but only to a certain extent, because there is a huge difference between a cogent, reasoned argument such as the one put forward by Bob Fisk and the clear anti-British invective contained in the content posted (not for the first time) by several on this topic.

    I have no idea where your suggestion on ‘blind obedience to the notion of this symbol’ comes from – that is not apparent from most of the posts in this thread. I contribute to the RBL or the RNLI or the VdeP or Concern or Peter McVerry because of what they do on the charity front, not because of anything else. I no more support the British than I do the Catholic Church. That is the way it is with most people – money goes to a worthwhile cause – nothing whatsoever to do with ‘blind obedience’. My relatives who fought and survived in both wars did not have to depend on the RBL, but I am happy to contribute to it for those that need it, and to the other charities be they for sailors in distress, young homeless or the extremely needy. I respect and honour what they do.

    Maybe I misunderstand the rules of Boards but I find it strange that you see fit to quote Nurse Cavell in full - "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone" and yet at the same time the Mods have allowed rampant racism to stand untouched on this and several other threads and infractions/bans are dished out/threatened only for personal abuse.


  • #38
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    tac foley wrote: »
    Please read what I wrote again - 'How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by.'

    My father was a fighter in the War of Independence, and went to prison for his actions. He was a soldier for the Free State Army in the Civil War, and lived in the fear that any day he might have to shoot his own brother. I was a soldier, too, and spent many an unhappy day in Ireland over the years. So I don't need a lecture on what happened in the past, Sir, from you or anybody else.

    However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

    That thread is now fast approaching 200 pages, much of it making unpleasant reading for those who think that the entire Irish people are their friends.

    Unless you ban me from this site, as I know you are quite able to do, I won't be going anywhere soon, much to the annoyance of a good few posters here. I may well be the only person here who is not 100% Irish, and I have my own simple agenda. That is to get on with people in peace.

    tac


    So Irish people should not have a negative opinion of Britian but you have a chip on you shoulder about Sinn Fein?

    Most people on here dont hate individual British people but the actions of that empire had a very negative impact on Ireland. In fact the fact Britian was a colonial power caused friction with the Americians when Brittian needed aid during world war 1 and 2. There was unease aiding them particuarly considering their exploitation of countries like India where people were treated little better than slaves.


  • #39
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    So Irish people should not have a negative opinion of Britian but you have a chip on you shoulder about Sinn Fein?

    Most people on here dont hate individual British people but the actions of that empire had a very negative impact on Ireland. In fact the fact Britian was a colonial power caused friction with the Americians when Brittian needed aid during world war 1 and 2. There was unease aiding them particuarly considering their exploitation of countries like India where people were treated little better than slaves.

    I'll freely admit to being an Anglo-phile. I lived there for a few years and found them not at all bad.

    In that vein, let's not confuse history with myth. Did the colonial administration do some nasty things - yes, they did. But they also had important and beneficial impacts elsewhere in Irish society (public health, economic and trade, social etc) as well as the empire providing serious opportunities for Irishmen (and women) to earn a living at various levels. Often that living was earned at the expense of other locals and 'colonials' - and Irishmen often inflicted the same oppression on 'natives' that bridled so much at home.

    Also, lets not kid ourselves that when independence was won that somehow this island became a land of milk and honey. What followed wasn't "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities" for all, nor were the children 'cherished' except by the local clergy. In fact if anything instead of bending the knee to a monarch in London, we turned instead to bending the knee and kissing the ring of a resident of Drumcondra!

    And while we're merrily wandering away from the topic, I'll also admit to having a chip about Sinn Fein - lets not forget what they are part of, what they did and what they are trying to airbrush from history.

    ......and finally - to be utterly simplistic - as bad and all as the Brits might have been - they weren't as bad as Stalin!!!


  • #40
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I'll freely admit to being an Anglo-phile. I lived there for a few years and found them not at all bad.

    In that vein, let's not confuse history with myth. Did the colonial administration do some nasty things - yes, they did. But they also had important and beneficial impacts elsewhere in Irish society (public health, economic and trade, social etc) as well as the empire providing serious opportunities for Irishmen (and women) to earn a living at various levels. Often that living was earned at the expense of other locals and 'colonials' - and Irishmen often inflicted the same oppression on 'natives' that bridled so much at home.

    Also, lets not kid ourselves that when independence was won that somehow this island became a land of milk and honey. What followed wasn't "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities" for all, nor were the children 'cherished' except by the local clergy. In fact if anything instead of bending the knee to a monarch in London, we turned instead to bending the knee and kissing the ring of a resident of Drumcondra!

    And while we're merrily wandering away from the topic, I'll also admit to having a chip about Sinn Fein - lets not forget what they are part of, what they did and what they are trying to airbrush from history.

    ......and finally - to be utterly simplistic - as bad and all as the Brits might have been - they weren't as bad as
    Stalin!!!

    I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
    You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
    Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.


  • #41
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
    You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
    Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.

    Seriously, I think you need to take a trip around our national museums and national library......

    Up until about the middle part of the second decade of the last century, the notion that Ireland was 'occupied' was a fanciful one held by a few romantic fools.....

    Yes, empires draw from their colonies - they draw in raw materials, cultural artifacts etc and tie them into restrictive trading arrangements. That explains why, for instance, our National Museum has an Egyptian collection that extends to more than 3,000 objects! Acquired, along with thousands of other objects from Persia, India and the Far East, because of its connections with the British Museum. I must have missed the bit where we've said we're going to give them back:rolleyes:

    Never mind the fact that when you read down the list of great, good and not so good personalities who shaped the empire you see there's a lot of Irish names in there and a lot of Irish regiments with a lot of Irish farm boys.

    Let's not re-write history, just because we're embarrassed by it. And let's also acknowledge facts - Ireland's pre-independence GDP exceeded that of Britain. The ill conceived Economic War reduced us from a situation from where we were doing pretty well in terms of national wealth to one where we fell to the bottom of the pile. It was an ill conceived affair brought on by Dev's protectionists notions.

    ....and if SF raison d'etre is linked to the 'British occupation' how come they are expending so much effort to increase their representation south of the border?

    Anyway, I can clearly see where this is going so my last word on it will be to quote Casement from the letter he sent to the officer responsible for his custody before he was executed........
    “Whatever you may think of my attitude towards your Government and the Realm I would only ask you to keep one thing, in that good heart of yours – and that is that a man may fight a country and its policy and yet not hate any individual of that country . . .”


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  • #42
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
    You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
    Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.

    Final, final word.....

    You might want to consider the appropriateness of describing the systematic child abuse that characterised the first 70 or so years of the State's independent existence as a "mistake."

    I think we're well off topic now......


  • #43
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    I have no idea where your suggestion on ‘blind obedience to the notion of this symbol’ comes from – that is not apparent from most of the posts in this thread. I contribute to the RBL or the RNLI or the VdeP or Concern or Peter McVerry because of what they do on the charity front, not because of anything else. I no more support the British than I do the Catholic Church. That is the way it is with most people – money goes to a worthwhile cause – nothing whatsoever to do with ‘blind obedience’. My relatives who fought and survived in both wars did not have to depend on the RBL, but I am happy to contribute to it for those that need it, and to the other charities be they for sailors in distress, young homeless or the extremely needy. I respect and honour what they do.
    .
    Blind obedience refers to the general insistence in some quarters that people must wear the poppy, generally seen in British media for example.
    pedroeibar1 wrote: »


    Maybe I misunderstand the rules of Boards but I find it strange that you see fit to quote Nurse Cavell in full - "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone" and yet at the same time the Mods have allowed rampant racism to stand untouched on this and several other threads and infractions/bans are dished out/threatened only for personal abuse.
    I quoted Fisk if you read my post.

    In any case I don't agree with you that people should not express their opinion if it is genuinely felt on a nationalistic basis. I do not in this case censor such opinion nor should I be asked to.


  • #44
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Final, final word.....

    You might want to consider the appropriateness of describing the systematic child abuse that characterised the first 70 or so years of the State's independent existence as a "mistake."

    I think we're well off topic now......

    You are way off topic as you note, thus making your point utterly irrelevant to the topic under discussion.


  • #45
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    tac foley wrote: »
    However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

    ...

    tac

    I am not sure you grasp that there are more than Republican objectors to the poppy.

    To prove me wrong could you outline the particular objections that are widely reported on by the Channel 4 news Jon Snow.???


  • #46
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    I am not sure you grasp that there are more than Republican objectors to the poppy.

    To prove me wrong could you outline the particular objections that are widely reported on by the Channel 4 news Jon Snow.???

    If they were true Republicans they would treat those with different opinions with respect. But as we know they have hijacked Republicanism for their own ends


  • #47
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Jon Snow objects to wearing the poppy on air because of what he described as "poppy fascism."

    Incidentally, all the money raised in Ireland stays in Ireland. Sure, some of it will be used to help a few blow-in Brits, but most of it will go to help Irish citizens and their families who have a genuine need. It's Irish people helping Irish people.

    Incidentally, you don't have to wear the big "Flanders poppy" - there's a very nice (and fairly discreet) ceramic lapel pin available - a poppy superimposed and centred on a shamrock. That's the one I wear.


  • #48
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ...a poppy superimposed and centred on a shamrock. That's the one I wear.


    Now THAT's something I'd like to see. If I'd known there was such a thing, I would have worn one in memory of my grandfather.

    I must ask an Irish friend if he can find one for me sometime.

    tac


  • #49
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Paddy Harte MEP proposed this some years ago. It is somethining I would wear quite happily,like alot of Irish people I had family that served in the BA and the old IRA.The development of such a hybrid poppy should be encouraged so that we have a more Irish connection with the poppy.

    http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/poppy-shamrock-hybrid-in-honour-of-irish-war-dead-1-2099672


    Pic of Irish poppy here http://www.freewebs.com/irishregimentsofthebritisharmy/


  • #50
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Ask and ye shall receive.....

    Can be ordered online from here...

    http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/

    I got mine in the Royal Irish Fusiliers Regimental Museum in Armagh along with a "Descendant of WWI Veteran" pin.


  • #51
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Ask and ye shall receive.....

    Can be ordered online from here...

    http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/

    I got mine in the Royal Irish Fusiliers Regimental Museum in Armagh along with a "Descendant of WWI Veteran" pin.


    Done, thank you, Sir.

    tac


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