The Holocaust

Zebra3 · 07-02-2009 10:24pm #1

Serious question.

Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question?

McArmalite · 08-02-2009 9:33pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Serious question.

Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question?

Good question. According to wiki ( and I know that wiki can have it's faults but can also be very accurate ) Holocaust - " also known as haShoah (Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן) is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. "

The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine so they can carry out policies that Adolf and co. would have admired, mass murder, ethnic cleansing etc. Not saying their in his league, but I'm sure given half a chance they'd love to carry out his policies on the Palestians.

Maybe someone can produce a breakdown of the figures for the various backgrounds of the people, such as the handicapped, mentally ill, political and religious opponents as well as the numbers of Jewish killed. I believe their was up to half a million German citizens who opposed the Nazi's who perished in the camps from the early 30's to the end of the war.

Fratton Fred · 09-02-2009 9:52am

Didn't I read on a thread somewhere that percentage of the population wise, the Romas suffered worse than anyone. I kind of look at it like this, did it heppen? Without a doubt. Has there been exploitation of it to meet own ends? I would say there has. Are the numbers accurate? Probably not, but does it matter? Does it matter if 4million people died or 10 million, it was still the most henous thing the world has ever seen.

Zebra3 · 09-02-2009 3:18pm

Thanks for the posts lads.

The reasons why I posted the question was I out a couple of weeks ago with some friends (mix of Irish and mainland western Europeans) and the subject of holocaust denial came up.

Of course what happened was horrendous, but I feel the laws in place in Germany and Austria are wrong. I also feel that what most people know about the holocaust, i.e. 6,000,000 jews were murdered, is in itself a form of holocaust denial/misinformation if indeed non-jewish murders in the death camps are included as part of the holocaust.

Does anyone know how those laws in Germany and Austria work? Do the governments just say:"here's the official spiel, anyone says different they're going off to jail!"?

hivizman · 10-02-2009 12:44am

This article in Wikipedia summarises the main legal provisions relating to Holocaust denial in different countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 12:45am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

No holocaust denial laws do not deny people the right to investigate and research and review the holocaust, but they do protect against people like Richard Williamson who said that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust and no one was gassed. This is a gross negation of the facts. However if someone were to provide compelling evidence that the total number of people who died in the holocaust was 4 million or even lower (I don't know how low, and obviously the burden of evidence would become greater as the figure descends) then they could not be accused of holocaust denial.

hivizman · 10-02-2009 1:13am

If you are interested in Holocaust denial, you probably have these references anyway, but in case you don't, the key book is Deborah Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (Penguin, 1994). This was the book that led to the libel action against Lipstadt by David Irving, who denied Lipstadt's suggestion that he was a Holocaust denier. Irving was demolished in the court hearing, largely thanks to the evidence of Professor Richard Evans (now Regius Professor of History at Cambridge University). The book on the trial by Evans Telling Lies About Hitler: The Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial (Verso: 2002) is well worth reading (as is Evans's stunning 3-volume history The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power and The Third Reich at War).

An American historian who has analysed how the "idea" of the Holocaust emerged (some might say "was constructed") in the years after the Second World War is Peter Novick, in The Holocaust and Collective Memory (published in the USA as The Holocaust in American Life). Novick is interested in how a wide range of disparate events were linked together under the collective label "the Holocaust", how the emphasis on the extermination of the Jews perhaps downplays the other groups who were systematically killed, and how "the Holocaust" came to replace "the Final Solution" as the key term.

IRISH RAIL · 10-02-2009 1:19am

McArmalite wrote: »

The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine so they can carry out policies that Adolf and co. would have admired, mass murder, ethnic cleansing etc. Not saying their in his league, but I'm sure given half a chance they'd love to carry out his policies on the Palestians.
.

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 1:24am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?

Zebra3 · 10-02-2009 2:37am

Thanks for the info on the denial part of things folks, but can people answer or give their opinions on my original question.

IRISH RAIL · 10-02-2009 3:29am

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 10:33am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Thanks for the info on the denial part of things folks, but can people answer or give their opinions on my original question.

The Holocaust refers to the final solution jewish exclusive. The word holocaust can be used to describe the attempted extermination of more than one peoples. Personally I prefer to use the word holocaust, I don't believe that any one group who died in the concentration camps should be preferenced in the way we remember them.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?

neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

Prove it or you're trolling.

Zebra3 · 10-02-2009 3:54pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

No idea how much help, if any, the IRA gave the Germans, but it would have paled into insignificance when compared with the help the British gave them when they handed over the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia to the nazis.

10-02-2009 7:09pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

The Germans hardly told the IRA "oh btw, we're killing all the inferior races, are you okay with that?" No-one really knew about the Holocaust until the camps were liberated.

cherrypicker555 · 11-02-2009 12:41am

994 wrote: »

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

The Germans hardly told the IRA "oh btw, we're killing all the inferior races, are you okay with that?" No-one really knew about the Holocaust until the camps were liberated.

The crystal nicht was shown in cinemas in 38. It was known fromm 33 that the Nazis sent trade unions, gays etc to concentration camps.

IRA commander Frank Ryan worked for a nazi dept,whos leader was later hanged for exterminating serbs.

Operation kathleen was the Nazi plan to invade Ireland and use the IRA as quslings, but Nazi spies who landed in Ireland found the IRA to be incompetent drunks.

cherrypicker555 · 11-02-2009 12:48am

Zebra3 wrote: »

No idea how much help, if any, the IRA gave the Germans, but it would have paled into insignificance when compared with the help the British gave them when they handed over the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia to the nazis.

Sudetenland was previously part of Germany, French Prime Minister Daladiert was also involved in the Munich pact. It was an attempt to avoid a world war.

How can this be compared to IRA quislings helping the Nazis in plans to invade Ireland ? ie operation green and kathleen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Kathleen

. "It decided that British naval superiority made such an invasion impossible"

hivizman · 12-02-2009 12:18am

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Sudetenland was previously part of Germany, French Prime Minister Daladier was also involved in the Munich pact. It was an attempt to avoid a world war.

Sudetenland was never part of Germany. It was part of the Kingdom of Bohemia, which from 1526 was a possession of the Habsburgs, and later part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Czechoslovakia was created out of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia after the First World War. The area known as the Sudetenland was largely, though not entirely, populated by ethnic Germans, who had been settling there since the 13th century.

cherrypicker555 · 12-02-2009 12:29am

hivizman wrote: »

Sudetenland was never part of Germany. It was part of the Kingdom of Bohemia, which from 1526 was a possession of the Habsburgs, and later part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Czechoslovakia was created out of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia after the First World War. The area known as the Sudetenland was largely, though not entirely, populated by ethnic Germans, who had been settling there since the 13th century.

Ok it was part of a place which is now part of what is now called Germany.:rolleyes:

hivizman · 12-02-2009 12:41am

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Ok it was part of a place which is now part of what is now called Germany.:rolleyes:

No, the Sudetenland remained part of Czechoslovakia, though purged of its ethnic German population, after the Second World War. And although Czechoslovakia has split into the Czech and Slovak Republics, the Sudetenland is still not part of anything that is now called Germany.

cherrypicker555 · 12-02-2009 1:10am

hivizman wrote: »

No, the Sudetenland remained part of Czechoslovakia, though purged of its ethnic German population, after the Second World War. And although Czechoslovakia has split into the Czech and Slovak Republics, the Sudetenland is still not part of anything that is now called Germany.

Did i say it was, go back to sleep :rolleyes:

McArmalite · 12-02-2009 9:44pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

In my post #2, I said “The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine “. But it looks like this thread has also been hijacked by a zionist to divert discussion on the make up of those killed in the Final Solution into a discussion on the IRA alleged support of Hitler :rolleyes::). Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail

?? ?

As absurd a discussion as you could get, the reality was that Frank Ryan and a few IRA men made overtures to the Germans for weapons etc to fight a just and honourable cause, the british occupation forces in Ireland. But if Irish Rail and our unionist friend cherrypicker are anything to go by, you’d think the IRA had been the SS and camp guards who rounded up the Roma’s, political opponents, Jews, mentally and physically ill and forced them into the gas chambers. As brianthebard stated " Prove it or you're trolling ".

McArmalite · 12-02-2009 10:09pm

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

The crystal nicht was shown in cinemas in 38. It was known fromm 33 that the Nazis sent trade unions, gays etc to concentration camps.

Crystal nacht was a terrible pogrom where nazi mobs openly aided by the German police and army attacked and looted Jewish homes. But I don't know why a unionist would point an accusing finger at the nazi's, as unionist mobs, openly aided by the british police and army attacked and looted Catholic homes in terrible pogroms also ??

IRA commander Frank Ryan worked for a nazi dept,whos leader was later hanged for exterminating serbs.

To quote brianthebard again - " Prove it or you're trolling ".

Operation kathleen was the Nazi plan to invade Ireland and use the IRA as quslings, but Nazi spies who landed in Ireland found the IRA to be incompetent drunks......How can this be compared to IRA quislings helping the Nazis in plans to invade Ireland ? ie operation green and kathleen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Kathleen

This particuliar article on wiki on the so called " Plan Kathleen " is a complete piece of fiction, probably written by one of our lovely unionist friends no doubt. It can't be traced through four authoritive studies into German Intelligence ops in Ireland, namely -
The Secret Army: The IRA 1916-1979 - J. Bowyer Bell (1971)
Irish Secrets - German Espionage in wartime Ireland 1939-1945 - Mark M. Hall (2003)
The Shamrock and the Swastika - German Espionage in Ireland in WW2 - Carolle J. Carter (1977)
Spies in Ireland - Enno Stephan (1963)

It's just unionist fiction.

"It decided that British naval superiority made such an invasion impossible"

British naval superiority may well have made such an invasion impossible. But the unionists wouldn't know much about WW2 anyway, as they refused to be conscripted as their feet were too sore from all the orange marching

:D.

Now, any chance we could get back to the orginal post " Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question? "

IRISH RAIL · 12-02-2009 10:22pm

McArmalite wrote: »

In my post #2, I said “The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine “. But it looks like this thread has also been hijacked by a zionist to divert discussion on the make up of those killed in the Final Solution into a discussion on the IRA alleged support of Hitler :rolleyes::). Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail ?? ?

As absurd a discussion as you could get, the reality was that Frank Ryan and a few IRA men made overtures to the Germans for weapons etc to fight a just and honourable cause, the british occupation forces in Ireland. But if Irish Rail and our unionist friend cherrypicker are anything to go by, you’d think the IRA had been the SS and camp guards who rounded up the Roma’s, political opponents, Jews, mentally and physically ill and forced them into the gas chambers. As brianthebard stated " Prove it or you're trolling ".

some illogicol posting above,
as we can see it is an interesting point on the subject of the Holocaust. If this were an Italian thread I could ask the same thing of Italian complacency in the Holocaust.
Are you worried your republican image image may be tarnished?

as for Brian the Bard read what I wrote again I wasnt making a statemenat that had to be "proved"
I asked a question now for the back to school lesson for some people here,

You dont have to prove anything when you ask a question.
It just makes you look bad when you try and project me as a troll when people can see your agenda.

IRISH RAIL · 12-02-2009 10:26pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail ?? ?
QUOTE]

You tell me the IRA never cared about religion or politics when they butchered people.

as for the Israeli rail snipe did you stay up all night thinking of that mr AR15

Zebra3 · 13-02-2009 12:35am

Why are people trying to change the thread which is about The Holocaust into something to do with the IRA?

IRISH RAIL · 13-02-2009 1:20am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why are people trying to change the thread which is about The Holocaust into something to do with the IRA?

I asked a question about IRA spport for Hitler and the Holocaust.

Shutuplaura · 13-02-2009 6:50am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I asked a question about IRA spport for Hitler and the Holocaust.

The IRA didn't support the holocaust and its pointless trying to imply that it did. The IRA tried to get arms and assistance from germany, which is not the same thing. The Stern gang in palestine, a jewish Zionist group which later became one of the founding organisations of the IDF was also seeking assistance from the Nazi's at his time. Now its quite clear they were not supporting the holocaust either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities

Joey the lips · 13-02-2009 8:44am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

Irish rail your information is incorrect- Sorry to disappoint. The goverment at the time which was Eammon Dev helped hitler but for different reasons than you mention

1. Anybody ho was against england ireland supported
2. Although it was pointed out later, none of the world believed the extermination was on the level it was or any where near it. The eastern europeans supported hitler in his quest( This is fact not fiction)
3. Hitler had planned to take over ireland in an operation called "OPERATION GREEN" do you honestly think that the F/F goverment would have spoke to him at the time if they new this

and finally
4. Ireland relationship with Germany extended to periods far before hitler, As far back as 1800-1900's we have been getting help from germany. Most famous was when roger casement( a true republician and not a murderer) was caught by british forses with guns on the asgard

Its very important you consider this

Hitler and his henchmen were murdering [EMAIL="B@@tards"]B@@tards[/EMAIL] and there is no doubt in my mond that if the vatican at the time refused to step in an condem it, ireland who's morals came from the vatican would not have.

mountainyman · 13-02-2009 9:21am

Most Europeans were anti semites before the holocaust. Anti semitism is a profoundly important part of european culture.

I don't understand Irish Rail's reference to the Italians either by the way. While the Italian state was pro Hitler it was not anti semitic until 1938. The Italians didn't run death camps and it wasn't until the Italians surrendered that the Germans began shipping large numbers of people to the death camps.

Is there some claim being made that state's which purusued their own interests in conjunction with the German state's bear some responsibilty for what happened to German and Eastern European Jews in the 1940s ( a concerted campaign of cultural, economic and social destruction accompanied bya very successful campaign of mass murder).

It would be necessary to show that the people and rulers of these states knew what the germans were doing and also that they knew it was different form ordinary traditional anti semitism.

Most european jews did not initially understand that nazi exterminationism was different from traditional anti-semitism, so it unrealistic to expect the IRA to have understood this.

By the way in response to the originla question which we should now address.

[1] The holocaust refers to the mass nmurder of between 4.5 and 6 million Europan Jews in the 1940s

[2] It does not refer to the mass murder of gypsies this is called the Porajmos.

[3] It does NOT refer to the suffering of many people in Eastern Europe which did not take place in the death camps.

[4] I would say however that it does refer to mass killings like those in Riga and Tallinn and to the activities of the special intervention groups.

The holocaust is central to the legitimacy of the Israeli state. However just because the Israeli state indulges in war crimes does not in some way make the destruction of European jewry in the 1940s less of a crime or less tragic. In fact the jews are infinitely better masters than the Nazis. The fact that I have heard people making this comparison in order to defend Israel shows how far the Israeli state has slipped into an absolutely foul moral bankruptcy. Worse in my opinion is the fact that there are almost no voices of Jewish dissent. The great Jewish virtues of mercy and empathy have been paralysed by Isreal's lack of virtue.

As for the sad fate of the Palestinians it would be a footnote in history now if their suffering wasn't useful for the governing elites of the Arab world. Perhaps the fate of the Jews is to be reassimilated back into the semitic world (over the very long term). If so that will be the western world's loss.

But I don't think the Jews can be blamed for not wanting to live under the rule of the Hashemites, Mubarak, Hamas or the Assad's.

sorry for going on so long. I am in work too early.

Joey the lips · 13-02-2009 9:30am

mountainyman wrote: »

Most Europeans were anti semites before the holocaust. Anti semitism is a profoundly important part of european culture...........

.

Brilliant wish I could have said it better. The holocaust is mostly linked to the jews but more than 200000 political prisoners and russian pow died along with them

Not including the amount of innocent the germans killed while traveling through russia.

partly why the russians were so bitter later on

mountainyman · 13-02-2009 9:39am

The Russians got their revenge. The Jews didn't and I think to some extent they are expiating what the Germans did to them by theri crimes against the Arabs.

This is a common phenomenon. I have heard that the French in Algeria were doings something similar (again against the Arabs!) and of course the holocaust itself is a response to Germany's hum iliation at being beaten by the french (though there was a very old belief in Germany that the creation of Utopia would be accompanied by mass slaughter of Jews.

mountainyman · 13-02-2009 9:58am

Joey the lips wrote: »

2. Although it was pointed out later, none of the world believed the extermination was on the level it was or any where near it. The eastern europeans supported hitler in his quest( This is fact not fiction).

In fairness there were many Eastern Europeans helped Jews. There was an underground organisation calle Zagota :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota They saved 50,000 Jews.
If the puppet states that the Nazis set up were anti semitic this is because only an anti semitic puppet state would be allowed by the Nazis. It proves nothing.

If many Eastern European Christians hated jews and were happy to sell them out to the nazis there were others who were willing to risk their lives to save Jews.

In Ukraine, Poland and Byelorussia any suspicion of helping Jews and you and your family would be killed.

Joey the lips wrote: »

and there is no doubt in my mond that if the vatican at the time refused to step in an condem it, ireland who's morals came from the vatican would not have.

The Vatican condemned German Anti semitism from 1937.

Pope Pius XI wrote:

11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket"

BossArky · 13-02-2009 11:36am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Serious question.

Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question?

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

Stick to the topic Irish Rail. If you want to take the conversation elsewhere please start a new thread.

ilkhanid · 14-03-2009 8:35pm

As to the topic of the IRA and the Nazis, suffice to say that if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. The facts about Krystallnacht,the first concentration camps,the Nuremberg laws etc were well known by then, why else were left-wing elements in the IRA denouncing fascism? Did the Irish members of the International brigades think they were going off on a skite? The IRA knew the kind of people they were looking to for help,and they didn't care one whit.
"The holocaust is mostly linked to the jews but more than 200000 political prisoners and russian pow died along with them"
Although there is a large margin of error here, roughly a million political prisoners,mentally ill and disabled,Romanies, homosexuals and miscellaneous died in concentration camps,three and a half million Russian POWs died in German hands. Reprisals in occupied Europe and deaths by deliberate and indiscriminate actions including starvation caused by the extraction of food stocks briing the toll up even higher. Of these deaths the word 'Holocaust' refers only to the Jewish deaths by customary usage. Most historians describe the holocaust as the Jewish component of these acts.

mrtaylor1981 · 15-03-2009 5:03pm

ilkhanid wrote: »

As to the topic of the IRA and the Nazis, suffice to say that if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. The facts about Krystallnacht,the first concentration camps,the Nuremberg laws etc were well known by then, why else were left-wing elements in the IRA denouncing fascism? Did the Irish members of the International brigades think they were going off on a skite? The IRA knew the kind of people they were looking to for help,and they didn't care one whit.
"The holocaust is mostly linked to the jews but more than 200000 political prisoners and russian pow died along with them"
Although there is a large margin of error here, roughly a million political prisoners,mentally ill and disabled,Romanies, homosexuals and miscellaneous died in concentration camps,three and a half million Russian POWs died in German hands. Reprisals in occupied Europe and deaths by deliberate and indiscriminate actions including starvation caused by the extraction of food stocks briing the toll up even higher. Of these deaths the word 'Holocaust' refers only to the Jewish deaths by customary usage. Most historians describe the holocaust as the Jewish component of these acts.

Yes the IRA were quite aware of the Nazi's and concentration camps. Ofcourse they are like the Germans who lived through the period and denied they had any knowledge.

mrtaylor1981 · 15-03-2009 5:10pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Crystal nacht was a terrible pogrom where nazi mobs openly aided by the German police and army attacked and looted Jewish homes. But I don't know why a unionist would point an accusing finger at the nazi's, as unionist mobs, openly aided by the british police and army attacked and looted Catholic homes in terrible pogroms also ??

To quote brianthebard again - " Prove it or you're trolling ".

This particuliar article on wiki on the so called " Plan Kathleen " is a complete piece of fiction, probably written by one of our lovely unionist friends no doubt. It can't be traced through four authoritive studies into German Intelligence ops in Ireland, namely -
The Secret Army: The IRA 1916-1979 - J. Bowyer Bell (1971)
Irish Secrets - German Espionage in wartime Ireland 1939-1945 - Mark M. Hall (2003)
The Shamrock and the Swastika - German Espionage in Ireland in WW2 - Carolle J. Carter (1977)
Spies in Ireland - Enno Stephan (1963)

It's just unionist fiction.

British naval superiority may well have made such an invasion impossible. But the unionists wouldn't know much about WW2 anyway, as they refused to be conscripted as their feet were too sore from all the orange marching :D.

Now, any chance we could get back to the orginal post " Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question? "

" But the unionists wouldn't know much about WW2 anyway, as they refused to be conscripted as their feet were too sore from all the orange marching ". If the unionists had not played their part, Mr. de Valera and the Irish government would have had to contend with the German and later the Japanese representatives to their heart’s content Mr. SmartAlec.

junder · 15-03-2009 9:20pm

McArmalite wrote: »

In my post #2, I said “The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine “. But it looks like this thread has also been hijacked by a zionist to divert discussion on the make up of those killed in the Final Solution into a discussion on the IRA alleged support of Hitler :rolleyes::). Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail ?? ?

As absurd a discussion as you could get, the reality was that Frank Ryan and a few IRA men made overtures to the Germans for weapons etc to fight a just and honourable cause, the british occupation forces in Ireland. But if Irish Rail and our unionist friend cherrypicker are anything to go by, you’d think the IRA had been the SS and camp guards who rounded up the Roma’s, political opponents, Jews, mentally and physically ill and forced them into the gas chambers. As brianthebard stated " Prove it or you're trolling ".

Arthur griffth was a well recorde anti-semiti, the leader of the IRA of the time died on a german u-boat and just why did old dev said a letter of condolance when hitler died, moreover why do you choose to call yourself after a weapon that was put to good use killing innocent people in northern ireland, you should be acreful about pointing fingers, and if the unionists never took part in the 2nd world war howcome Lord Molyneux was amoung the first soliders to enter belgan belson

ckristo2 · 17-03-2009 1:39am

Good evening Friends. The I.R.A. always employed the saying my enemy's enemy is my friend. Irish Nationaliss fought with the Boers in South Africa in 1900 and sought help from The German Kaiser in World War I. Using the Nazis as a kind of moral fulcrum, so whoever supported them is the worst in the world displays an ignorance or the period. Apart from the I.R.A. who were trying to be opportunistic (but achieved nothing from it) People sympathised with Hitler in the 30's and 40's because they were afraid of Communism not because they believed in National Socialism. Yes Zionists use the Holocaust and it is an irony so shocking that some of the Israeli soldiers who bombed and gassed infants in Gaza last January were probably the grandchildren of Concentration camp survivors.

ilkhanid · 17-03-2009 2:34pm

"...so whoever supported them is the worst in the world displays an ignorance or the period." Many of the people who supported them were pretty bad. One only has to see the way they behaved when that Nazis handed power to them. The IRA would have been no better if they had had the chance.
"People sympathised with Hitler in the 30's and 40's because they were afraid of Communism not because they believed in National Socialism. " And because many of them were anti-democratic and anti-semitic in most cases. Look at the relish with which the Nazi quislings turned on the Jews when that were given the opportunity by their German masters.

DublinDes · 20-03-2009 8:30pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why are people trying to change the thread which is about The Holocaust into something to do with the IRA?

Because they have a Israeli/unionist agenda to drag the topic off in a different direction. Even the moderator BossArky asks people to stop dragging the agenda off in post #33 but still ilkhanid ( twice ), mrtaylor1981, junder try to turn the post into something about the IRA and not the subject the holocaust.
I have seen this before, it's where someone does not like the critical nature of the discussion, so they drag it off into a debate about the IRA - when the IRA have zero to do with the part of history trying to be discussed.

McArmalite · 21-03-2009 3:39pm

DublinDes wrote: »

Because they have a Israeli/unionist agenda to drag the topic off in a different direction. Even the moderator BossArky asks people to stop dragging the agenda off in post #33 but still ilkhanid ( twice ), mrtaylor1981, junder try to turn the post into something about the IRA and not the subject the holocaust.
I have seen this before, it's where someone does not like the critical nature of the discussion, so they drag it off into a debate about the IRA - when the IRA have zero to do with the part of history trying to be discussed.

Sure thing DublinDes, we have seen this before. Whenever any discussion invovled the mildest criticism of britain, e.g. the Famine, 1798, Cromwell etc, on would come a few unionists with " the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " etc, etc, when the IRA had nothing whatsoever to do with the period of history been discussed, when they didn't even exist until centuries later. And all this, when the wrongs of the IRA were but a tiny fraction of those perpetrated by britian - and that's not just in Ireland. But it was all about wrecking the thread if it was been critical of their beloved britain.

Not trying to tell BossArky what to do, but I'd advise he should watch out for this unionist tatic of destroying any discussion that is even mildly critical of britain with the IRA did this, the IRA did that etc, etc, etc. as 15/18 months ago, they nearly had this forum destroyed.

Neutronale · 23-11-2013 8:46pm

junder wrote: »

Arthur griffth was a well recorde anti-semiti, the leader of the IRA of the time died on a german u-boat and just why did old dev said a letter of condolance when hitler died, moreover why do you choose to call yourself after a weapon that was put to good use killing innocent people in northern ireland, you should be acreful about pointing fingers, and if the unionists never took part in the 2nd world war howcome Lord Molyneux was amoung the first soliders to enter belgan belson

Did Molyneaux ever talk about the gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen?

boomchicawawa · 23-11-2013 10:41pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Did Molyneaux ever talk about the gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen?

I'm confused. Are you asking this question of a poster from five years ago or are you fishing for a reaction from present members about evidence of gas chambers ?

Reekwind · 23-11-2013 11:24pm

boomchicawawa wrote: »

I'm confused. Are you asking this question of a poster from five years ago or are you fishing for a reaction from present members about evidence of gas chambers ?

I'm guessing the latter. Although it could just be a complete coincidence that the poster in question has recently been banned from AH after engaging in a spot Holocaust denial

boomchicawawa · 23-11-2013 11:29pm

Yes, a complete coincidence no doubt :rolleyes:

boomchicawawa · 24-11-2013 12:01am

As this thread is about the holocaust. I think this info may be of interest to some. I have a file of 'tapping' documents from 1944. That is, conversations of German POWs who were secretly recorded by the British and then transcribed. There are apparently thousands of these documents, I only have one file (WO208/4138) which consists of over 800 pages. It makes for compelling reading. There is a book based on this type of files, 'Soldaten'-( Harold Welzer, Sonke Neitzel)

Here is one such conversation:

Leutnant Simianer (7/GR 979, 271) captured near Maltot 23 July 1944
Leutnant 19y (HQ 77ID) Captured near Pepiers 18 July1944

Simianer: To think of what the SS did at Simferopol, the things I saw there!

19y: Were you in the Crimea?

Simianer: In 1943,they shot forty thousand Jews, men women, children and all! They had to dig their own graves first. It was like this: about a thousand of them were shot every day. They had to dig a large hole first of all. They shovelled earth until 12 o clock and then about two hundred were shot; then another two hundred were shot, and then another two hundred, six hundred altogether. Then the remaining four hundred shovelled earth onto them and at the same time they dug another grave for themselves by 7o clock. When they had been shot the next lot had to come and shovel earth on them. (WO208/4138-p586)

Its worth noting that this was recorded in 1944, some ten months before the end of the war and was not published as Allied propaganda. This was the reality for Jews in the territories occupied by the Nazi's, their only 'crime' was to be Jewish. A shameful stain in the long history and man's inhumanity to man IMO.

Neutronale · 24-11-2013 6:03pm

boomchicawawa wrote: »

I'm confused. Are you asking this question of a poster from five years ago or are you fishing for a reaction from present members about evidence of gas chambers ?

Whatever, just thought I'd ask

Neutronale · 24-11-2013 6:04pm

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm guessing the latter. Although it could just be a complete coincidence that the poster in question has recently been banned from AH after engaging in a spot Holocaust denial

Thats the funny thing about censorship, it doesnt make the questions go away, just makes it curiouser and curiouser

Neutronale · 24-11-2013 6:07pm

boomchicawawa wrote: »

As this thread is about the holocaust. I think this info may be of interest to some. I have a file of 'tapping' documents from 1944. That is, conversations of German POWs who were secretly recorded by the British and then transcribed. There are apparently thousands of these documents, I only have one file (WO208/4138) which consists of over 800 pages. It makes for compelling reading. There is a book based on this type of files, 'Soldaten'-( Harold Welzer, Sonke Neitzel)

Here is one such conversation:

Leutnant Simianer (7/GR 979, 271) captured near Maltot 23 July 1944
Leutnant 19y (HQ 77ID) Captured near Pepiers 18 July1944

Simianer: To think of what the SS did at Simferopol, the things I saw there!

19y: Were you in the Crimea?

Simianer: In 1943,they shot forty thousand Jews, men women, children and all! They had to dig their own graves first. It was like this: about a thousand of them were shot every day. They had to dig a large hole first of all. They shovelled earth until 12 o clock and then about two hundred were shot; then another two hundred were shot, and then another two hundred, six hundred altogether. Then the remaining four hundred shovelled earth onto them and at the same time they dug another grave for themselves by 7o clock. When they had been shot the next lot had to come and shovel earth on them. (WO208/4138-p586)

Its worth noting that this was recorded in 1944, some ten months before the end of the war and was not published as Allied propaganda. This was the reality for Jews in the territories occupied by the Nazi's, their only 'crime' was to be Jewish. A shameful stain in the long history and man's inhumanity to man IMO.

You think this is genuine?

who the fug · 24-11-2013 6:15pm

Neutronale wrote: »

You think this is genuine?

well I do

boomchicawawa · 24-11-2013 6:22pm

PM me and I'll send the original or if anyone can help me to post it here for all to see I'd be more than happy to show all...... why so incredulous ? Anyone can access these documents from the British Archives. Go to their website and put in that reference number. I always put references on my posts if I want to back up my opinions. lol

The Holocaust

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