Padraig Pearse

1916 has been written about extensively and factually we know what happened.But what type of a man was Pearse - his behavior and what did others think of him.

A thread has started on Bulmer Hobson and that gives some idea of what he was like.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055602801

CDfm wrote: »

If you scroll down to page 18 & 19 here you will see a copy of Hobsons signed statement on this to th Bureau of Military History from 1948.

http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/3.2.1.pdf

If I am not mistaken Hobson obtained the letters( written by Pearse) and donated them to the National Archive.

A possible reason for Pearses behaviour was that he was very short of money and hoped to raise 10,000 dollars from his 1913 Lecture Tour which Hobson was very influential in arrangeing.He got 3,000 dollars.

Given that they were both raising funds from the same sources Pearse treated him as the competition.

I reckon Hobson had a legitimate reason to dislike and feel agrieved as he had stepped in and helped another nationalist educator.

That is how it appears to me.

Mairin1978 wrote: »

Yep, I've been through all those letters whilst doing research for my novel. I wonder how Hobson got his hands on those letters. No doubt, Joe McGarrity and John Devoy must have handed those over to him. Pearse really was a fast learner when it came to intrigue. Hobson was a very honest and straightforward man, which in the end worked against him. Pearse and McDermott were schemers. Hobson never went behind anyone's back. It's really heartbreaking that Hobson's friends turned against him. Countess Markiewicz, whom he brought into the Sinn Fein movement, later accused him of having done so only to annoy Griffiths. Kathleen Clarke accused him of having used Daly, her firstborn, to manipulate his way into the Clarke family, which is ridiculous. He showed so much kindness to so many people on so many occasions, and every time this kindness blew up in his face.

Just to put it in comtext here is a Pearse timelime - from when Patrick & Willie inherited a very sucessful stone and ecclesiastical monument business in 1900 until 1916.

Chronology of Pádraic Pearse

Plays, Poems, Short Stories

Essays and Lectures

1879 : born Dublin to Irish mother and English father 1893: began learning Irish October 1896: joined Gaelic League which was only three years old, attended the Central branch 1896: became pupil-teacher at Christian Brothers School, Westland Row, Dublin June 1898: sat Matriculation examination of the Royal University; later that year began private study for two years towards the B.A. degree (attended University College Dublin for part of the third); also studied at the same time at Trinity College Dublin for King's Inns Summer 1898: co-opted to the Executive Committee of the Gaelic League; first visit to Aran 1899: taught a weekly class in Irish in the then Jesuit University College Dublin; James Joyce was one of his pupils for a short time. Later taught at Alexandra College, CBS Westland Row and was examiner in Irish history at Clongowes College September 1900: father died, Pearse and his brother Willie left the thriving stone-carving business which was renamed Pearse & Sons June 1901: took final exams at the Royal University and at King's Inns; awarded 2nd class B.A. in modern languages (Irish, English, French) and B.L.; called to the Bar
March 1903: became editor of An Claidheamh Soluis (journal of the Gaelic League): held this position until late in 1909 1905: took his only case as barrister, acted for the Gaelic League; Poll an Piobaire (The Piper's Cave) published 1905 June: visited Belgium to examine the continental system of education in a bilingual country; this visit formed the basis of nearly fifty articles and editorials 1906: writing as Colm Ó Conaire published prose poems 1907: Íosagán agus Sgéalta Eile (Little Jesus and other Stories) published 1908 September: opened school St Enda's (Scoil Éanna) at Cullenswood House, Rathmines, Dublin; St Enda's finally closed in 1935 1909 December: poem 'A Mhic Bhig na gCleas' (Little Lad of the Tricks) written 1910: Pearse & Sons dissolved; St Enda's moved to The Hermitage, Rathfarnham; St Ita's school for girls founded. Got into debt due to over-expansion of schools; supported, with his brother, their mother and two sisters 1912: An Rí (The King) produced 1913 November 11: Irish Volunteers' first meeting at which Pearse attended: a non-political organization 1913 December: swore the oath of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, infiltrated the Irish Volunteers 1914 February 8: left Ireland from Cóbh for America to raise funds for St Enda's; returned in May 1914: during the summer the Volunteers received arms from Erksine Childers' yacht; Pearse stored some of these in St Enda's 1914 December: appointed director of military organization in Volunteers 1915 March 10: appointed commandant unattached to any battalion; involved in drilling and exercising troops 1915 August 1: gave oration at O'Donovan Rossa graveside in Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin 1915 September: appointed to the eleven-man Supreme Council of the IRB 1916 April: preparations became intense for rising on Easter Sunday; Pearse issued "General Orders" for manoeuvres on 3 April 1916 April 25 (Easter Monday): walked from Liberty Hall with James Connolly to the General Post Office with soldiers; occupied GPO for five days; was one of seven who signed the Proclamation of Independence 1916 April 28: issued manifesto, signed as P.H. Pearse Commandant General, Commanding-in-Chief, the Army of the Irish Republic and President of the Provisional Government 1916 April 29 (Friday): unconditional surrender of GPO and Provisional forces to the British Army; taken to Arbour Hill Barracks, moved to Richmond Barracks for court-martial 1916 May 3: killed by firing-squad 3.30 am, as was his brother Willie; both buried in quick lime in Arbour Hill

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/pearse.html

Now between 1908 and 1910 the once succssful business had been liquidated to subsidise Patricks school business.

It seems to me Pearses manner with dealing with people like the Church, local authorities etc.

All the kinds of people that he needed for the sucess of th stone business and the school.

That does not take away from his achievements and in no way am I questioning his patriotism

My grandfather who fought in 1916 would have viewed him as a poet. In West Cork , I don't think blood sacrifice was a popular idea but he also said that the British/anglo Irish ascendency would not have given up power volunterally.

A lot of people were upset about a Home Rule not becoming a reality in 1913 despite the Home Rule Act.

They saw all these men going to War and fighting Germany and the casualties. So maybe that put armed revoloution up the agenda and war was in the air.

Mairin1978 wrote: »

Has anyone read "A Dark Day on the Blaskets"? It's probably the only book that explores the relationship of Pearse and Eveleen Nicholl in depth. I live in the US, where this book was not released. I found it by accident on Amazon.uk.co. A truly eye-opening read.

Very interesting Mairin1978. Here is a review of it on Amazon, as the contributor states " her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life ". Though obviously the book is primarily about her, it seems to give a more humane insight into Pearse, instead of those who are quite clearly hostile and openly have an agenda to turn him into a monster such as the usual culprits Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Meyers etc

" This book is one of the very few accounts of the life (and death) of Éibhlín Nic Niocaill, a brilliant, early 20th Century Irish language activist, writer and poet who was the love interest of the young Irish revolutionary, Pádraig Mac Piarais (Padraig Pearse). She was in the vanguard of the emergence of women into Irish society and politics on an equal footing with men and her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life leading to his own premature death) but also the Irish language and women's movements in Ireland as a whole. "

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0863223370/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Very interesting Mairin1978. Here is a review of it on Amazon, as the contributor states " her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life ". Though obviously the book is primarily about her, it seems to give a more humane insight into Pearse, instead of those who are quite clearly hostile and openly have an agenda to turn him into a monster such as the usual culprits Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Meyers etc

I don't know if anyone ever regarded Pearse as a Monster. Edwards certainly did not portray him that way. Monster is a strong word. One doesn't need to be a monster to be make bad decisions that put more than one person in danger.

Denerick wrote: »

Pearse is a founding father of the Republic (And most certainly the Irish Sibyl); hence he is immune to criticism. This is the unfortunate reality of certain mindsets.

Gosh, nobody is immune to criticism. In fact, people should be more careful about elevating random individuals to the ranks of saints. First they praise them and then they tear them down. That's what happened to Clarke and Hobson. Clarke said: "I love Hobson like I love my own son", and then, when Hobson did something Clarke disagreed with, he accused him of being an informant.

Denerick wrote: »

To be fair I wasn't talking about you. You clearly haven't canonised the man, like some here have.

Does that really seem like constructive posting on your part?

That wasn't the point you were making and you know it, you were making sly digs at other users.

Patrick Pearse seems to put lots of people thru and emotional wringer and like I say, as a guy I do not particularly like him as a man.

Just to recap.

A few issues do come up.

Did he really believe in blood sacrifice ?

Was he honest , I wouldn't trust him with money but as a member of a movement trustworthy and loyal to his collagues?

How much was he in control or not of the 1916 Rising. ? Was he a good leader ?

Was he a democrat ?

CDfm wrote: »

Did he really believe in blood sacrifice ?

this is a difficult question and one thats made a lot of by biographers of pearse and historians of the time. I understand the situation to be such that he had recently joined the IRB and was in his first revolutionary flush, but that might not be the case. Connolly ate him out of it (metaphorically) for making such comments and he never said or wrote something as crass or silly again. Apart from his IRB membership though Pearse was probably allowing himself to get swept up into the continent wide ideas of blood sacrifice which had been growing for at least two years before WWI. Many believed that a blood sacrifice of some kind was needed to renew their countries, and not necessarily to create a revolution but just as something that was expected.

How much was he in control or not of the 1916 Rising. ? Was he a good leader ?

I don't think he had much control, he was not giving out military orders during easter week (or what orders he gave were widely ignored). connolly was head of the dublin battalion which made him de facto leader of the armed forces. pearse was the president iirc, which had as much useful control as our president does now.

Was he a democrat ?

I don't know of any evidence to suggest he was not? There's never been any strong arguments to suggest any rebel leader from at least 1798 on was anything but a democrat, a consequence perhaps of Irish people's long term disenfranchisement under British rule.

CDfm wrote: »

Another few for you.

Did Pearse kill anyone. I have read an account of Connolly killing a police sergeant on the way from Liberty Hall. So presumably he was the first casualty (his identity must be known) and there was no turning back.The Rising was on.

I have never heard that connolly killed someone on the way to the gpo, although it could have happened. Where did you read it do you know?

O'Rahilly was the Irish Volunteers Quartermaster & gunrunnr and his was the most cinematic. Machinegunned down, dying love letter to wife from the doorway, and being left to die by the British.He was the man.

Afaik he was initially against the rising but when it kicked off he joined in. Sounds like an absolute legend and definitely needs a new biography (assuming there's even an old one).

Are there any accounts of Pearse killing anyone.

Pearse made a lot of claims to being a decision maker in his Court Martial,but in reality did he get involved with the Germans etc. That seems to have been Casement & Plunkett.

His trips outside Ireland, Belgium and US related more to his school than any political activity. Am I missing something.

Now, I am not saying he was not brave, but I would like to see thru the myths that surround him.

Connolly had definate political views and ideologies - had Pearse ?

Never heard of Pearse killing anyone, he might have fired a pistol out the window a couple of times but that's probably it.

I think he probably made claims to have had as much responsibility as possible to get others off execution charges, his brother was one who had little to no part in any of the plans or fighting but was executed anyways.

Pearse was a republican, that's an ideology isn't it? I don't know of any economic or social ideologies he might have held, he was left leaning in the sense that like many he sympathised with the working classes.

@brianthebard - the policeman shooting is from the Irish Times

, Helena Molony had left Liberty Hall with nine other women, all members of the Citizen Army. She was dressed in an Irish tweed costume with a Sam Browne belt slung across it. In it was a revolver. She and the other women had been given the guns that morning by James Connolly, who told them: "Don't use them except in the last resort".Around 11.50am, the women followed a detachment of Citizen Army men, under the command of the Abbey actor Seán Connolly up Dame Street and then turned left and marched up to the front gate of the castle. "Just then," she recalled, "a police sergeant came out . . . He thought it was a parade and that it would be going up Ship Street. When Connolly went to go past him, the Sergeant put out his arm and Connolly shot him dead."
Connolly, who "was excited because he had shot the policeman dead", shouted to his detachment, "Get in, get in". But the rebels, who seemed to Helena Molony unsure of what they were doing, hesitated. "In a flash, the gates were closed. The sentry went into his box, and began firing." The rebels withdrew into the adjacent City Hall. The first military action of the Rising had failed in its objective of capturing the castle. The first casualty was not in fact a sergeant but an unarmed constable, 45-year-old James O'Brien.


http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/monday/

brianthebard wrote: »

That's Sean Connolly, I assumed you were talking about James Connolly. Sean led the attack on Dublin Castle and was killed by a fall from the rafters of a hall afaik.

FYI Captain Seán Connolly of the Irish Citizen Army - listed as the first Rebel fatality of 1916 (it's disputed whether or not he was killed by a british army sniper while hoisting the Tricolour over City Hall). Seán Connolly was an Abbey Theatre actor who became a captain in the Irish citizen Army. His men held City hall to disrupt British Army movements to and from the adjacent Dublin Castle. Eventually after a british army raid 26 bodies were removed, all apparently killed in direct combat.

He was also mentioned by W.B Yeats in his 'Three Songs To The One Burden' :

" Who was the first man shot that day?
The player Connolly, Close to the City Hall he died;
Catriage and voice had he;
He lacked those years that go with skill,
But later might have been A famous, a brilliant figure Before the painted scene.
From mountain to mountain ride the fierce horsemen."

Did any 1916 leader kill anybody

Denerick wrote: »

Do you know anything about James Stevens? Cos just... wow. I mean there are degree's of wrongness, but this is alternate dimension stuff.

When was he dictator of Ireland so?

My view of Pearse is that in terms of Irish nationalism he was a sincere patriot and Irish nationalist. Primarily a motivator, a mover of people through speech and the written word. You could argue he still is.

Here is one example of his work. I recommend digging up the Ronnie Drew narrated version of this from youtube.

The Rebel, by Patrick Prease,

Notes for Revolutionaries Vol 1, Foilseacháin an Ghlór Gafa, Belfast, 2005, pg 68-70

I am come of the seed of the people, the people that sorrow;
Who have no treasure but hope,
No riches laid up but a memory of an ancient glory
My mother bore me in bondage, in bondage my mother was born,
I am of the blood of serfs;
The children with whom I have played, the men and women with whom I have eaten
Have had masters over them, have been under the lash of masters,
and though gentle, have served churls.
The hands that have touched mine,
the dear hands whose touch Is familiar to me
Have worn shameful manacles, have been bitten at the wrist by manacles,
have grown hard with the manacles and the task-work of strangers.
I am flesh of the flesh of these lowly, I am bone of their bone I that have never submitted;
I that have a soul greater than the souls of my people’s masters,
I that have vision and prophecy, and the gift of fiery speech,
I that have spoken with God on the top of his holy hill.
And because I am of the people, I understand the people,
I am sorrowful with their sorrow, I am hungry with their desire;
My heart is heavy with the grief of mothers,
My eyes have been wet with the tears of children,
I have yearned with old wistful men,
And laughed and cursed with young men;
Their shame is my shame, and I have reddened for it
Reddened for that they have served, they who should be free
Reddened for that they have gone in want, while others have been full,
Reddened for that they have walked in fear of lawyers and their jailors.
With their Writs of Summons and their handcuffs,
Men mean and cruel.
I could have borne stripes on my body
Rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision:
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people’s name to
The masters of my people:
I say to my people that they are holy,
That they are august despite their chains.
That they are greater than those that hold them
And stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God who loves the people
For whom he died naked, suffering shame.
And I say to my people’s masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men’s desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants… hypocrites… liars!


_______

These words were of course famously written across the walls of Kilmainham 'Beware the risen people' :

CDfm wrote: »

OK - but he wasn't readmuch when alive.

How do you know that out of interest? I know he had a pamphlet published in 1915/16, which I believe was a manifesto of sorts, or a collection of his articles, and as editor of the sword of light (I'm not bothered looking up the correct irish spelling) he obviously wrote plenty of articles and had a vehicle for his poetry if he wanted it. So I would question this assumption. Tbh there are many many poets from this period that you or anyone else here will not have heard of but were published often, and you're not missing out on anything. So it comes down to what did they do of historical importance to get noticed versus their enduring literary appeal.

What was his influence etc leading up to General Election 1918 when SF got 46% of the vote.

How was he portrayed.

As a martyr, all the executed leaders were, you could buy commemorative pictures/portraits of them within a few weeks of the Rising. Influence after his death however was restricted...

I don't know if his works were reprinted, some would still have been current and in circulation, many of the printing presses that were negative towards the British empire were shut down under the defence of the realm act (DORA) before 1916 and that act would have remained in place so publishing revolutionary documents would have been difficult on a wide scale. Its an interesting question though.

Of course, and those parts are self evident.

I am trying to gauge his influence in the direct aftermath.

My grandfather had very little time for the leaders of the rising and thought it a waste. Similar views to Collins, Hobson etc

So it was a military failure -it turned into a political success .

In that way , I am trying to gauge how Pearse figured in this and the use of his story myth or legend on subsequent events.

Just in terms of the paedophile accusation. I have read little lad of the tricks and it certainly sounds really dodgy. What is the arguement that this isnt about kissing little boys?

Morlar wrote: »

Pretty sure that slur has been addressed and answered 50 times at this stage.

any idea where? Ive searched through this forum without coming accross anything uselfull. Most of what Ive read online seems over defensive

Morlar wrote: »

As I see it 'the aftermath' was that those involved in 1916 were also involved in the Irish War of Independence and many of them were then also involved in the Irish Civil war.

thats reasonable

How can you seperate what influence Pearse had on those same men during his lifetime in the pre-Rising days and after his death (by virtue of his legacy and writings) during the War of Independence?

Many of the same people had been influenced by him but in some ways would have left him behind to a degree as the country had descended into a War of Independence which differed significantly from the Ireland of Pearses lifetime.

my grandfather was from Cork and was not influenced by him

Pearse was in a higher position than Collins was (at that time). So the issues and problems Pearse dealt with in 1915/1916 in the pre-rising era are greatly different to those dealt with by Collins when he was in a comparably senior position (after Frongoch and in the lead up to and early days of the Irish War of Independence).

I suppose it is debatable what power and control Pearse had over the military situation -nonetheless - he had significant political significance.

Whether or not Collins and Pearse agreed on everything is neither here nor there. They were different men for different times and working for a common goal in their own way in their own time.

Collins was not impressed by Pearse.

A question therefore is for me how much of what came later depended on Pearse "playing" the revolutionary leaders role. ( I do not know how to phrase this)

The surrender pic is iconic and it looks like a surrender pic.

Pearses agreed speach at his court-martial.

Both of these were done in a way to be media friendly. There is no doubt in my mind he deliberately stage managed the event. The photo is more than coincidence.

I read of Casement that he found it incredulous that he was to be hanged like a "boy" (colonial native) .

Pearse was a barrister and Willie had been to college. So really "they" were "one of us".

The jury were not executing "boys"-they were executing their peers.

Could I ask, do you look at all the executed leaders of 1916 in terms of their 'story myth or legend' ? How about talking about them as men who were leaders and who had respect and the power to influence and motivate others ? I don't see how this should be described as 'myth & legend', it is historical fact (or historical interpretation) of very prominent political/military/revolutionary figures.

You can , of course.

I live in Dublin but am not from here, I have an interest in the "lore" part and when I asked the question about stonework it was well a nice Saturday afternoon could be spent looking at Pearse Family work.

So I did a search on architecture sites and found the half brother & sister & also that the altar and railings in my hometown's parish church were by James Pearse. They are particularly fine and superior to the building that surrounds them.

(Dominick Behan - was friendly with my Dad for a while and he used to do shopfront restoration.)So I have no problem with placing Willie Pearse & James Pearse as Artists rather than artisans.

So his background as a man was different to what I was taught.

The Dudley Edwards thing, well, if I was looking for a Pearse bio his family was a huge gap in her theory so why should I believe her on her Eveleen Nicholls interpretation.


So I looked for things I could relate to. Coat-pegging with facts.

I can understand his photo staging of his surrender in the context of JFK's use of press photo's 40 years later. He had been an editor and would have been at home with print media.

I think the man is more important than the myth.

Did you know that the printer who printed the Proclamation was Brady - and I just wonder were they related . His mother was Brady. So how extended family orientated was he ?

http://typefoundry.blogspot.com/2010/01/image-of-proclamation-of-irish-republic.html

The printed Proclamation was important to him. It was a last minute job .

Now I do not intend to go thru all or any other of the leaders like this at all & it was not my intention to look at Pearse - only the OP asked the question.

I think I have been very fair. And I hope I have given the OP enough to be able to cast a critical eye over whatever biography he chooses - but not to accept everything he reads.

Anyway Morlar, did you find out anything new about Pearse from what I dredged up ?

sensibleken wrote: »

there were a few on politics.ie
http://www.politics.ie/history/78541-paedo-no-what-pearse-poem-about-if-not-kissing-wee-boys.html

and a few another couple of places I cant retrace.

They quickly descend into a 'thats a slur, he died for ireland' and back and forth sniping without providing any literary criticism from either side as to theories of any alternative meanings. Im not saying he was a child abuser, Im aware no allegations were levied against him.

That poster begins with the statement 'we all know pearse was a peadarast and fancies young boys' is that supposed to be some sort of source? We expect better in this history forum tbh. I have never read anything by a serious historian suggesting that he had paedophilic tendencies and tbh I think there has been an incredible amount of slander aimed at him, one critic going as far as to suggest necrophiliac tendencies. At this stage he has been accused of almost every sexual deviancy you can think of except perhaps beastiality, but you never know maybe someone is working on a phd involving this. Anyways long story short put up a link to an actual historian or critic with credentials that backs up your argument or stop posting on this topic.