US diplomat's wife flees home claiming diplomatic immunity after fatal collision

Guy:Incognito · 06-10-2019 4:26pm

NotToScale wrote: »

.

I get a bit fed up with the tribalism in the US and UK political sphere. No administration is exempt from critical comment. At least not in the free world anyway.

It's even worse when people here are all out trump lovers. Its wierd at best.

To be creaming yourself about and defending him unconditionally is odd . The way some british and american people go on on twitter about johnson and trump is just creepy. They're being such obvious ***** in plenty of circumstances yet you have people that must have mental deficiencies posting rubbish like " best pm ever" or "best president" on twitter. It comes across as brainwashed. Ffs, neither could honestly describe themselves as that.

But irish people doing it is another level altogether. ****ing hell, if someone is being a ****, at least have the balls to say it.

Still waters · 06-10-2019 4:42pm

So this thread turned into a pro/anti trump wankathon, sad cnuts

Overheal · 06-10-2019 5:43pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I love how people can just turn anything into a great anti donald rant.

Giving the real estate mogul free real estate in your mind, no need to worry, only 4 more years kid.

You never seem too far from a clutch of your "MAGA 2020" etc. pearls

blanch152 · 06-10-2019 8:08pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The state department is behaving in the same manner as other government would deal with a request, regardless who the office holder is.
Can you provide a link to any government which removed diplomatic immunity status from any of its citizens. I certainly can't. Similar incidents happened in 93 and 97 in Russia , US didn't remove immunity from there citizens then either and I'm positive Trump wasn't president then.

I seem to remember an Irish diplomat in either San Francisco or Chicago having diplomatic immunity removed to face a drunken driving charge in the 1990s

STB. · 06-10-2019 8:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I seem to remember an Irish diplomat in either San Francisco or Chicago having diplomatic immunity removed to face a drunken driving charge in the 1990s

Yep. Infact the local district attorney refused to allow it, as he was not on official business. Supposedly took a load of parked cars out of it.

Gatling · 06-10-2019 10:48pm

Sky news identified the driver as Anne Sacoolas

STB. · 06-10-2019 11:09pm

That's some level of detail Sky have released.

Wife of a diplomat that didn't work at the embassy, but at a spy base ?

Agreement between UK and US for immunity at spy base. I've heard it all now.

Gatling · 06-10-2019 11:16pm

STB. wrote: »

That's some level of detail Sky have released.

Wife of a diplomat that didn't work at the embassy, but at a spy base ?

Agreement between UK and US for immunity at spy base. I've heard it all now.

It's an interesting one , chances are she or her husband aren't diplomats at all but CIA asset or management

06-10-2019 11:44pm

I thought exactly the same when I heard the story. "Diplomat" can be used very *broadly* sometimes.

I felt bad for the young fellas family when I saw them on sky news, but the Brits would not hesitate to protect one of their own if the shoe was on the other foot too.

ChikiChiki · 07-10-2019 12:43am

What an absolute wench of a woman. Diplomatic immunity should not extend this far.

loyatemu · 07-10-2019 9:45am

UK Police have asked the US to waive immunity, seems unlikely to happen though:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/06/all-hope-had-gone-grieving-british-mother-criticises-us-embassy

El Tarangu · 07-10-2019 9:54am

STB. wrote: »

That's some level of detail Sky have released.

Wife of a diplomat that didn't work at the embassy, but at a spy base ?

Agreement between UK and US for immunity at spy base. I've heard it all now.

The more detail that emerges, the more of a clear-cut a case it is showing why diplomatic immunity exists.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/anne-sacoolas/

The accident seems to have taken place while Sacoolas was leaving military base - apparently some sort of secret communications station. Spouses of diplomats often carry out spying/diplomatic work themselves; their presence in the host country can be plausibly explained away by their official role as 'just the wife/husband'. Sacoolas is former State Department, which would lend weight to this theory.

If police were able to arrest and interrogate her, their line of questioning would naturally cover the sequence of events leading up to the accident ("where was it exactly you were leaving; how often to do go there; what exactly is your role there..."), which could compromise all sorts of intelligence operations, and be a great source of embarrassment for the U.S and U.K. governments.

Similarly for things like parking tickets and speeding - who knows what sort of important business a diplomatic car is double-parked for? Diplomats can't be obliged to give accounts for themselves to the police service in the host country; part of the agreement is that they are allowed go about their business unmolested. What if a war broke out, all because a diplomat wasn't able to personally deliver an important message because his/her car was clamped?
Of course, human nature being what it is, unscrupulous individual diplomats will abuse this privilege to drive drunk and park wherever they like.

Diplomatic immunity is a good system, in theory, and predates almost every other part of international law; the problem is in the real world, is sometimes throws up awful anomalies like this.

RIP to that poor boy, my heart goes out to his family.

Donald Trump · 07-10-2019 10:08am

STB. wrote: »

Yep. Infact the local district attorney refused to allow it, as he was not on official business. Supposedly took a load of parked cars out of it.

Doubt that. District attorney might have tried to press forward with the charges regardless but he couldn't override diplomatic immunity. It would have to be waived by the diplomats country.

FYI, if he was in his own car, then it would have had diplomatic plates. When you are in such a vehicle (whether diplomat or not) it is the same as being in an embassy. The diplomat wouldn't have to justify official business or not either way.

Portsalon · 07-10-2019 10:50am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I thought exactly the same when I heard the story. "Diplomat" can be used very *broadly* sometimes. I felt bad for the young fellas family when I saw them on sky news,

the Brits would not hesitate to protect one of their own if the shoe was on the other foot too.

I'm not so sure. Whatever about the Tories/Daily Mail/Telegraph/Express brigade, I can't see UK Labour/Lib Dems, etc. or the Guardian tolerating such a completely indefensible abuse of diplomatic immunity.

GooglePlus · 07-10-2019 11:28am

El Tarangu wrote: »

The more detail that emerges, the more of a clear-cut a case it is showing why diplomatic immunity exists.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/anne-sacoolas/

The accident seems to have taken place while Sacoolas was leaving military base - apparently some sort of secret communications station. Spouses of diplomats often carry out spying/diplomatic work themselves; their presence in the host country can be plausibly explained away by their official role as 'just the wife/husband'. Sacoolas is former State Department, which would lend weight to this theory.

If police were able to arrest and interrogate her, their line of questioning would naturally cover the sequence of events leading up to the accident ("where was it exactly you were leaving; how often to do go there; what exactly is your role there..."), which could compromise all sorts of intelligence operations, and be a great source of embarrassment for the U.S and U.K. governments.

Similarly for things like parking tickets and speeding - who knows what sort of important business a diplomatic car is double-parked for? Diplomats can't be obliged to give accounts for themselves to the police service in the host country; part of the agreement is that they are allowed go about their business unmolested. What if a war broke out, all because a diplomat wasn't able to personally deliver an important message because his/her car was clamped?
Of course, human nature being what it is, unscrupulous individual diplomats will abuse this privilege to drive drunk and park wherever they like.

Diplomatic immunity is a good system, in theory, and predates almost every other part of international law; the problem is in the real world, is sometimes throws up awful anomalies like this.

RIP to that poor boy, my heart goes out to his family.

Could they not just avoid asking that, as it's irrelevant really.

Portsalon · 07-10-2019 1:19pm

More from the London Times:-

"The driver of the car has been named as Anne Sacoolas, a 42-year-old American citizen.

A file will be sent to prosecutors to decide whether to charge her with death by dangerous driving. However, she left the country, claiming immunity, shortly after the crash.

The US embassy has refused to grant Northamptonshire police an immunity waiver to interview Ms Sacoolas, a mother of three, as a suspect.

Today, the prime minister said he could speak to the White House to demand the return of Ms Sacoolas.

“I do not think it can be right to use the process of diplomatic immunity for this type of purpose,” he said.

Mr Johnson’s spokesman added: “The details of this case are extremely concerning and the foreign secretary has discussed it with the US ambassador. The justice process should be allowed to take place and we urge the US to reconsider their decision.

“The prime minister offers his condolences to the Dunn family — this was a tragic set of events that no family should have to experience.”

Mr Dunn’s family have claimed that Ms Sacoolas was driving on the wrong side of the road for 400 yards before colliding head-on with the teenager’s motorbike.

His mother, Charlotte Charles, 44, had urged Mr Johnson to “get on the phone” to President Trump, and said that her son had “no chance” and that the driver had been on the wrong side of the road. She told Sky News: “The police have the CCTV footage showing that she pulled out of the RAF base on to the wrong side of the road. Harry had no chance.

“She travelled on 350 to 400 yards on the wrong side of the road. It was a head-on collision — we later lost him in hospital ........................ “We are utterly shocked and appalled that somebody is allowed just to get on a plane and go home and avoid our justice system.”

Ms Sacoolas and her husband only arrived in Britain in early August and their three children were enrolled in the £19,000-a-year Winchester House private school in Brackley, Northamptonshire, where Harry’s father, Tim Dunn, is the head of maintenance."

I wonder how Bojo will wriggle his way out of this one if the Yanks play hardball.

McDermotX · 07-10-2019 1:40pm

Scumbag bitch !

Chance here to make things right......failure to do so just reinforces statement above.

Lady Spangles · 07-10-2019 1:45pm

New to the thread so just jumping in here.

I get that diplomatic immunity is a thing. It always has been. But the woman is not a diplomat, she's a diplomat's wife. I didn't realise diplomatic immunity extended to their families. It's bizarre.

07-10-2019 1:49pm

She’s not much of a “spy” if she doesn’t know how to drive on the correct side of the road.

How would she like it if someone mowed into one of her kids, killed them and they just jumped on a plane to face no consequences? Probability is, if she had stayed around she would never see a custodial sentence anyway.

patrickobrien · 07-10-2019 1:55pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The state department is behaving in the same manner as other government would deal with a request, regardless who the office holder is.
Can you provide a link to any government which removed diplomatic immunity status from any of its citizens. I certainly can't. Similar incidents happened in 93 and 97 in Russia , US didn't remove immunity from there citizens then either and I'm positive Trump wasn't president then.

A South African court has annulled a government decision to grant Zimbabwe's former First Lady Grace Mugabe diplomatic immunity in an assault case.

El Tarangu · 07-10-2019 2:17pm

Lady Spangles wrote: »

New to the thread so just jumping in here.

I get that diplomatic immunity is a thing. It always has been. But the woman is not a diplomat, she's a diplomat's wife. I didn't realise diplomatic immunity extended to their families. It's bizarre.

It was explained succinctly earlier in the thread.

notobtuse · 07-10-2019 9:48pm

Terrible thing but diplomatic immunity is necessary. I doubt the US will waive diplomatic immunity as it would set a dangerous precedence. The immunity is necessary for diplomats and their families from being wrongly targeted in foreign nations. The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

notobtuse · 07-10-2019 9:51pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Doubt that. District attorney might have tried to press forward with the charges regardless but he couldn't override diplomatic immunity. It would have to be waived by the diplomats country.

FYI, if he was in his own car, then it would have had diplomatic plates. When you are in such a vehicle (whether diplomat or not) it is the same as being in an embassy. The diplomat wouldn't have to justify official business or not either way.

I was driving behind a vehicle in Washington, DC the other week that had Diplomat plates. He was not a safe driver and weaving in and out of lanes, so I kept my distance.

Torsevt · 07-10-2019 9:52pm

notobtuse wrote: »

Terrible thing but diplomatic immunity is necessary. I doubt the US will waive diplomatic immunity as it would set a dangerous precedence. The immunity is necessary for diplomats and their families from being wrongly targeted in foreign nations. The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

Didn't the US already set the precedent though

I think it was Georgia they asked to waive DI in a similar case

Donald Trump · 07-10-2019 10:01pm

notobtuse wrote: »

I was driving behind a vehicle in Washington, DC the other week that had Diplomat plates. He was not a safe driver and weaving in and out of lanes, so I kept my distance.

DC is full of them. Blue numberplates everywhere.

Most of them ignore tickets etc., but the cops/parking will still give them out - they just can't follow up to enforce them if they are ignored. They also can't stop them to give it to them but if a car is parked in a loading bay etc. they can write and leave it on the window.

notobtuse · 07-10-2019 10:04pm

Torsevt wrote: »

Didn't the US already set the precedent though

I think it was Georgia they asked to waive DI in a similar case

Asking for and giving it are two completely different animals. Countries always ask for it to be waived, but usually never provide it when asked.

07-10-2019 10:59pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

DC is full of them. Blue numberplates everywhere.

Most of them ignore tickets etc., but the cops/parking will still give them out - they just can't follow up to enforce them if they are ignored. They also can't stop them to give it to them but if a car is parked in a loading bay etc. they can write and leave it on the window.

While anyone with diplomatic immunity could in theory ignore a parking ticket, or drink driving for that matter, the embassies take a very dim view of it and it can harm someone’s career if they take the proverbial

El Tarangu · 08-10-2019 10:19am

Aegir wrote: »

While anyone with diplomatic immunity could in theory ignore a parking ticket, or drink driving for that matter, the embassies take a very dim view of it and it can harm someone’s career if they take the proverbial

Depends on the country - "western" democracies where the rule of law is given great importance would take a dim view, whereas in countries where corruption is an everyday occurrence, they probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 12:13pm

The diplomatic immunity laws are there partly to let nations spy on each other so they know what each other are up to so no need for unnecessary paranoia. So this whole thing is working at the level of nations and international security. Unfortunately the death of a citizen here and there, is really unlikely to get anyone to change the way they do things.

I'd expect nothing more to happen regarding waving diplomatic immunity to voluntarily face prison time in the UK. That's just not how things work.

Tragic death. Really sorry for the bloke's family.

AMKC · 08-10-2019 1:06pm

Have been watching the news about this on the British news and it is very sad and very disturbing that someone could do that, then say they will not go home there country and then do that. Even more disturbing is the fact she is supposed to have had her children in the car with her when it happened. What is this teacher her children. Oh look its ok to hit someone with your car maybe even kill them and just drive off very disturbing indeed.
It will be interesting to see if Donald Trump has any sort of morality in him and can persuade her to go let justice be served for what see done. The family have said they do not want her to go to prison they just want answers but because of what she has done they will now find it very hard to forgive her.

Plumbthedepths · 08-10-2019 1:12pm

AMKC wrote: »

Have been watching the news about this on the British news and it is very sad and very disturbing that someone could do that, then say they will not go home there country and then do that. Even more disturbing is the fact she is supposed to have had her children in the car with her when it happened. What is this teacher her children. Oh look its ok to hit someone with your car maybe even kill them and just drive off very disturbing indeed.
It will be interesting to see if Donald Trump has any sort of morality in him and can persuade her to go let justice be served for what see done. The family have said they do not want her to go to prison they just want answers but because of what she has done they will now find it very hard to forgive her.

Similar happened in 93/97 involving US citizens invoking DI. Clinton stood by and did nothing, just as Trump will.

radharc · 08-10-2019 2:06pm

notobtuse wrote: »

The family of the young lad can always go after her in US courts with a civil lawsuit… and should.

So they get some money, big deal. That's not justice.

notobtuse · 08-10-2019 2:47pm

An interesting short little bit I heard on NPR radio yesterday on the subject with Craig Baker, whose goal at one time was to abolish diplomatic immunity, but has since flipped because he realized the benefits it provided.

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/07/768032889/british-prime-minister-urges-u-s-to-waive-immunity-for-woman-after-deadly-car-cr

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 08-10-2019 2:49pm

NotToScale wrote: »

It's the Trump Whitehouse so think about what a sensible government, with ethics and morals would do. Then just assume they'll do the complete opposite.

RIP Harry Dunn and my sincere condolences to his family and friends. It's an awful thing to have happened and it looks like it was a tragic accident, but whatever the circumstances it's compounded by cowardly hiding behind diplomatic protocol.

It just comes across as extreme arrogance by the US Government. It's not as if the UK is incapable of reasonably, fairly and proportionately investigating a fatal road accident and providing extremely high standards of due process.

US citizen.

Trumps fault.

Ok..

shesty · 08-10-2019 4:21pm

Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

Curiouser and curiouser....

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 4:34pm

shesty wrote: »

Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

Curiouser and curiouser....

I think they changed the rules on diplomatic immunity a few years ago to cover the people who work at that Base and their immediate family.

notobtuse · 08-10-2019 4:47pm

radharc wrote: »

So they get some money, big deal. That's not justice.

No, it is not justice. But it is at least some small remedy to the situation. In a small way it makes one pay (literally) for their crime.

Titzon Toast · 08-10-2019 5:02pm

The fact that she ran back to America says everything about the type of scummy person she is.

I hope she gets what she deserves.

Plumbthedepths · 08-10-2019 5:27pm

shesty wrote: »

Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

Curiouser and curiouser....

Sky news reported the DI was extended to those working at that specific base, but their is suggestions that it may extend to other bases. This appears to have been done without the knowledge of the public. Whatever the merits of DI it certainly was not envisaged for situations where beneficiaries of same could shirk their responsibilities as this woman has done.

mikhail · 08-10-2019 5:34pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The diplomatic immunity laws are there partly to let nations spy on each other so they know what each other are up to so no need for unnecessary paranoia. So this whole thing is working at the level of nations and international security. Unfortunately the death of a citizen here and there, is really unlikely to get anyone to change the way they do things.

I'd expect nothing more to happen regarding waving diplomatic immunity to voluntarily face prison time in the UK. That's just not how things work.

Tragic death. Really sorry for the bloke's family.

It's also there so a country can't quietly get rid of a diplomat they don't like (or someone they suspect of spying) by framing them for something.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 7:09pm

Titzon Toast wrote: »

The fact that she ran back to America says everything about the type of scummy person she is.

I hope she gets what she deserves.

That's not true at all. I wonder how many people would avoid a trial, likely conviction, criminal record and prison sentence, if they could?

I doubt it means much. The only difference is the fact that she can actually get away with it.

mikhail · 08-10-2019 8:53pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's not true at all. I wonder how many people would avoid a trial, likely conviction, criminal record and prison sentence, if they could?

I doubt it means much. The only difference is the fact that she can actually get away with it.

How many months' prison sentence would you ruin your partner's career to get out of?

joseywhales · 08-10-2019 8:58pm

Any months

Stop moaning ffs · 08-10-2019 9:05pm

Been thinking about this.

How could you live with yourself not only for having done this and killed a young man. But to then run away from justice.
When the whole world knows your name??

She’s either the most stupid woman imaginable or she’s beyond that stuck up yank privileged wagon we keep hearing about

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 9:37pm

mikhail wrote: »

How many months' prison sentence would you ruin your partner's career to get out of?

Depends. Maybe any months. His career is presumably over now anyway so I'd say I'd probably just skip prison if i had the choice. I'd say most people would skip prison if they could.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 9:38pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Been thinking about this.

How could you live with yourself not only for having done this and killed a young man. But to then run away from justice.
When the whole world knows your name??

She’s either the most stupid woman imaginable or she’s beyond that stuck up yank privileged wagon we keep hearing about

Yeah absolutely. Sleepless nights, PTSD etc. Miserable life ahead for that wan.

Gatling · 08-10-2019 10:36pm

shesty wrote: »

Interestingly I see they are now saying that it has been confirmed the husband is not on the official diplomats list, and they seemed to be based at an intelligence base rather than a diplomatic one (if that's the right way to say it).

Curiouser and curiouser....

This is what I suggested a few pages back ,

Stop moaning ffs · 08-10-2019 10:44pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah absolutely. Sleepless nights, PTSD etc. Miserable life ahead for that wan.

And the lads family will suffer far more than that. Sleepless nights and ptsd doesn’t absolve her or running.
What was she thinking? Dragging this out and made it far more serious and ugly by running away.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-10-2019 10:49pm

mikhail wrote: »

It's also there so a country can't quietly get rid of a diplomat they don't like (or someone they suspect of spying) by framing them for something.

Any diplomat can be expelled at any time for no reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

Under Article 9 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a receiving state may "at any time and without having to explain its decision" declare any member of a diplomatic staff persona non grata. A person so declared is considered unacceptable and is usually recalled to his or her home nation. If not recalled, the receiving state "may refuse to recognize the person concerned as a member of the mission".

El_Duderino 09 · 08-10-2019 11:05pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

And the lads family will suffer far more than that. Sleepless nights and ptsd doesn’t absolve her or running.
What was she thinking? Dragging this out and made it far more serious and ugly by running away.

Nothing would absolve her of what she did. Going to prison wouldn't absolve her either nor would it diminish the guys family's loss. He's still gone.

I'm not trying to downplay anyone's pain. I just don't think many people would actually waive diplomatic immunity and go to prison if they had the choice to simply not go to prison.

US diplomat's wife flees home claiming diplomatic immunity after fatal collision

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