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Drawing nude/semi-nude underage girls - is that also pedophilia?

2

Comments

  • #52
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    sron wrote: »
    Isn't the point of criminalising paedophilia to protect children? If no children are being harmed, what's the problem? Just because you find what someone **** over disgusting doesn't mean he should face a jail term. Edges on thought-crime in a way.
    This.

    Some 30 year old taking time out of playing WoW to **** over some badly drawn 7 year olds is pretty ****ed up, but no-one gets hurt by it and it'd be pretty unfair to treat him the same as a child rapist (obviously he wouldn't get nearly as severe a punishment and may not get jail time even, but once a newspaper picks up on the story everyone will be led to believe he's the evil offspring of Charles Manson and Josef Fritzl)


  • #53
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Pygmalion wrote: »
    ...[stuff]...

    I would just like to say that considering the currant debate in this thread on the narrow difference between porn and art, your Username is brilliant.


  • #54
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,628 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The_Minister wrote: »
    I would just like to say that considering the currant debate in this thread on the narrow difference between porn and art, your Username is brilliant.

    I would like to thank the OP for raisin the issue :D!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #55
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    The_Minister wrote: »
    There was a case in Australia (I'm too scared to Google), where a man who had that picture of Bart and Lisa having sex was convicted of child pornography.

    There is tons of Simpsons porn online. I have seen Marge gangbanged. Seen Homer and his sister in laws have rough sex. You name it. I wouldn't watch any Crusty The Clown stuff now though .. I'm not sick you know!!

    /looks around all paranoid.


  • #56
    bluto63
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭bluto63


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    There is tons of Simpsons porn online. I have seen Marge gangbanged. Seen Homer and his sister in laws have rough sex. You name it. I wouldn't watch any Crusty The Clown stuff now though .. I'm not sick you know!!

    /looks around all paranoid.

    It's in ads on the side of the window too, so regardless of whether you wanted to see it, you did. Bart and Lisa gettin it on, Bart and Marge, all sorts of weird images. And there's also Disney porn...


  • #57
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    bluto63 wrote: »
    And there's also Disney porn...

    Really?

    *looks around nervous*

    You got any Goofy on Minnie Mouse action?


  • #58
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Pedophilia is not a choice. I've seen a documentry where people genuinly suffer with it because they know that it is wrong but they can't help being attracted to children. Imagine being told that being attracted to women/men is unacceptable? It isn't something you can turn off, even if you don't do anything about it, it's going to hurt.

    Looking at it from that point of view, surely it's better for them to **** off to pictures rather than actual child porn, where children suffered?

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #59
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Pedophilia is not a choice. I've seen a documentry where people genuinly suffer with it because they know that it is wrong but they can't help being attracted to children?

    Okay .. *puts serious hat back on* ..

    I agree somewhat but let me ask you .. what's a child? There are people who say 16 year olds are kids and if you see one and think she's hot then your a pedo.


  • #60
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Yes, but the point is .. society does not always see it as black and white. Many people have done time over having 'art' on their PC.

    Art is quite subjective though.

    Look at Peewee Herman, he got fcuked becuase of Kitsch he had!!


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  • #61
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Okay .. *puts serious hat back on* ..

    I agree somewhat but let me ask you .. what's a child? There are people who say 16 year olds are kids and if you see one and think she's hot then your a pedo.
    Sorry, by child I meant pre-pubescent

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #62
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Art is quite subjective though!!

    I know and that's why I placed inverted commas (or whatever they are called :D) around the word :)


  • #63
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Sorry, by child I meant pre-pubescent

    Yes, and that's where the word should be directed. I'm tried of reading about a 15 who had sex with a guy and so he must be a pedo. Hysteria.


  • #64
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Yes, and that's where the word should be directed. I'm tried of reading about a 15 who had sex with a guy and so he must be a pedo. Hysteria.

    Haebophile really :)


  • #65
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Haebophile really :)

    What did you call me?

    :D


  • #66
    hairy cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭hairy cake


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    There is a japanese pornstar called Kitty. She looks way younger than the girl in the OP. Last year a judge in the UK convicted a guy of having child porn on his PC because he had a ton oh her clips.

    His solicitor protested that the girl was 18-21 years of age on all clips but the judge said the law in the UK is clear. The girl looks like a child and so it's hardcore child pornography.

    He got seven years.

    Realises nobody is reading this as they are all off Google'ing Kitty the Japanese Pornstar :)

    Any link for this - sounds pretty unlikely tbh.


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  • #67
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    hairy cake wrote: »
    Any link for this - sounds pretty unlikely tbh.

    No link, looked for it though. He had a whole load of stuff but the fact that they made an issue that she was in it would suggest that she was one of the youngest.

    I'll have another look.


  • #68
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    hairy cake wrote: »
    Any link for this -

    Keep finding this link when I search for that Kitty one .. :)

    Link ..


  • #69
    ToniTuddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭ToniTuddle


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Yes, and that's where the word should be directed. I'm tried of reading about a 15 who had sex with a guy and so he must be a pedo. Hysteria.


    I wouldn't call them pedos....but men who tend to (quite often) go after girls who are 14/15 sure as hell have issues.
    As for the drawing....it is a grey area. There are alot of factors that have to be taken into consideration.


  • #70
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    ToniTuddle wrote: »
    I wouldn't call them pedos....but men who tend to (quite often) go after girls who are 14/15 sure as hell have issues.
    As for the drawing....it is a grey area. There are alot of factors that have to be taken into consideration.

    Sure, they have issues but they are not pedos is all I'm saying. Hell, if Elvis was alive today he would be doing some hard time.


  • #71
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    Whether it's legal or not, it's still wrong to anyone with common sense.

    This type of art is a big thing in Japan, so is scat........<_< >_>

    And i wouldn't call this type of cack art, just perveted, like the japanese. (though I still love them :p)


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  • #72
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    hairy cake wrote: »
    Any link for this ..

    Still no joy. It was on the LukeFord.com website and it discussed the possibilty of them questioning her age. I remember at the time, reports were that the adult industry was freaking out thinking it was another Traci Lords affair.

    Lasted 24 hours and went away as they checked to make sure she hadn't faked her ID like Traci. She is way younger looking than Traci was though. I always thought Traci Lords looked 18 or older. Never understood the facination with her.

    Here's a face pic of Kitty at 19 .. might give you some idea why they felt the images were of an underage girl.

    Pic


  • #73
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Does anyone remember some father in the UK got picked up by the boys in blue when someone developing photos of his baby got suspicious and put in a call? A while back now, but I'm pretty sure it happened.

    So what is the dividing line between a pedo and someone with dodgy tastes?

    Would a teenager lookingat this stuff be exempt through their own reduced age?

    It's all a bit of a mindphuck.


  • #74
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Here's a guy who photoshoped kids heads onto porn pics. Very paedogeddon.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/5327826.stm


  • #75
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    sron wrote: »
    Isn't the point of criminalising paedophilia to protect children? If no children are being harmed, what's the problem? Just because you find what someone **** over disgusting doesn't mean he should face a jail term. Edges on thought-crime in a way.

    Pretty much this!


  • #76
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    I would like to thank the OP for raisin the issue :D!

    Pity I'm not the OP.


  • #77
    Prof.Badass
    Registered Users Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Prof.Badass


    Afaik it's not as straightforward as cartoon child porn.

    If the drawings are in the anime style they wouldn't be realistic representations of people (head and eyes would be bigger, limbs would be skinnier etc). From what i gather in a lot of these images the character is made to look sexually mature* (i.e more womanly hips/more developed breasts than would be seen in a real girl of that age).
    This blurs the lines a lot because the common theory is that sexual maturity is a large part of what stops normal people being attracted to children. Which could actually make things worse because a potentially normal person might be helped down the road to paedophilia by these images. However it is kinda hard to imagine someone making the leap from **** over some cartoon pics to becoming a child molester.

    Then there'd be drawings of sexually mature 15/16 year olds. I don't think any sane person thinks this is truly paedophilic. Either way it's illegal here and that is how it will stay (can you imagine the uproar if a politician even suggested it be legalised?).


    *Obviously there's probably a lot of stuff that's just out and out cartoon child porn.


  • #78
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    My name is URL wrote: »
    I heard this story last month - http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/10/29/11570841.html

    makes you wonder where the legal line is tbh

    Mad.


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    There is a japanese pornstar called Kitty. She looks way younger than the girl in the OP. Last year a judge in the UK convicted a guy of having child porn on his PC because he had a ton oh her clips.

    His solicitor protested that the girl was 18-21 years of age on all clips but the judge said the law in the UK is clear. The girl looks like a child and so it's hardcore child pornography.

    He got seven years.

    Realises nobody is reading this as they are all off Google'ing Kitty the Japanese Pornstar :)

    Insane, but unsurprising, I see the same level of hysteria here frequently.

    People want to distance themselves so much from the possiblity of being assosiated with paedophila that they freak out and suggest everything is paedophilic.

    A lot of people are annoyingly stupid.
    They really haven't moved on much from school when they would exclaim that someone was 'GAY' because of something they wore, their voice, a viewpoint, how they walked, anything.


  • #79
    EMOH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭EMOH


    http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=852846

    How come you got the same exact thread posted on FP?


  • #80
    DazMarz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,493 ✭✭✭DazMarz


    If he didn't have a college degree and post it as animé, it'd be porno.

    The difference between a lot of art and porno is a government grant/college degree/title...

    Calling something animé/art cannot change the fact that it is porno sometimes!


  • #81
    blueovalmk2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55 ✭✭blueovalmk2


    wrong wrong wrong!!!


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  • #82
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Realises nobody is reading this as they are all off Google'ing Kitty the Japanese Pornstar :)
    Here ya go.


  • #83
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    The_Minister wrote: »
    It is illegal in Ireland, Child Trafficking and Pornography Act, 1998.

    Even if they are 18, and you represent them as being underage, it's child porn.

    The wording of the Act relates to 'depictions' of a 'person'. An imaginary anime character isn't a person and therefore such drawings of them are legal.

    Any drawing of a real life person (not sure about deceased subjects) would be a depiction of a 'person' and therefore illegal according to that act.

    It's an unintended loophole by the thought police.

    Personal opinion: If it ain't harming anyone, then let them draw to their hearts content. I don't see how any any drawing of any imaginary character, even erotic/sexual ones can truly harm a child. I'm not saying I agree/like it, but it ain't doing any harm, so no big deal.


  • #84
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,012 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Don't forget guys this is Ireland. If you are willing to spend some time becoming a man of the cloth you can do pretty much anything. Abuse an alter boy and just get transferred. Draw some dodgy pictures? - probably put in charge of art class.


  • #85
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    The wording of the Act relates to 'depictions' of a 'person'. An imaginary anime character isn't a person and therefore such drawings of them are legal.

    Any drawing of a real life person (not sure about deceased subjects) would be a depiction of a 'person' and therefore illegal according to that act.

    It's an unintended loophole by the thought police.

    Personal opinion: If it ain't harming anyone, then let them draw to their hearts content. I don't see how any any drawing of any imaginary character, even erotic/sexual ones can truly harm a child. I'm not saying I agree/like it, but it ain't doing any harm, so no big deal.

    I think you are wrong, but we should wait for a legal professional to show up (and not just two law students)


  • #86
    Seonad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Seonad


    Notorious wrote: »
    33 posts and nobody has asked for pics?

    AH used to be cool.
    :rolleyes:

    :p


  • #87
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    The_Minister wrote: »
    I think you are wrong, but we should wait for a legal professional to show up (and not just two law students)

    So if I draw two stick figures of an adult & child in a sexual pose, it would be illegal?

    I'd love to get a professionals opinion on this to, but I don't see how the law could be applied to pictures of made up characters. Or is it down to realism? The better an artist you are, the more likely you'll be considered a child pornographer!


  • #88
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    I don't see how the law could be applied to pictures of made up characters.

    Either do I but it does. People have been imprisoned for creating pseudo child porn.

    People have also got time for writing fiction where the 'characters' were abused.


  • #89
    8k2q1gfcz9s5d4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭8k2q1gfcz9s5d4


    experiMental wrote: »
    This is slightly serious, cos me and my mate (who is a moderator of popular art website Deviant Art) had a heated discussion about this.

    So this is basically the story: someone, who says he has a college degree (definitely older than 18), draws semi-naked underage anime/animu girls, and uploads his stuff to Deviant Art. Some of the stuff is really borderline, yet he manages to get 6 million views, and a strong community of followers. My mate was thinking of warning him, but he changed his mind.

    Is that kind of stuff acceptable as art or is he some kind of sick f*ck that's going to be the next Garry Glitter?

    link?


  • #90
    GavRedKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    It all depends on how its viewed, I wouldnt think sick, a naked child, I would see the art in and not be worried about it, but for a percentage of the population it could be really offensive and they might be worried about the model or the principal of a young model being used, it all depends on circumstance.

    Art for me anyway, dont think the original artist would intend for it to be viewed any other way.


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  • #91
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    Simply solution. Our entire society should become 100% nudists. All the paedophiles will be, eh, noticable when they are around children, and the children won't grow up so self-concious and ashamed of their bodies.

    Oh, and we all get to see hot naked women.

    It's a win win situation.
    :p


  • #92
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    Simply solution. Our entire society should become 100% nudists. All the paedophiles will be, eh, noticable when they are around children, and the children won't grow up so self-concious and ashamed of their bodies.

    Oh, and we all get to see hot naked women.

    It's a win win situation.
    :p

    Perfect. Also solves the global warming issue as what we will want IS the planet to heat up so we can get back to doing what the f**k we want.


  • #93
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    How can it be classed as paedophilia? If he didn't make any physical contact then he can't possibly be classed as a paedophile. The work may not necessarily be appropriate but jumping to conclusions on the basis of his work alone isnt enough to make these kinds of judgements


  • #94
    Ziggurat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Ziggurat


    To sum up: the individual's sexual proclivities should only be dictated insofar as they have a demonstrable capability to harm others.

    I wonder what the law has to say about ero guro, rape fetishists or any of the other odd but nonetheless harmless fetishes.


  • #95
    Lone Stone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    I know about a gazzilion people who draw that manga type stuff and make a living doing it lol get over it jesus it's just a style/asian culture kinda thing.

    Unless he is like drawing picture's of REAL kids in the nip get over it :confused: (i think its called hentai/manga or something like that)


  • #96
    RMD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    Reminds me of the case in Britain where as man was charged with possesion of child pornography, the pornography being anime comics showing children having sex so it's not really pornography, it's just comics right?

    Personally I think either ways it's disgusting, but if it stopped peado's going after real child pornography I'd support it.


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  • #97
    Piste
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    Won't somebody please of the lines on paper???


  • #98
    Kold
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭Kold


    RMD wrote: »
    Reminds me of the case in Britain where as man was charged with possesion of child pornography, the pornography being anime comics showing children having sex so it's not really pornography, it's just comics right?

    Personally I think either ways it's disgusting, but if it stopped peado's going after real child pornography I'd support it.
    Do you reckon it does in any way at all? Paedophilia of course, pre-dating weeabooism by some millenia.


  • #99
    pistonsvox
    Registered Users Posts: 503 ✭✭✭pistonsvox


    Kold wrote: »
    0_0 I go on 4chan... 2 secs while I go destroy my hard drive.
    amount of times pornsites sudddenly link you onto some mingin possibly illegal sites is unreal :mad:


  • #100
    Dub13
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dub13


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    Oh, and we all get to see hot naked women.

    There are also a lot of non hot woman out there that I would not like to see in the nip.

    Think about it,next election you are on O'Connell street and Mary Harney rolls up to you looking for your vote.No thanks,keep the clothes on girls.


  • #101
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    Sorry BB, gonna disagree with a post of yours for the first time. The day had to come in fairness :)

    There is such hoopla about children's naked bodies that, quite frankly, I wish I was an artist so I could spend all day doing it and go to jail for it too.

    It's the human body for crying out loud. I think the human race is mentally ill to censor any artist from painting any naked / nude body from his imagination. The world has gone mad.

    Fair enough - all depends on your interpretation, I suppose.

    We come from different generations aswell. My generation has "BE AFRAID OF THE PAEDOS! THAT MAN! HE'S A PAEDO, HE'S GOT A MOUSTACHE" drummed into them constantly, evidently, it's working...
    A lot of the posters here come from generations with less bubble-wrapped children, and are less likely to see something innocent as 'wrong'


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