Deer population control Pheonix park

Sheepdish1 · 14-04-2019 12:29pm #1

Hi, just wondering why deer are culled in the Pheonix Park as opposed to neutered?

I know they are beautiful animals but I’m not looking to start a debate on whether it is right or wrong.

I’m sure other options were researched and it was decided that this was the best option. They are in a urban area so this would have implacations for herd size as they don’t have as much space as they would have somewhere rural. I wonder would there be health implications for the herd with too many males living in such a restricted area for example?

Also because the space is shared with humans again I understand that the size needs to be controlled for safety.

Maybe deer don’t do well under anesthetisia compared to other animals? Or would it have really bad affects on the health of the male as they are a wild animal?

Thank you

eviltwin · 14-04-2019 12:32pm

The cynic in me says there is no money in neutering, the meat is sold when they are culled.

Seriously though I have no idea. The deer are amazing creatures and I hate the thought of any of them being killed but it's a safety issue

Guy:Incognito · 14-04-2019 12:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

The cynic in me says there is no money in neutering, the meat is sold when they are culled.

Who organises it? The opw? How much, as a percentage of the exceuqer, is raised from selling deer meat?

I have a feeling the countries budget isnt reliant on the money raised from the deer cull.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 12:38pm

Time to reintroduce wolves into Ireland deer population out if control they have no predators

Graces7 · 14-04-2019 1:04pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Time to reintroduce wolves into Ireland deer population out if control they have no predators

Oh great idea. worse than being shot. They can be fed birth control so yes the meat for money

Similar set up in Killarney when I was still living on the edge of the park

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/120-deer-shot-in-killarney-as-significant-cull-goes-on-871155.html

The Inishfallen episode was a total disgrace and negligence.

The Healy Raes are campaigning for fencing but apparently no road accidents have actually been caused by deer and speeding is a real danger.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 1:10pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh great idea. worse than being shot. They can be fed birth control so yes the meat for money

Can't see the deer's getting the hang of condom's they are tricky enough to get on with hands, be a nightmare with hooves

Graces7 · 14-04-2019 1:27pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Can't see the deer's getting the hang of condom's they are tricky enough to get on with hands, be a nightmare with hooves

????? Birth control as in pills for females!! Some places do it to curb rabbit populations. lol..... I did write " fed"!

Guy:Incognito · 14-04-2019 2:18pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Time to reintroduce wolves into Ireland deer population out if control they have no predators

Then maybe bears to control the wolves?

Markcheese · 14-04-2019 2:25pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Then maybe bears to control the wolves?

Do bears control wolves?
The first wolf pack in years has just reestablished itself In Holland, I'll see if I can find a link..
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47838162

Guy:Incognito · 14-04-2019 2:28pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Do bears control wolves?
2

Dont know. I googled wolves natural predators and it says bears kill wolf Cubs.

Whatever other dangerous predator for wolves can be subbed in.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 2:34pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Dont know. I googled wolves natural predators and it says bears kill wolf Cubs.

Whatever other dangerous predator for wolves can be subbed in.

Lions great way keep wolf population under control

Markcheese · 14-04-2019 2:36pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Dont know. I googled wolves natural predators and it says bears kill wolf Cubs.

Whatever other dangerous predator for wolves can be subbed in.

I heard one of the problems with trying to reintroduce grey partridge, was very little predators of fox's (and fox Cubs), so the fox's can freely hunt the partridge...
(pretty sure wolves disappeared in the 1700s,but bears are gone with thousands of years... Probably

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 2:37pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I heard one of the problems with trying to reintroduce grey partridge, was very little predators of fox's (and fox Cubs), so the fox's can freely hunt the partridge...
(pretty sure wolves disappeared in the 1700s,but bears are gone with thousands of years... Probably

Wolves didn't disappear they were hunted to extinction unfortunately

Dravokivich · 14-04-2019 2:41pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Wolves didn't disappear they were hunted to extinction unfortunately

A bit of an odd thing to say. We don't have to deal with wild predators. Which is helpful with large agriculture. Not so much with large vermin though.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 2:48pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

A bit of an odd thing to say. We don't have to deal with wild predators. Which is helpful with large agriculture. Not so much with large vermin though.

I find them beautiful animals I think it's sad when when men hunt them to extinction.
Birds of prey have been reintroduced why not wolves?

Graces7 · 14-04-2019 3:43pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

I find them beautiful animals I think it's sad when when men hunt them to extinction.
Birds of prey have been reintroduced why not wolves?

There are wolves in Ireland, in secret places in eg Leitrim. One in kerry too.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 3:47pm

Graces7 wrote: »

There are wolves in Ireland, in secret places in eg Leitrim. One in kerry too.

Really

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 14-04-2019 4:29pm

We don't have a deer problem, the deer have a people problem.

endacl · 14-04-2019 4:34pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

I find them beautiful animals I think it's sad when when men hunt them to extinction.
Birds of prey have been reintroduced why not wolves?

Figure out a way to explain to a wolf that wild deer are on the menu but sheep aren’t, and get back to us.

gozunda · 14-04-2019 4:38pm

Lennon Kind Sentry wrote: »

We don't have a deer problem, the deer have a people problem.

Even if all the people vanished tmrw - natursl increases would result in bigger populations which would outstrip available food supply. Deer populations are normally kept in check by large predators - these dont exist in Irland anymore.

Personally I see nothing against proper population control through using licenced and permit holding shooters. For existing herds - it helps control inbreeding and overpopulation in restricted areas especially and prevents animals from starving and dying in large numbers during the winter.

Del2005 · 14-04-2019 4:40pm

Lennon Kind Sentry wrote: »

We don't have a deer problem, the deer have a people problem.

We do have a deer problem in multiple locations. Deer are a prey animal so need predators to keep their numbers in check by removing the weak, otherwise the whole population suffers from overpopulation and end up starving to death. We have removed the predators so we need to control the population now.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 5:37pm

endacl wrote: »

Figure out a way to explain to a wolf that wild deer are on the menu but sheep aren’t, and get back to us.

Farmers could take sheep in at nighttime or get them karate lessons

Markcheese · 14-04-2019 8:56pm

The French are paying compensation to farmers who's animals are injured or killed, if they take measures to reduce attacks, (fencing, guard dogs Ect) none of which would prevent a pack of hungry wolves, but they usually go after wild prey...

Guy:Incognito · 14-04-2019 9:05pm

endacl wrote: »

Figure out a way to explain to a wolf that wild deer are on the menu but sheep aren’t, and get back to us.

and kids......

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 9:06pm

endacl wrote: »

Figure out a way to explain to a wolf that wild deer are on the menu but sheep aren’t, and get back to us.

Consent classes?

Cherry Blossom · 14-04-2019 9:10pm

Charles Ingles, unless you have something sensible to add to the conversation don't post in this thread again.

Charles Ingles · 14-04-2019 9:22pm

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

Charles Ingles, unless you have something sensible to add to the conversation don't post in this thread again.

Fair enough
Started out with the genuine suggestion of reintroduction of wolves to control wild deer population, still think it's a good idea and has been test cases in Europe.
Sorry for acting the maggot I do think it's a serious issue

grassroot1 · 14-04-2019 9:42pm

The way the deer are culled in the park is selective weaker,older and females past breeding as well as bucks with inferior genetics.
The deer are a food source and should end up in the food chain.
Sentimentality is of no use to an animal who starves to death.
Whether you agree with the methods used or not death by a rifle bullet leads to a lot less suffering.

Markcheese · 14-04-2019 11:14pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

and kids......

How many kids around Europe are attacked by dogs each year, and how many by wolves...?

kylith · 14-04-2019 11:16pm

I would imagine that there are issues with sterilisation due to logistics and cost (tranquilising, transporting to vet, operation, making sure animal wakes up, transporting back, post operative monitering, all on an animal that very easily dies of stress), and oral contraceptives would be difficult to efficiently administer; how often would it need to be administered? How would you make sure that the right deer gets its dose consistently?

Unfortunately culling is probably the only way that logistically makes sense. IIRC a lot of the meat goes to the zoo for the animals.

tk123 · 15-04-2019 8:44am

kylith wrote: »

IIRC a lot of the meat goes to the zoo for the animals.

It''s sold to a game dealer for something like €96 per carcass - I remember it being just under €100 and being :eek: when they were talking about it on the radio because I pay €5 per kg of venison chunks for the dogs! The sniper was on talking about it - they have a sniper do it because if they shot the deer say in the leg and wasn't killed he'd release testosterone and spoil the meat.

Varta · 15-04-2019 9:07am

If the deer were neutered/contraceptives the herd would be weak within a few years from age/illness. Culling with a sniper is by far the best way to manage the numbers. About twenty years ago they rounded up all of the deer and corralled them in the Magazine Fort for health checks and culling. There was carnage. Some deer jumped the wall and were killed or badly injured while others injured themselves charging into nets. The real threat to the deer is the people who refuse to obey the signs and insist on feeding them. I have seen very young children feeding mature stags. One day a stag will suddenly raise its head, injuring or even killing the child in the process and the OPW will be inundated with calls to remove the deer altogether.

Dravokivich · 15-04-2019 11:25am

They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.

Sheepdish1 · 15-04-2019 4:07pm

Varta wrote: »

If the deer were neutered/contraceptives the herd would be weak within a few years from age/illness. Culling with a sniper is by far the best way to manage the numbers. About twenty years ago they rounded up all of the deer and corralled them in the Magazine Fort for health checks and culling. There was carnage. Some deer jumped the wall and were killed or badly injured while others injured themselves charging into nets. The real threat to the deer is the people who refuse to obey the signs and insist on feeding them. I have seen very young children feeding mature stags. One day a stag will suddenly raise its head, injuring or even killing the child in the process and the OPW will be inundated with calls to remove the deer altogether.

Saw this over the weekend. Family with very young kids trying to hand feed them carrots even though there are numerous signs clearly indicating not to

We were looking at deer and were close enough but not to the extent they were getting nervous of us and we could see the deer pretty well munching away on the grass. The family with little kids wanted to try hand feed them even though there was a stag with a serious set of antlers on him

they got more and more nervous the closer they got, I'm sure they would run away but I wouldn't take my chances with a stag around

Sheepdish1 · 15-04-2019 4:18pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.

The deer I saw over the weekend didn't seem happy about the people approaching them but the family kept trying even though they looked really nervous of them. Is that why all the chicken wire cages are around the trees?

Yeah I suppose people probably think they are timid, which they are, but at the same time I say they would be strong enough if felt cornered or threatened especially with fawn

Markcheese · 15-04-2019 4:41pm

They can be timid, or at certain times of the year they can be more aggressive, I know of farmer who got charged by a large stag, he was trapped by a fence and managed to get the stags antlers to the ground, and had to sit holding the stag down till someone heard the roaring and rescued him with a tractor...

I can imagine some numpty getting a stag interested in food and then trying to put their kid on the stags back... For a laugh like, Shure aren't they reindeer....

Sheepdish1 · 15-04-2019 7:50pm

Markcheese wrote: »

They can be timid, or at certain times of the year they can be more aggressive, I know of farmer who got charged by a large stag, he was trapped by a fence and managed to get the stags antlers to the ground, and had to sit holding the stag down till someone heard the roaring and rescued him with a tractor...

I can imagine some numpty getting a stag interested in food and then trying to put their kid on the stags back... For a laugh like, Shure aren't they reindeer....

Are the females aggressive when they have fawn? I saw a video before of a deer lifting up and kicking down on someone and wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of one

Yeah, I can actually imagine someone doing something like that

Gael23 · 16-04-2019 7:19am

Why can’t the males be castrated?

Markcheese · 16-04-2019 7:32am

Gael23 wrote: »

Why can’t the males be castrated?

They probably can be... But for what?
And you'd probably have to castrate almost all, and then its a dying herd...

Markcheese · 16-04-2019 7:34am

Just close the park gates in winter, and release the wolves..(their enclosure in the zoo backs on to the park), could be tricky getting them back though..

rn · 16-04-2019 7:46am

Corralling non farm animals to administer en masse treatment is really difficult. They are not used to pens and being handled by people and deer are way more agile than normal farm animal.

Giving them birth control would limit natural selection and survival of fittest that a large herd requires to overcome diseases and other natural disasters.

Shooting and hunting are popular enough and the participants might as well be used to do the state and the herd a service.

Gael23 · 16-04-2019 7:56am

Markcheese wrote: »

They probably can be... But for what?
And you'd probably have to castrate almost all, and then its a dying herd...

To stop them breeding

gozunda · 16-04-2019 8:07am

Gael23 wrote: »

To stop them breeding

And that will only limit inbreeding not overpopulation with a herd full of castrated males...

Shooting simply mimics what happens in the wild where numbers are predated.

WinnyThePoo · 16-04-2019 8:12am

Dravokivich wrote: »

They've already learned to expect to be fed by people approaching them. I feel they don't know how much these things can hurt people. I've seen them rip trees apart.

Whenever I'm up with my kid, we keep a fair distance away from them. If any start walking towards us, we walk away from them.

Keep away from them. The ones in phoenix have enough food around them.

The amount of times during stag season I see people feeding deer with no awareness of the potential of a stag attacking staggering.

Chiparus · 16-04-2019 8:22am

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Hi, just wondering why deer are culled in the Pheonix Park as opposed to neutered?

I know they are beautiful animals but I’m not looking to start a debate on whether it is right or wrong.

I’m sure other options were researched and it was decided that this was the best option. They are in a urban area so this would have implacations for herd size as they don’t have as much space as they would have somewhere rural. I wonder would there be health implications for the herd with too many males living in such a restricted area for example?

Also because the space is shared with humans again I understand that the size needs to be controlled for safety.

Maybe deer don’t do well under anesthetisia compared to other animals? Or would it have really bad affects on the health of the male as they are a wild animal?

Thank you

When you say "neutered" what do you mean?

Do you think every male deer should be shot, with a tranquilizer, then castrated?

Is this really a less traumatic experience than a deer being culled?

MayoSalmon · 16-04-2019 8:51am

Chiparus wrote: »

When you say "neutered" what do you mean?

Do you think every male deer should be shot, with a tranquilizer, then castrated?

Is this really a less traumatic experience than a deer being culled?

One results in death and another in no bollix so I suppose no bollix is indeed worse:D

Varta · 16-04-2019 8:55am

MayoSalmon wrote: »

One results in death and another in no bollix so I suppose no bollix is indeed worse:D

Seriously though, it probably is. Take away the stag's masculinity and it would become a sorry looking animal with no purpose in life.

ganmo · 16-04-2019 10:52am

how is this thread still open?

Discussion of vermin/population control other than neutering of pet animals, regardless of species, is not permitted in this forum. More suitable forums might include Farming and Forestry/Smallholdings.

Chiparus · 16-04-2019 10:55am

Varta wrote: »

Seriously though, it probably is. Take away the stag's masculinity and it would become a sorry looking animal with no purpose in life.

Do you think the stags would prefer to be all castrated or a few deer killed humanely ?

Cherry Blossom · 16-04-2019 11:01am

ganmo wrote: »

how is this thread still open?

I made the decision to leave the thread open. As the deer cull is for the benefit of the herd, I felt there was no harm in discussing it here. We are monitoring the thread and if we feel it has outlived its purpose we will revisit the decision.

ganmo · 16-04-2019 11:12am

Chiparus wrote: »

Do you think the stags would prefer to be all castrated or a few deer killed humanely ?

what makes more of an impact on the number of the next generation?
the number of fertile males or the number of females?

castrate 20 stags and leave 5 entire you'll have the same number of fawns

kill 5 does and leave 20 alive, you'll have 5 less fawns.

The only reason these deer are special is because they're in the park, if they were 5 miles north they'd be open to be shot by anyone with a licence from the NPWS.

Deer population control Pheonix park

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