Ireland should stop selling houses to non residents

chuchuchu · 31-03-2019 8:04pm #1

I was thinking of how expensive it is to buy a house/apt in Dublin. When you factor in that a morgage can be only 3.5 times a persons salary and the average salary is 45000. Then for example a 3 bed house should cost about 200000 including the deposit. But I dont understand how the house prices are like double that price, I mean who could aford it?!

Then I read stories of foreign investment companies buying up the housing stock and apartment blocks here, which is very discouraging and inflates the prices. Wouldnt it be best for the goverment to pass legislation to ban sales to non Irish residents? As what was done in recently in New Zealand, at least until the housing crisis has past and until they are enough houses been built to keep the prices in check.

amcalester · 31-03-2019 8:07pm

All that’ll happen is the foreign investment funds will set up an Irish company, which will borrow the money from the foreign investment company and then buy the properties as an Irish registered company.

4ensic15 · 31-03-2019 8:11pm

It would be contrary to EU law to stop EU companies from investing in Ireland. We left the era of protectionism behind nearly 50 years ago.

rosmoke · 31-03-2019 8:12pm

I honestly think the land it's the problem, I wanna buy land in the country side, build my own house, grow my own vegetables and work from home, my job allows me to do that.
But I can't because of stupid stupid and also deemed illegal by EU 'local needs'. So I have to stay in the city, make more money because expenses are higher and effectively drive the prices up for others who actually need to stay in the city.

myshirt · 31-03-2019 8:12pm

Ireland is not in a position to do this either. This whole country is built on other people's money. We need that money.

blindside88 · 31-03-2019 8:14pm

Everyone does not need to live in Dublin, there are a huge number of houses for sale around the country within commutable distance of Dublin for less than 200k.

It’s like comparing the average wage in the US to property prices in Manhattan or the average wage in the UK to property prices in London.

Even if you stopped non residents buying property the price would not drop, land costs x, the cost of building is y, the deleveloper also needs to make a profit, that determines what a house will be sold for in a market like Dublin

oceanman · 31-03-2019 8:37pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

It would be contrary to EU law to stop EU companies from investing in Ireland. We left the era of protectionism behind nearly 50 years ago.

more is the pity..

pablo128 · 31-03-2019 8:42pm

blindside88 wrote: »

Everyone does not need to live in Dublin, there are a huge number of houses for sale around the country within commutable distance of Dublin for less than 200k.

It’s like comparing the average wage in the US to property prices in Manhattan or the average wage in the UK to property prices in London.

Even if you stopped non residents buying property the price would not drop, land costs x, the cost of building is y, the deleveloper also needs to make a profit, that determines what a house will be sold for in a market like Dublin

These commuter towns you speak of cost around 400 euro extra in fuel per month to get to and from Dublin.

noodler · 31-03-2019 8:44pm

rosmoke wrote: »

I honestly think the land it's the problem, I wanna buy land in the country side, build my own house, grow my own vegetables and work from home, my job allows me to do that.
But I can't because of stupid stupid and also deemed illegal by EU 'local needs'. So I have to stay in the city, make more money because expenses are higher and effectively drive the prices up for others who actually need to stay in the city.

Could you explain why you can't do that?

Or at least why you think the EU stops you?

Find the post quite bizarre.

CollyFlower · 31-03-2019 8:49pm

The foreign investment companies are not the only ones buying up the property's, council's are doing it as well and giving them away for 'free' .

Eric Cartman · 31-03-2019 8:51pm

noodler wrote: »

Could you explain why you can't do that?

Or at least why you think the EU stops you?

Find the post quite bizarre.

the EU hasnt stopped them, the local councils and government policy has. Local needs planning is the biggest sham we have in this country, trying to stop people who don't want to live in a cramped housing estate from daring to build a house.

voluntary · 31-03-2019 8:56pm

chuchuchu wrote: »

I was thinking of how expensive it is to buy a house/apt in Dublin. When you factor in that a morgage can be only 3.5 times a persons salary and the average salary is 45000. Then for example a 3 bed house should cost about 200000 including the deposit. But I dont understand how the house prices are like double that price, I mean who could aford it?!

Dublin is specific. Look outside the two islands and you find that regular workers can hardly ever buy houses in big cities. Most people live in apartment blocks in cities.

4ensic15 · 31-03-2019 8:59pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the EU hasnt stopped them, the local councils and government policy has. Local needs planning is the biggest sham we have in this country, trying to stop people who don't want to live in a cramped housing estate from daring to build a house.

You mean trying to stop bungalow blight and ribbon development. Remote houses add to overall costs as services have to be provided to small numbers of individuals at enormous cost.

Wheeliebin30 · 31-03-2019 9:00pm

If you want to live in your dream house in the location you want to go and work hard or study hard or win the lotto.

Stop expecting the government funded by the tax payers to fulfill your dream.

Irish people need a smack of the real world.

Watching American sitcoms where each family lives in a suburb mansion with 5 cars.

L1011 · 31-03-2019 9:01pm

This isn't the Politics forum, some posts here already are not appropriate for the content of the forum

looksee · 31-03-2019 9:06pm

rosmoke wrote: »

I honestly think the land it's the problem, I wanna buy land in the country side, build my own house, grow my own vegetables and work from home, my job allows me to do that.
But I can't because of stupid stupid and also deemed illegal by EU 'local needs'. So I have to stay in the city, make more money because expenses are higher and effectively drive the prices up for others who actually need to stay in the city.

This can be interpreted as 'I saw a nice field for sale at an agricultural land price and wanted to buy it and put a house on it, but the planners would not let me'.

This is because people have in the past bought nice fields and stuck great big mansions on them to the detriment of the countryside.

In fact there are plenty of run down and semi derelict houses for sale on decent bits of land - an acre would be loads to grow a few veg on if you are also working - which you could buy and restore and grow your veg.

Sultan of Bling · 31-03-2019 9:15pm

How about making councils build homes for social housing instead of continually out bidding buyers for existing builds.

voluntary · 31-03-2019 9:15pm

Yeah, build remotely, then have kids in few years time, then demand public transport to take them to school, internet access, mobile coverage and stuff. Allowing people build houses in remote locations is expensive to the society in general.

Anteayer · 31-03-2019 9:16pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

It would be contrary to EU law to stop EU companies from investing in Ireland. We left the era of protectionism behind nearly 50 years ago.

Only if they're treating EU nationals differently to Irish nationals. You can ban non EU all you like, or you can restrict speculative purchase entirely through other measures - for example you could ban funds from buying existing property. Only allow them to invest in new build (expanding the stock).

This blaming EU regulations thing is straight out of the nonsense "blame someone else" "it's impossible" "Computa Says No" type mentality that brought the UK to think that the EU was responsible for Tory driven domestic policies and caused Brexit.

A bit of delving into what the EU actually says would be useful.

All the EU asks is that you don't discriminate against EU citizens and that you don't cause market distortion.

Also our Constitution specifically allows the government to intervene in the markets in circumstances where there's a need to rebalance things towards the greater good. Housing market regulations may be completely constitutional - how about we test it rather than just fall over before we even try!?

There's similar debate going on in Berlin and quite a few other cities around the EU.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180827/berlins-mayor-considering-banning-foreign-apartment-buyers-to-counter-spiralling-prices-but-are-they-really-to-blame

Diceicle · 31-03-2019 9:19pm

rosmoke wrote: »

I honestly think the land it's the problem, I wanna buy land in the country side, build my own house, grow my own vegetables and work from home, my job allows me to do that.
But I can't because of stupid stupid and also deemed illegal by EU 'local needs'. So I have to stay in the city, make more money because expenses are higher and effectively drive the prices up for others who actually need to stay in the city.

Is that the case Country-wide? I can understand it in high demand counties straddling Dublin, cork and Galway,

4ensic15 · 31-03-2019 9:29pm

Anteayer wrote: »

Only if they're treating EU nationals differently to Irish nationals. You can ban non EU all you like, or you can restrict speculative purchase entirely through other measures - for example you could ban funds from buying existing property. Only allow them to invest in new build (expanding the stock).

This blaming EU regulations thing is straight out of the nonsense "blame someone else" "it's impossible" "Computa Says No" type mentality that brought the UK to think that the EU was responsible for Tory driven domestic policies and caused Brexit.

A bit of delving into what the EU actually says would be useful.

All the EU asks is that you don't discriminate against EU citizens and that you don't cause market distortion.

Also our Constitution specifically allows the government to intervene in the markets in circumstances where there's a need to rebalance things towards the greater good. Housing market regulations may be completely constitutional - how about we test it rather than just fall over before we even try!?

There's similar debate going on in Berlin and quite a few other cities around the EU.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180827/berlins-mayor-considering-banning-foreign-apartment-buyers-to-counter-spiralling-prices-but-are-they-really-to-blame

Drivel. Free movement of capital is one of the four basic freedoms of the EU. Anyone with any kind of corporate presence in the EU can move capital in. Trying to prevent non EU coming in is finger in the dyke stuff, straight out of the nonsense "blame someone else" "it's impossible" "Computa Says No" type mentality that brought the UK to think that the EU was responsible for Tory driven domestic policies and caused Brexit.

The constitution is subject to EU law in situations where the EU has competence. Furthermore our Constitution does not specifically allow the government to intervene in the markets in circumstances where there's a need to rebalance things towards the greater good.

If you read the constitution, which would be a good idea before offering opinions based on it, you will notice that the word "market" is not mentioned in the constitution at all.

As for restricting investors to new build, what kind of distortion would that cause. They wouldn't invest because their second hand value would be nil. The whole object of investing is to turn a profit.

If people want to buy houses they just have to save up and pay market price.

OleRodrigo · 31-03-2019 9:30pm

Whats needed is good quality apartments in urban areas to rent from a reputable landlord with decent rights that accumulate the longer you're there - security in other words. More high density living with better public transport, less cars and scattered housing estates.

rosmoke · 31-03-2019 9:41pm

Diceicle wrote: »

Is that the case Country-wide? I can understand it in high demand counties straddling Dublin, cork and Galway,

Personally I think so and I don't mean let's all build houses in the middle of nowhere, I'm talking about a small percentage of people, people with remote jobs for example.
How many people do you have in your workplace who commute from Athlone/Carlow/Naas or Navan to Dublin? Hell, we're even talking about commutes of the likes of Kerry to Dublin on Boards. It's clear that this is not working, there is plenty of rural land that can be used inbetween Navan and Dublin for building but instead we have grass on it.

Small example:
I can build my own house with no mortgage: 2 containers, solar panels and a few other things I can add in time. Would cost me max 40k for a lovely home, with most things done be me. For this I wouldn't need my misses to work and I wouldn't need to earn a high salary.

But if I can't build my dream house, I'm gonna have to rent or outbid others, subsequently driving up prices.
And if you're asking why? It's because wife needs a job too so that we can afford to emigrate later to fulfil our dream.
Buying a derelict so that we can build it's essentially a hack/workaround and doesn't solve the problem.

And maybe not everyone can or want kids, so I wouldn't put all in the same basket, as in let's all stay in Dublin because you might have kids.

ted1 · 31-03-2019 11:13pm

It costs about 250k in labour and parts to build a 3 bed.

That’s with out land. If land was cheap I’d have a massive garden.

It’s not the foreigners fault.

Anteayer · 31-03-2019 11:17pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Drivel. Free movement of capital is one of the four basic freedoms of the EU. Anyone with any kind of corporate presence in the EU can move capital in. Trying to prevent non EU coming in is finger in the dyke stuff, straight out of the nonsense "blame someone else" "it's impossible" "Computa Says No" type mentality that brought the UK to think that the EU was responsible for Tory driven domestic policies and caused Brexit.

The constitution is subject to EU law in situations where the EU has competence. Furthermore our Constitution does not specifically allow the government to intervene in the markets in circumstances where there's a need to rebalance things towards the greater good.

If you read the constitution, which would be a good idea before offering opinions based on it, you will notice that the word "market" is not mentioned in the constitution at all.

As for restricting investors to new build, what kind of distortion would that cause. They wouldn't invest because their second hand value would be nil. The whole object of investing is to turn a profit.

If people want to buy houses they just have to save up and pay market price.

Have a read of Article 43 before you go around accusing me of writing "drivel"

2 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

Article 45

2 The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:–

i That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.

ii That the ownership and control of the material resources of the community may be so distributed amongst private individuals and the various classes as best to subserve the common good.

iii That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.

iv That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.

v That there may be established on the land in economic security as many families as in the circumstances shall be practicable.

3 1° The State shall favour and, where necessary, supplement private initiative in industry and commerce.

2° The State shall endeavour to secure that private enterprise shall be so conducted as to ensure reasonable efficien

The property rights in the constitution are heavily circumscribed by very strong social balance ideology.

rosmoke · 31-03-2019 11:26pm

rosmoke wrote: »

It costs about 250k in labour and parts to build a 3 bed.

That’s with out land. If land was cheap I’d have a massive garden.

It’s not the foreigners fault.

You can order a passive house and it will have a BER A or B for 25-35k. It's a lego, there's even a timelapse with a man that has done it himself on Youtube in county Wicklow. Not saying it's easy or for everyone, just saying it's for some and it can be had cheaper than 250k.

Eric Cartman · 31-03-2019 11:33pm

rosmoke wrote: »

You can order a passive house and it will have a BER A or B for 25-35k. It's a lego, there's even a timelapse with a man that has done it himself on Youtube in county Wicklow. Not saying it's easy or for everyone, just saying it's for some and it can be had cheaper than 250k.

please tell me where you can order a 3 bedroom passive house for 35k done to atleast second fix.

rosmoke · 31-03-2019 11:46pm

It takes you 10 seconds to google and find a couple of websites that deliver mostly to EU mainland countries for 2.000e, delivery I'm sure it can arranged to IE for a bit extra. Even it you're 100k or 200k all in, it's still cheaper than 250k. There are options out there.

Eric Cartman · 31-03-2019 11:48pm

rosmoke wrote: »

It takes you 10 seconds to google and find a couple of websites that deliver mostly to EU mainland countries for 2.000e, delivery I'm sure it can arranged to IE for a bit extra. Even it you're 100k or 200k all in, it's still cheaper than 250k. There are options out there.

100k, thats plausible. A lot of those prefab houses are not designed for how consistently wet our country is though. but perpetuating a myth of a 25k house when its going to be 12k just to get the foundations laid is a bit much.

voluntary · 31-03-2019 11:52pm

ted1 wrote: »

It costs about 250k in labour and parts to build a 3 bed.

That’s with out land. If land was cheap I’d have a massive garden.

It’s not the foreigners fault.

New 3-beds in Finglas were selling for that price

This including land, construction, developer and builder margins, marketing etc. I guess the overall profit was also in range of 20-25% on the whole project. And some percentage sold for social housing with discount (as per the current rules).
100k to build a 3-bed would be fair, plus interior which can be either reasonably priced or super expensive, depending on individual's wishes.

pablo128 · 01-04-2019 12:43am

voluntary wrote: »

New 3-beds in Finglas were selling for that price This including land, construction, developer and builder margins, marketing etc. I guess the overall profit was also in range of 20-25% on the whole project. And some percentage sold for social housing with discount (as per the current rules).
100k to build a 3-bed would be fair, plus interior which can be either reasonably priced or super expensive, depending on individual's wishes.

Yeah, my friends sister and her partner have just moved into a brand new good sized 3 bed in Finglas and they paid 250k.

Ireland should stop selling houses to non residents

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