Now Ye're Talking - to a forest manager

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 2:44pm

Nayeli Unimportant Dot wrote:

EU says it's 11%, average is around 30-40% wooded. And there is some suggestion commerical planting is the least environmentally diverse.

that's private forestry only id say !

"The forest estate is comprised of three quarters conifers and one quarter broadleaves" Department of agriculture food and the marine forest statistics 2014

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 2:46pm

Fluppen wrote:

I have a 98 acre farm and often wonder if it would be possible to plant a narrow strip of mixed forestry, some native, some commercial around the boundaries of the land as a buffer to the increasing noise and visual pollution caused by the building of new homes in the area. Would forestry companies be willing to establish and manage a long narrow winding strip stretching over quite a number of small fields or would it be too expensive and impractical to manage within the existing establishment, fencing and roadway grants?

you would probably have to fence off the areas yourself as they would not be covered under the Grant and premium scheme, it's worth a look, please note that the minimum width of a forest plot is 20 meters from tree to tree

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 3:05pm

BarryD2 wrote:

Can you elaborate on that? How does growth rate explain the different types of management that are apparent.

Because a forest here can be ready to harvest in 30 years as opposed to 60 70 80 years on the continent, there are other systems that are coming in, for example a continuous cover system where the forest is effectively thinned in perpetuity while managing natural regeneration and carrying out supplemental planting,

FitzElla · 22-08-2018 3:06pm

Ireland has a very low rate of forests with only 10% of land covered by forest compared to 33% on average for the EU28. A lot of this is due to historical reasons and while the rate has improved in the last 10-15 years, today a single species (Sitka spruce) makes up 52% of our forests.

Do you worry about any potential risks to Ireland's overall forest environment and bio-diversity by having essentially a single tree make up such a high proportion of our forests? Do you think more variety of trees should be planted, especially broadleafs?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 3:07pm

BarryD2 wrote:

We have a windier country and I can appreciate the issue of wind throw if you cut out a portion of a plantation. But is this not down to the likes of forest planners and managers. In how you design and make up a scheme of planting? Surely instead of planting 50,000 spruce or whatever, you could mix things up more and have species with different growth rates and at different stages of development, with varying resistance to wind etc.

exactly as you said many areas in the West are not suited to other systems as if you open up to much they will be on the floor

ForestFire · 22-08-2018 3:18pm

Can you imagine my excitement of seeing this thread and then the disappointment when I read the actually subject of the thread.:o

COYR

Anyway, someone ask about native tress, but I did not see anything spefic on Ash tress, and the desease spreading throughout Europe. Are our hurleys safe?

Deise abu

Thanks.... I'm out of teams and sports now

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 3:20pm

FitzElla wrote:

Do you worry about any potential risks to Ireland's overall forest environment and bio-diversity by having essentially a single tree make up such a high proportion of our forests? Do you think more variety of trees should be planted, especially broadleafs?

I think more varieties should be planted to improve things but at the end of the day as I said a farmer is not going to commit his own land to forestry unless it's economics are favourable, government would have to increase the premiums for Broadleaf forests to counteract the economics of spruce

Gaspode · 22-08-2018 3:28pm

Hi, when an area of forest is cut, is there a specified amount of time that should elapse before the area is cleared of stumps and other debris and perhaps ploughed?

Does the planting of trees ruin the land for any other use, or are most people planting on land that would be considered marginal anyway?

My son is starting a forestry management course this September, will you give him a job in a few years please? Pretty please?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 3:33pm

Gaspode wrote:

Hi, when an area of forest is cut, is there a specified amount of time that should elapse before the area is cleared of stumps and other debris and perhaps ploughed?

you have to plant the land again 2 years after it has been cut

Gaspode wrote:

My son is starting a forestry management course this September, will you give him a job in a few years please? Pretty please?

every dog has his day ! best of luck to him though

fepper · 22-08-2018 3:43pm

Would you think the sentence in the legalisation that by law you have to replant after clear fall,ie.keep your land in forestry forever is a huge turn off especially to farmers even though it might be left in forestry forever anyway without being forced by a law,it kind of creates a nanny state attitude.....

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 3:46pm

fepper wrote:

Would you think the sentence in the legalisation that by law you have to replant after clear fall,ie.keep your land in forestry forever is a huge turn off especially to farmers even though it might be left in forestry forever anyway without being forced by a law,it kind of creates a nanny state attitude.....

yeah I personally think it shouldn't be in law however I can see why it is there, the government has paid you vast sums of money to convert agricultural land to forestry and they don't want it to be just thrown back to agriculture when you have gotten the benefit of a clearfell from the land (which is significant)

fepper · 22-08-2018 3:58pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

yeah I personally think it shouldn't be in law however I can see why it is there, the government has paid you vast sums of money to convert agricultural land to forestry and they don't want it to be just thrown back to agriculture when you have gotten the benefit of a clearfell from the land (which is significant)

Thanks but in reality,the state doesn't own the land that grows the trees but is kind of leasing off the farmer for first fifteen years in the form of a premium payment and that's it with the added incentive that he can hopefully make money on the thinning/clearfell,but in reality is the states first intention to actually secure the growing rights on said land.....

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 4:10pm

fepper wrote:

Thanks but in reality,the state doesn't own the land that grows the trees but is kind of leasing off the farmer for first fifteen years in the form of a premium payment and that's it with the added incentive that he can hopefully make money on the thinning/clearfell,but in reality is the states first intention to actually secure the growing rights on said land.....

I'd disagree with you since the farmer owns the land and owns the timber on the land

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 4:12pm

murpho999 wrote:

Can you see the wood for the trees?

definitely

strandroad · 22-08-2018 4:29pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

Because a forest here can be ready to harvest in 30 years as opposed to 60 70 80 years on the continent, there are other systems that are coming in, for example a continuous cover system where the forest is effectively thinned in perpetuity while managing natural regeneration and carrying out supplemental planting,

That's good to hear, entire areas felled do feel shocking. Will this continuous cover system be noticeable (or just a small fraction)?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 7:46pm

strandroad wrote:

That's good to hear, entire areas felled do feel shocking. Will this continuous cover system be noticeable (or just a small fraction)?

It's hard to say and it will require expertise in that area because it ain't easy managing that system, I'd say it will be a small fraction coillte have a couple of CCF stands around the country and there are a few private ones too

Thepillowman · 22-08-2018 8:06pm

Hi, what surprises me about forestry in this country is the amount of waste left after clear fell. Locally some of this was baled up and a few loads were taken most of it is still on roadside a few years later. Is it not viable as biofuel or is there any plant that makes it into briquettes in this country? Or could some of it not be cut into shorter lengths and sold off for firewood on the roadside?

Cookie_Monster · 22-08-2018 8:21pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

BarryD2 wrote:

In France, Germany, Belgium etc., you see a different type of forest management. It's as if the forest is managed over decades and centuries even. They seem to thin and clear fell smaller plots at a time, so the overall effect is more like a patchwork. In Ireland, we seem to have more of a slash and burn type of management. A plantation is established, there is thinning but then the whole lot is often just cleared and replanted. This has a much greater impact on the landscape, environment and wildlife etc., and usually not a good one. Can the 'European' model be used in Ireland and/or why not?

because the growth rates for comercial timber in ireland is much better than in Europe, in fact the fastest growing forests in Europe are in ireland

Doesn't fast growth rates lead to poor quality timber though?

Why in your opinion is there so little interest for the govt / coillte / others in reforesting Ireland?

BarryD2 · 22-08-2018 8:50pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

exactly as you said many areas in the West are not suited to other systems as if you open up to much they will be on the floor

Yes.. but you haven't really addressed my query as to whether you as a forestry manager or planner/ advisor can adopt any strategy that would avoid this!!

Put simply, Irish forestry seems to be 'stuck' in the idea of managing the plantation as a conventional farm crop.

Is there anyone out there trying to manage plantations differently, so as to lessen the impacts on the landscape.

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

Because a forest here can be ready to harvest in 30 years as opposed to 60 70 80 years on the continent, there are other systems that are coming in, for example a continuous cover system where the forest is effectively thinned in perpetuity while managing natural regeneration and carrying out supplemental planting,

Well, maybe you have! This continuous cover system sounds like what we should ideally be aiming for.

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 8:55pm

Thepillowman wrote:

Hi, what surprises me about forestry in this country is the amount of waste left after clear fell. Locally some of this was baled up and a few loads were taken most of it is still on roadside a few years later. Is it not viable as biofuel or is there any plant that makes it into briquettes in this country? Or could some of it not be cut into shorter lengths and sold off for firewood on the roadside?

it comes down to economics really it costs you as much as you will make from bailing and extracting the brash from a clearfell, the downside to doing that is you are removing dead wood from the site which will host fungi and insects and decompose into the ground

WIT ran some studies a few years back looking into brash bailing and stump removal but it proved possible and very difficult as I recall

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 8:57pm

Cookie_Monster wrote:

Doesn't fast growth rates lead to poor quality timber though?

knotts in timber is what really affects the structural integrity of timber, the problem in ireland is that there is no premium paid for timber which has been pruned so as to minimise these knotts therefore there is no incentive for a forest owner to carry out that type of management

Melodeon · 22-08-2018 9:02pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

knotts in timber is what really affects the structural integrity of timber, the problem in ireland is that there is no premium paid for timber which has been pruned so as to minimise these knotts therefore there is no incentive for a forest owner to carry out that type of management

If I many butt in; I've been at Teagasc forestry events where sawmill procurement managers were quite happy to tell us 2 things:
1. They're delighted to get high pruned logs in as it yields them higher value timber products to sell.
2. They will pay not 1 single cent extra to the producer for these logs.

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 9:05pm

mirwillbeback wrote:

Would you have sold Collymore if you had been there in 1994?

for 8.5 million at the time ? to right I would have ! no way they could keep him with man u and Liverpool hunting him

Say my name · 22-08-2018 10:20pm

What's your knowledge about converting timber to Biochar like?
Have you even heard tell of Biochar before?
Is it something that's talked about in the forestry community?
How do you see Biochar and the forestry community progressing in the country?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 11:11pm

Say my name wrote:

What's your knowledge about converting timber to Biochar like? Have you even heard tell of Biochar before? Is it something that's talked about in the forestry community? How do you see Biochar and the forestry community progressing in the country?

nearly non existent that's an end product I grow the raw materials

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 22-08-2018 11:15pm

ForestFire wrote:

Anyway, someone ask about native tress, but I did not see anything spefic on Ash tress, and the desease spreading throughout Europe. Are our hurleys safe?

you'd be surprised to know that a lot of Hurley ash actually comes from England and I heard of it being imported from Romania also, don't be thinking your oul shtick is a native one !

Say my name · 23-08-2018 12:22am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

nearly non existent that's an end product I grow the raw materials

I might be breaking the rules of not asking a question.

But Biochar has also been used as a prevention aid for ash trees against ash die back.

Cookie_Monster · 23-08-2018 1:31am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

it comes down to economics really it costs you as much as you will make from bailing and extracting the brash from a clearfell

is that the same as swarf?, or is that more the leftover branches etc rather than the chippings from sawing. My wife current works for a papermill on the largest forestry plantation in the world and they reckon the swarf alone can generate a continuous 200MW of power. Anything like that in Ireland?

knotts in timber is what really affects the structural integrity of timber, the problem in ireland is that there is no premium paid for timber which has been pruned so as to minimise these knotts therefore there is no incentive for a forest owner to carry out that type of management

faster growth means less dense though so only suitable for cheap low end product, no?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 23-08-2018 7:47am

Say my name wrote:

But Biochar has also been used as a prevention aid for ash trees against ash die back.

ah I remember seeing that on country file ! not practical though

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 23-08-2018 7:55am

Cookie_Monster wrote:

faster growth means less dense though so only suitable for cheap low end product, no?

faster growth rates do not determine density in spruce as they are not corolated, growing faster just means more wood is produced in a growing season

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 23-08-2018 7:59am

Cookie_Monster wrote:

is that the same as swarf?, or is that more the leftover branches etc rather than the chippings from sawing. My wife current works for a papermill on the largest forestry plantation in the world and they reckon the swarf alone can generate a continuous 200MW of power. Anything like that in Ireland?

we do carry out biomass harvesting on sites that does remove the brash/swarf, it is chipped and transported to ESB power station where it is burned to generate electricity, however you can only carry this out on sites where the ground bearing capacity is good enough to hold up machines (without the brash to drive on)

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 23-08-2018 8:03am

august12 wrote:

You have more or less answered it for me, I didn't realise the profit was that high from clear felling to replanting, that gives approx, 80 to 90% profit, have recently purchased 9.5ha plantation giving approx, 4500 euro grant, this was an accidental purchase as came as part of farm purchase, planted 9 years now, any idea what the potential income at clearfell would be? Don't have a forestry advisor, should I appoint one now or wait until first thinning, whenever that would be,

is it planted with Broadleaf or coniferous trees ?

_Brian · 23-08-2018 8:11am

You obviously see all types of land planted, do you see good land being planted and think it’s a shame that it’s lost to farming forever ?

tabby aspreme · 23-08-2018 8:11am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

you'd be surprised to know that a lot of Hurley ash actually comes from England and I heard of it being imported from Romania also, don't be thinking your oul shtick is a native one !

As Ash Dieback is more prominent all across Europe, I would think that the supply of 25-35 year old, healthy ash for hurleys will dry up in the next 10 years, Anything planted in Ireland or Europe in the last 15 years will not survive.

timfromtang · 23-08-2018 9:05am

challengemaster wrote: »

Does the forest manager shít in the woods?

if he does he'd better bury it.

tim

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 23-08-2018 2:25pm

_Brian wrote: »

You obviously see all types of land planted, do you see good land being planted and think it’s a shame that it’s lost to farming forever ?

I suppose it depends on what your definition of good ground is ?

in general i would always advise people to plant their marginal land, you know typically dominated by rushes ect nobody wants to see tillage fields planted

but in general we need to get away from the concept of the farmer loosing this ground forever as you said, a forest is a crop just like grass wheat or barley and should be treated as such the farmer does not loose anything he gains a crop of trees which generates money and to be fair it is a bit more predictable than if you plant a field of wheat or raise a suckler cow you do not know if you will make money untill you cut the crop or bring the cow to the mart/slaughter

tabby aspreme wrote: »

As Ash Dieback is more prominent all across Europe, I would think that the supply of 25-35 year old, healthy ash for hurleys will dry up in the next 10 years, Anything planted in Ireland or Europe in the last 15 years will not survive.

Teagasc are running trials trying to find resistant provinances of ash to grow so there is hope yet !

timfromtang wrote: »

if he does he'd better bury it.

tim

of coarse tim

timfromtang · 24-08-2018 12:05am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

Italian Alder is a lovely tree but the money is in spruce forests

Hmmmm?
money in the spruce forests????
Yes I'd agree for those who use contractors and forestry companies, spruce is a money maker.
BUT!!!
For a man/woman who likes to do the forestry work themselves, for folk who wish to add value to the timber before selling....
THEN I'd suggest that spruce is FAR from ideal.
For example
Larch planted as a nurse to oak at home here in Tang has proved profitable and easy to add value to, with just a chainsaw round straining posts can be produced yielding perhaps 10 euro per tree, as we have a small sawmill we also make sawn posts, and rough boards for trailer floors sheds etc.

Sycamore grows quickly and makes wonderful firewood, at 75 euro for a builders bag full seasoned thats far more money than would be yielded selling the thinnings, and with a relatively short rotation for hardwoods will yield valuable timber in your childrens lifetimes.
etc etc

Further to this I'd suggest that although making money is important, what we are doing as foresters is growing trees, and so many folk in Ireland seem to have lost sight of this. It is vital when planting that we have a vision for the end use of the timber.

tim

timfromtang · 24-08-2018 12:16am

Say my name wrote: »

What's your knowledge about converting timber to Biochar like?
Have you even heard tell of Biochar before?
Is it something that's talked about in the forestry community?
How do you see Biochar and the forestry community progressing in the country?

Hi Say,
I make biochar here in Tang its a byproduct from our charcoal production, we make BBQ fuel, Biochar, and High fixed Carbon content 25-50mm graded forge fuel for blacksmiths.

tim

24-08-2018 12:24am

Thanks for doing this.

Do you think there could be an opportunity to create public walks and cycle paths (Greenways even) through forests in the future if the local governments were to perhaps offer to collaborate with private or public forestry services or will forestry land remain somewhat private land? (Even on the outskirts of woodland?)

timfromtang · 24-08-2018 12:24am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

nearly non existent that's an end product I grow the raw materials

Should the grower of the raw materials not have significant knowledge of the likely end uses for his product???

Perhaps you know something about logs for veneer???
the best veneer logs make 5 figure sums.

What about end uses for more typical hardwood logs? what do you know about the requirements of the joinery/furniture trade?

Lawson Cypress for example, end use for this? Known as Port Orford Cedar it is a preferred wood for making arrow shafts for recreational archers, is rot resistant, planes and finishes beautifully, smells wonderful when cut, ideal for coffins, blanket boxes etc etc.

tim

timfromtang · 24-08-2018 12:29am

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

you'd be surprised to know that a lot of Hurley ash actually comes from England and I heard of it being imported from Romania also, don't be thinking your oul shtick is a native one !

Please God, Please God, Please do not allow the dastardly emerald ash borer to hitch a lift on one of those imported hurley butts.

The Genus Fraxinus (ash) is under significant stress world wide, those that are resistant to ASh dieback are more susceptible to ash borer and vice versa.
Fortunately (for our ash) there is a significantly reduced population of Ash between us and the ash borer thanks to dieback in europe, but I understand that the emerald ash borer has thus far made it about 1000km west of Moscow (it got to Moscow from the US).

I have noticed that this summer was not too bad on the dieback front, perhaps that long hot spell dried out the leaf petioles on the forest floor too much and inhibited significant spore production?

tim

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 24-08-2018 7:40am

Deleted User wrote:

Do you think there could be an opportunity to create public walks and cycle paths (Greenways even) through forests in the future if the local governments were to perhaps offer to collaborate with private or public forestry services or will forestry land remain somewhat private land? (Even on the outskirts of woodland?)

there is a department scheme called the neighborwood scheme which is designed to do just that

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 24-08-2018 8:01am

timfromtang wrote:

Hmmmm? money in the spruce forests???? Yes I'd agree for those who use contractors and forestry companies, spruce is a money maker. BUT!!! For a man/woman who likes to do the forestry work themselves, for folk who wish to add value to the timber before selling.... THEN I'd suggest that spruce is FAR from ideal. For example Larch planted as a nurse to oak at home here in Tang has proved profitable and easy to add value to, with just a chainsaw round straining posts can be produced yielding perhaps 10 euro per tree, as we have a small sawmill we also make sawn posts, and rough boards for trailer floors sheds etc.

yeah perfectly true if you are devoting most or all your time to the forest but that's not reasonable for someone who has a different job to attend to

Deleted User wrote:

Do you think there could be an opportunity to create public walks and cycle paths (Greenways even) through forests in the future if the local governments were to perhaps offer to collaborate with private or public forestry services or will forestry land remain somewhat private land? (Even on the outskirts of woodland?)

there is a neighborwood scheme to basicly create an amenity forest for people to use

timfromtang wrote:

Should the grower of the raw materials not have significant knowledge of the likely end uses for his product???

I am aware of its existence that's enough, it's like saying someone who grows malting barley should know how to make whiskey

on the joinery I would talk with them to see what spec they wanted it cut to but generally 20cm top diameter and cut into 4.9 3.7 3.1 lengths unless stated otherwise by the joinery, I actually sold some of my own oak to a joinery beside me a couple of years ago

Dial Hard · 24-08-2018 12:31pm

timfromtang wrote: »

Further to this I'd suggest that although making money is important, what we are doing as foresters is growing trees, and so many folk in Ireland seem to have lost sight of this. It is vital when planting that we have a vision for the end use of the timber.

Couldn't agree with this more. The State forestry body should have an environmental focus, not a commercial one, imo.

I read this article a few months ago and Coillte does not come out of it looking well.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/native-trees-cover-just-2-of-ireland-how-can-this-be-increased-1.3553824

To the Forest Manager - do you honestly, hand-on-heart think Coillte are currently operating environmental & ecological best practice?

Peppa Cig · 24-08-2018 3:35pm

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA wrote: »

TheBully wrote:

If you could only ever look at one species of tree for the rest of your days what would it be?

Italian Alder is a lovely tree but the money is in spruce forests

Hi, - lovely tree
Is Italian Alder deep rooting. Will it interfere with my geothermal pipes at 800mm deep?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 24-08-2018 7:16pm

Dial Hard wrote:

To the Forest Manager - do you honestly, hand-on-heart think Coillte are currently operating environmental & ecological best practice?

first I don't work with coillte and second there have been a succession of CEO's in coillte who push to harvest younger and younger timber (as stated in the article) to make the figures look good so they can move on to better jobs and in doing so there will be a land slide in the production of timber coming from it in the next 5 years or so which will be great for forest owners as coillte effectively acts as a monopoly who dictates the price paid for timber so as a forester who acts on behalf of privatly owned forests I do not like it

in terms of environmental practices they adhere to the environmental guidelines set down by the forest service which is rigourous and as said before they are randomly inspected annually with regards to their dual certification (FSC and PEFC)

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 24-08-2018 7:17pm

Peppa Cig wrote:

Hi, - lovely tree Is Italian Alder deep rooting. Will it interfere with my geothermal pipes at 800mm deep?

you could plant some poplar trees shallow rooting and fast growing, just don't put them near roads or buildings

flatty · 24-08-2018 8:59pm

I've 30 acres which I don't farm, but it's reasonable land in the west of Ireland. I love forests.
How much would it yield roughly if I put it over to forest?

I'm a Forest Manager, AMA · 25-08-2018 10:32am

flatty wrote:

I've 30 acres which I don't farm, but it's reasonable land in the west of Ireland. I love forests. How much would it yield roughly if I put it over to forest?

in terms of premiums anything from â‚¬6300 to â‚¬8250 per year with no set up cost, you'd have to let a forester walk the land

flatty · 25-08-2018 3:56pm

Thanks.

Now Ye're Talking - to a forest manager

Comments