Can you afford a new electric car next year?

Shefwedfan · 20-07-2019 10:15am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What we really need is a proper calculator where you put in your current vehicle and useage details and you get a proper calculation of what you is the best choice for you. Most of the manufacturers use zero % depreciation in their calculations.

It's funny reading EV preachers talking about them saving €3k a year in fuel/tax savings but forgetting their car is losing €5k plus a year in depreciation and they have been completely brainwashed like fools in to thinking the car grew on a tree at the bottom of their garden.

I bought my mother a Leaf 2 years ago for under 7k, I could sell today for 8k+ today, with 30k km more on it and 2 years older

I bought my eGolf 3 years ago and lost 4K when I sold it recently, that’s was with putting on 60k Kim’s on it.....a combustion Golf loses 4K per year as a guideline without even taking into consideration mileage

So what’s this about depreciation?

beggars_bush · 20-07-2019 10:36am

My next door neighbour recently bought an EV

He can drive it to work where there is a bank of chargers, charge it up while at work then the charge easily gets him home and back the next day.

Can do a slower charge over the weekend or put it charging in town when doing the shopping.

InTheShadows · 20-07-2019 11:09am

Black_Knight wrote: »

Of course you wouldn't.

That's correct.

beauf · 20-07-2019 11:22am

kceire wrote: »

... I wouldn’t expect to buy a brand new car today and for it not to depreciate.....every car I’ve owned and 90% of them have appreciated....

Were none of them new cars?

Effectively thats what used car dealers do.
Sell a car for more than they buy it for.

Gumbo · 20-07-2019 11:58am

beauf wrote: »

Were none of them new cars?

Effectively thats what used car dealers do.
Sell a car for more than they buy it for.

Correct. I’ve never bought new before. Would love to some day.

Zubeneschamali · 20-07-2019 2:27pm

Main car is a diesel Octavia, can't see an EV replacing that for a few years, anyhow.

But the other car is a Mini Cooper and there's an electric one out next March, I may go for one of those.

Black_Knight · 20-07-2019 4:55pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Main car is a diesel Octavia, can't see an EV replacing that for a few years, anyhow.

But the other car is a Mini Cooper and there's an electric one out next March, I may go for one of those.

Hondas new compact electric looks pretty funky.

Skatedude · 21-07-2019 12:09am

MightyMunster wrote: »

Maybe just plug it in before you go to bed? Depending on the car you should get 30-50km of charge per hour.

Or if you drive 24hrs a day you can use a fast charger where you can get up to 200km of charge in less time than filling a diesel and going to the toilet.

Plug it in where? Way too many people don't have a driveway? I wonder how many thousands of cars use on street parking in Dublin alone. all my area is pay and display.

beauf · 21-07-2019 12:22am

Skatedude wrote: »

Plug it in where? Are you assuming most people have a driveway? I wonder how many thousands of cars use on street parking in Dublin alone. That's why electric cars can't replace ICE for many years to come.

All you need is more street and petrol station chargers to solve that, and bigger range so you charge less often.

Gumbo · 21-07-2019 12:35pm

Skatedude wrote: »

Plug it in where? Way too many people don't have a driveway? I wonder how many thousands of cars use on street parking in Dublin alone. all my area is pay and display.

Then an EV may not suit those people. But you have off street parking and pay and display in your area so your grand.

Zubeneschamali · 21-07-2019 1:01pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Hondas new compact electric looks pretty funky.

I don't see an actual date when it goes on sale.

The Mini order book opens in October for delivery from next March.

corks finest · 21-07-2019 1:31pm

Prius have a 7 seater ( estate) AFAIK definitely saw one on DD lately, hybrid import/Honda do a hybrid 7 seater also(another import) check the Jap importers on DD Dublin-Declan Gill motors santry has a lot of Jap imports, contact him with your query say he would sort you ( decent skin)

Mad_maxx · 21-07-2019 2:55pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

With the planned changes really the question should be can you buy a new diesel before 2020...

I went into VW and the Tiguan Allspace is about 400-500 on PCP if you can get one in stock. If you order one it wont arrive till next year and it will be over 800 per month on PCP due to the new regulations.

If I was doing high mileage and I thought I wanted a diesel I would be doing everything to buy one now before the new tax system comes into play. Come next year your diesel car will probably increase in value and not go down....

Reasons
Well the Irish love a diesel
and they love nothing better than cheap tax

A car registered this year is not going to suddenly jump it tax band next year. The same as 2008, a car bought in 2007 didnt increase or decrease, it just stayed the same. The 2008 model had to use the new system.....

You won't get a 7 seater BEV. If you could I would have one, VW will be the first to bring it out by the looks of it and it will be 2023 before we see here.....

What's to stop the government jacking up the tax on existing diesel suv, s?

corks finest · 21-07-2019 6:57pm

Mad_maxx wrote:

What's to stop the government jacking up the tax on existing diesel suv, s?

Good point -this FG government liable to do anything with Leo the Langer in charge

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 7:00pm

Not sure. Just at the very early reflection and research phase and it may be a bit longer than 2020.

gzoladz · 21-07-2019 7:14pm

Can afford one, yes. I would like to buy one but can't convince myself it is the right option.
We don't use it during the week, only weekends for average 100km trips (often more) to remote locations where the is no charging infrastructure.

I don't think it would be practical.

Leonard Hofstadter · 21-07-2019 7:28pm

I can afford to buy one, but I don't want to.

_Kaiser_ · 22-07-2019 7:41pm

I'll probably start thinking about changing mine next year at some point when she hits 10 years old and over 400k km on the clock.

But it won't be for an EV.

1. I don't have the stupid money needed for a new one, nor do I want to be stuck paying thousands again for a new battery a few years in with a second hand one.

2. I rent what is effectively a duplex apartment (but pitched as a 2 bed end of terrace) so don't have a driveway to install a charger. Why would I pay (landlord certainly wouldn't) to install one? Running cables isn't an option over the shared parking area at the back.
I'd imagine most people renting/owning apartments are the same. No charging points at work either (business park outside the town).

3. I already have an hour's commute each way per day without stopping off for whatever to top up the charge as well.

4. When I can get basically my current A6 with the same power, comfort and range for the same used car money as I paid for this one then I'll consider it. For the foreseeable future that's not going to happen.

5. Maybe most importantly... the free ride for electric won't last much longer, so anyone buying one because they think it's gonna be cheaper running costs than ICE is probably making a mistake. The motor tax lost from older ICE is already hitting the coffers. If more switch to electric it'll have to be made up somewhere.. Expect extra ESB levies or something too if they take off in any real numbers.

This current push towards electric is all about tokenism. As usual in Ireland it's more about being seen to be doing something than actually doing something meaningful. We're a small island with a population less than most major cities. Just as when the Greens messed with the motor tax system in 2008, the real driver here is money. Money for our motor "industry". Money for the insurers who will price older cars off the road (they're already at it), and money for the Government in increased VRT and tax.

Won't do much for the average Irish motorist though. For the most part, those who would benefit most from an electric at the moment are probably also those who could easily do without one anyway.

beauf · 22-07-2019 8:12pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You have a ton of choice with ICE both new and second hand. You don't with the EV's were being encouraged to buy. If people don't buy new ones then the governments plan falls to pieces as there's no second hand cars for the ordinary man in the street.
So yes a lot of people need to buy a new one.

This isn't any different than 2008 when lots of people who didn't buy a new 2008 just kept running an older car with older more polluting tech. We just taxed the people who could afford to play for a new car less, and those who couldn't afford it, we taxed more. That really hasn't changed. That line in the sand at 2008 still exists in the used market today.

We'll have the same in a few years between hybrids and non hybrids at this year 2018.

Shefwedfan · 22-07-2019 8:24pm

_Kaiser_ electric is not for you and diesel will still be for sale for at least another 10 years new and probably another 10 at least after second hand

beauf · 22-07-2019 8:25pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'll probably start thinking about changing mine next year at some point when she hits 10 years old and over 400k km on the clock.

But it won't be for an EV.

1. I don't have the stupid money needed for a new one, nor do I want to be stuck paying thousands again for a new battery a few years in with a second hand one.

2. I rent what is effectively a duplex apartment (but pitched as a 2 bed end of terrace) so don't have a driveway to install a charger. Why would I pay (landlord certainly wouldn't) to install one? Running cables isn't an option over the shared parking area at the back.
I'd imagine most people renting/owning apartments are the same. No charging points at work either (business park outside the town).

3. I already have an hour's commute each way per day without stopping off for whatever to top up the charge as well.

4. When I can get basically my current A6 with the same power, comfort and range for the same used car money as I paid for this one then I'll consider it. For the foreseeable future that's not going to happen.

5. Maybe most importantly... the free ride for electric won't last much longer, so anyone buying one because they think it's gonna be cheaper running costs than ICE is probably making a mistake. The motor tax lost from older ICE is already hitting the coffers. If more switch to electric it'll have to be made up somewhere.. Expect extra ESB levies or something too if they take off in any real numbers.

This current push towards electric is all about tokenism. As usual in Ireland it's more about being seen to be doing something than actually doing something meaningful. We're a small island with a population less than most major cities. Just as when the Greens messed with the motor tax system in 2008, the real driver here is money. Money for our motor "industry". Money for the insurers who will price older cars off the road (they're already at it), and money for the Government in increased VRT and tax.

Won't do much for the average Irish motorist though. For the most part, those who would benefit most from an electric at the moment are probably also those who could easily do without one anyway.

There is more to cheaper running than tax and fuel costs. Do you know how much it costs to fill a ev at home? Is anyone replacing batteries? Why?

There is local pollution in towns and cites that can be improved. Regardless of what happens globally.

There are people who are the opposite to you, have their own drive, mostly do short journeys and low mileage.

There a big jump from its not suitable to you, or most. To its suitable for no one.

I was asking someone recently who is changing their car next year what they will get. The one with the best finance deal was the answer. Fuel and size of car was irrelevant.

PsychoPete · 22-07-2019 8:29pm

Unless I can get the likes of a A6,5 series etc then I'll consider buying one until then electric is a no go for me

Shefwedfan · 22-07-2019 8:50pm

PsychoPete wrote: »

Unless I can get the likes of a A6,5 series etc then I'll consider buying one until then electric is a no go for me

This will be the A6: https://www.volkswagen.ie/e-mobility/en/id-family/id-vizzion-electric-car.html

Remember because they are electric they can do more, so the eGolf replacement,ID, will have the interior space of the Passat

ShadowHearth · 22-07-2019 10:13pm

Well, I am on PCP right now and it ends next year in May. So plan is I will try to upgrade next year around March.

Budget 30k ish if I go PCP again.

So I just checked donedeal if anything in my budget.

New I could only pick up Renault Zoe. Wow. No thank you.
Second hand? Not much. Older Leaf with small battery?
I do 130km for work. Can't install charger outside the house and no chargers at work. As someone mentioned here already: I spend 2h on the road a day already and I won't spend more time charging the car too.

On the other hand, I will change to EV at some point, but first I will get my last petrol baby seal killer.

So voted No.

CiniO · 22-07-2019 10:15pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just trying to gauge what boardies can really buy into this brave new age of motoring. I know we need a 7 seater in the house and there are no options without spending the price of a reasonably priced house.

Just to compare with different market- Poland:

I.e. usable second hand car - Ireland from €1000 - Poland from €2000.
Brand new Dacia Sandero - Ireland from €11,000 - Poland from €7,000
Brand new Dacia Duster - Ireland from €17,400 - Poland from €9,400
Brand new Ford Focus - Ireland from €22,800 - Poland from €17,200
Brand new Honda Civic - Ireland from €24,250 - Poland from €17,500
Brand new Hyundai Tucson - Ireland from €27,500 - Poland from €18,100

and now to Electric.

Brand new Nissan Leaf - Ireland from €28,700 - Poland from €37,100
Brand new Hyundai Ioniq Electric - Ireland from €29,750 - Poland from €38,700
Brand new Hyundai Kona Electric - Ireland from €38,100 - Poland from €39,100

Minimum annual wage - Ireland €20,000 - Poland €6275
Average salary - Ireland €39,600 - Poland €14,350

So looking at it, in Ireland some EV models can actually be seen as an alternative for ICE, as purchase cost is similar between them.

In Poland difference in purchase price between EV and ICE is huge, not to even mention cost of EV comparing to minimum/average salary.

theguzman · 23-07-2019 1:04am

I would buy an electric car when it will have 1,000km range or else a much faster recharge time of say <15 minutes for at least 200 kms range, currently lithium ion battery tech is totally unsuitable and too limited in its lifespan, something like a supercapacitor is what will be needed, every truck running on electric would make a far bigger contribution to pollution etc.

Beast4mdaeast · 23-07-2019 1:09am

Electric car prices are Shocking !! Zzzzzzzz :-D

24-07-2019 2:45pm

Only know one person with an EV, got it for free from an ESB raffle.

Could afford? Yes
Would I ever consider an EV? No

That EV's are environmentally cleaner is a huge corperate driven myth. Present diesels have a much lower carbon footprint when consider that EV's are charged from an outdated/poor efficiency mostly fossil based power generation system where over half the power generated is lost in transmission and distribution before it gets to your charging point.

Once folks begin to realise the battery will have to be changed out after a few years (at huge cost), any second hand/trade in value will be wiped out.

The idea of young children working in horrific conditions in Cobalt mines in Congo to feed the worlds hunger for electric cars (and mobile phones), goes against the grain for me also.

My current family vehicle, Discovery 5, modern high efficiency diesel is giving better milage than any vehicle I have ever owned.

Gumbo · 24-07-2019 2:46pm

theguzman wrote: »

I would buy an electric car when it will have 1,000km range or else a much faster recharge time of say <15 minutes for at least 200 kms range, currently lithium ion battery tech is totally unsuitable and too limited in its lifespan, something like a supercapacitor is what will be needed, every truck running on electric would make a far bigger contribution to pollution etc.

Your in luck. The Tesla Model 3 superchargers (V3) can add 75 miles in 5 mins.

Gumbo · 24-07-2019 2:51pm

323 wrote: »

Once folks begin to realise the battery will have to be changed out after a few years (at huge cost), any second hand/trade in value will be wiped out.

Roughly how long do these batteries last before having to change them?

zilog_jones · 24-07-2019 3:03pm

Well there are Leafs from 2011 that are still on the road with their original batteries, so longer than that.

Gumbo · 24-07-2019 3:37pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

Well there are Leafs from 2011 that are still on the road with their original batteries, so longer than that.

I know that

But I don't think the other poster is aware of EV use in the real world.

zilog_jones · 24-07-2019 3:59pm

The reality is we don't know how long they'll last - but most manufacturers have at least 8 year warranties on the batteries, it's likely they'll last longer than that, and most people buying a new car now probably won't keep it that long either way.

"A few years" suggests something probably less than a decade, but either way it's typical baseless pub talk bollocks.

Also, regarding "huge cost" - yes, right now it can cost a lot, because nobody's really doing it besides main dealers, simply because failures are so rare. Once the time comes that these batteries are reaching the end of their useful life, there will be more people out there in the business of reconditioning and third-party replacements, and costs will go down. It's already happening with Prius traction batteries, but typically only once they're beyond 12 years old (even then, not so much in our temperate climate) - and this is Ni-MH chemistry so not that relevant to what's in EVs.

Black_Knight · 24-07-2019 4:06pm

323 wrote: »

Only know one person with an EV, got it for free from an ESB raffle.

Could afford? Yes
Would I ever consider an EV? No

That EV's are environmentally cleaner is a huge corperate driven myth. Present diesels have a much lower carbon footprint when consider that EV's are charged from an outdated/poor efficiency mostly fossil based power generation system where over half the power generated is lost in transmission and distribution before it gets to your charging point.

Once folks begin to realise the battery will have to be changed out after a few years (at huge cost), any second hand/trade in value will be wiped out.

The idea of young children working in horrific conditions in Cobalt mines in Congo to feed the worlds hunger for electric cars (and mobile phones), goes against the grain for me also.

My current family vehicle, Discovery 5, modern high efficiency diesel is giving better milage than any vehicle I have ever owned.

Where do you think the power powering the oil refineries come from?
Sure, the carbon footprint in building a new EV is currently larger than building an ICE vehicle, but everything afterwards has a miniscule carbon footprint compared to ICE.

MetzgerMeister · 24-07-2019 4:30pm

If I could afford to buy a brand new EV next year I'd save the money and wait until I could afford an M4

661653-electric-vehicles-unclean-every-speed-electric-cars-dont-solve-automobiles.2-lg.jpg

beauf · 24-07-2019 4:31pm

323 wrote: »

...when consider that EV's are charged from an outdated/poor efficiency mostly fossil based power generation system...

Its changing.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-second-highest-in-europe-for-wind-energy-910442.html

Black_Knight · 24-07-2019 7:18pm

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

If I could afford to buy a brand new EV next year I'd save the money and wait until I could afford an M4

Again, there's baloobas amounts of electricity used in refining oil for your diesel/petrol. Electricity which comes from the same "dirty" source as electric cars are powered from*. So electric cars cut out the needless oil refinement and waste of electricity in that process.

*EV + solar panels = clean energy.

Shefwedfan · 24-07-2019 7:43pm

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

If I could afford to buy a brand new EV next year I'd save the money and wait until I could afford an M4

I was looking at bonkers.ie, standard 12 month contract up....most of the companies has a green energy only option

So that image doesn't seem to be 100%correct now does it.....

PaulRyan97 · 24-07-2019 9:31pm

323 wrote: »

That EV's are environmentally cleaner is a huge corperate driven myth. Present diesels have a much lower carbon footprint when consider that EV's are charged from an outdated/poor efficiency mostly fossil based power generation system where over half the power generated is lost in transmission and distribution before it gets to your charging point.

Actually, what are you saying is indeed, the corporate myth. On average an electric car will produce around half the total emissions of its combustion engines counterpart over the course of its life. Yes, the manufacture of an electric car generally does result in more emissions than the manufacture of a combustion engine car. It can be up to 50% more depending on the size of the battery required.

However, we don't just manufacture cars and do nothing with them, we drive them. That's where EVs pull wildly ahead of ICE cars. It normally only takes a few months of driving before the EV has offset it's production emissions and is cleaner than an ICE. Even in a country where most of it's electricity is generated from fossil fuels they will still massively reduce emissions over the course of their lifespans. You have to remember that with ICE cars, the fuel has to be extracted in the Middle East/Canada/US, brought by trains/trucks to ports, loaded onto massive containers and shipped halfway around the world, refined and then transported to filling stations. It's an incredibly carbon intensive process.

The batteries in these cars can actually be recycled and used to make new batteries for further EV production, domestic energy storage or just simply used for their materials. An EV can still be cutting environmental emissions well after the car has been scrapped.

323 wrote: »

Once folks begin to realise the battery will have to be changed out after a few years (at huge cost), any second hand/trade in value will be wiped out.

This is just flat out wrong. There are Tesla Model S' from 2012 and Nissan Leafs from 2011 on the road with their batteries essentially operating the same as when they were new. Yes, the ability to hold charge will diminish over the years but most guarantee at least 70-80% capacity for 8-10 years or 150,000km+.

323 wrote: »

The idea of young children working in horrific conditions in Cobalt mines in Congo to feed the worlds hunger for electric cars (and mobile phones), goes against the grain for me also.

Yes cobalt is an issue, granted most batteries now only use it in small amounts, < 3% in a Model 3 battery. They're working on replacing it but I do see it still being present in batteries for at least the next 5 years. However if you think the oil industry is without human rights abuses then boy then I have a shock for you bud. That does in no way excuse the the problem in the Congo though.

323 wrote: »

My current family vehicle, Discovery 5, modern high efficiency diesel is giving better milage than any vehicle I have ever owned.

That car gets about 30mpg, that's truly awful even for a car that size. A VW Touareg can manage about 35mpg even with it's 3.0 V6, an F-Pace can do 35-38mpg. If that's the most efficient vehicle you've ever owned, I shudder to think what you were driving previously, an Abrams tank?

Shefwedfan · 24-07-2019 9:52pm

323 wrote: »

The idea of young children working in horrific conditions in Cobalt mines in Congo to feed the worlds hunger for electric cars (and mobile phones), goes against the grain for me also.

So you dont own a watch? mobile? laptop? etc etc

Car companies are one of the few who have signed up to get cobalt sourced from correct companies

The other devices I listed above have not......

So that grain is goes against, better starting throwing out all your electrical devices

Can you afford a new electric car next year?

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