State pension cancelled

liam00 · 24-04-2017 11:15am #1

Hi.
My father received a letter from social welfare stating that my mothers pension was being cancelled and looking for 147k in back payment
.he had a joint account with her on it and she wasn't part of his business. They say she was and not entitled to a pension...it's with the accountant at min but he's 85 and don't have that money but has 130 acres.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 24-04-2017 11:51am

liam00 wrote: »

Hi.
My father received a letter from social welfare stating that my mothers pension was being cancelled and looking for 147k in back payment
.he had a joint account with her on it and she wasn't part of his business. They say she was and not entitled to a pension...it's with the accountant at min but he's 85 and don't have that money but has 130 acres.

I assume your accountant would be responsible for giving your father professional advice. we don't have the information to give professional advice.

if your mother was in receipt of non contributory pension your father's income would have counted against her means test.

this may or may not apply in your mother's case.

if she shouldn't have received the pension it will have to be paid back.

Peregrinus · 27-04-2017 4:51am

Even if there's a liablity to repay the pension, it looks to me as if it would be the mother's liablity, and it's not clear that the father or his assets would be at risk here. Worth exploring, anyway.

I agree with Ciaran_Boyle. This is not something you want to handle on the basis of what is said on an internet forumby anonymous people who know nothing about the case beyond a three-line summary which notably omits key facts.

It's with the accountant at the moment. Listen to the accountant. Be ready to go to a lawyer sooner rather than later.

alig123aileen · 18-06-2017 2:32am

You should set out your complaint to the freedom of information officer in dept social welfare their website gives an email address for him. Ask for a copy of your file under freedom of information . When you do this a higher executive officer needs to review your file and I think you will find they may reverse Their decision very fast. Tell them you intend to take a case under data protection as they relied on incorrect personal data to come to a decision on ceasing the pension. Happy to help further if you need me to I hav experience with this. appallng to send a letter like this to an 85 year old without at least a courtesy phone call beforehand what is happening in this country? I hope your folks are ok after this terrible event.

alig123aileen · 18-06-2017 2:32am

You should set out your complaint to the freedom of information officer in dept social welfare their website gives an email address for him. Ask for a copy of your file under freedom of information . When you do this a higher executive officer needs to review your file and I think you will find they may reverse Their decision very fast. Tell them you intend to take a case under data protection as they relied on incorrect personal data to come to a decision on ceasing the pension. Happy to help further if you need me to I hav experience with this. appallng to send a letter like this to an 85 year old without at least a courtesy phone call beforehand what is happening in this country? I hope your folks are ok after this terrible event.

alig123aileen · 18-06-2017 2:32am

You should set out your complaint to the freedom of information officer in dept social welfare their website gives an email address for him. Ask for a copy of your file under freedom of information . When you do this a higher executive officer needs to review your file and I think you will find they may reverse Their decision very fast. Tell them you intend to take a case under data protection as they relied on incorrect personal data to come to a decision on ceasing the pension. Happy to help further if you need me to I hav experience with this. appallng to send a letter like this to an 85 year old without at least a courtesy phone call beforehand what is happening in this country? I hope your folks are ok after this terrible event.

alig123aileen · 18-06-2017 2:32am

You should set out your complaint to the freedom of information officer in dept social welfare their website gives an email address for him. Ask for a copy of your file under freedom of information . When you do this a higher executive officer needs to review your file and I think you will find they may reverse Their decision very fast. Tell them you intend to take a case under data protection as they relied on incorrect personal data to come to a decision on ceasing the pension. Happy to help further if you need me to I hav experience with this. appallng to send a letter like this to an 85 year old without at least a courtesy phone call beforehand what is happening in this country? I hope your folks are ok after this terrible event.

liam00 · 21-07-2019 12:51pm

Hi
Just a follow up on this. Social made an error and reduced amount due to 116k. We have lost appeal and need advice on what to do from someone who knows what their talking about. Any recommendations for a decent adviser.

liam00 · 21-07-2019 12:53pm

liam00 wrote: »

Hi
Just a follow up on this. Social made an error and reduced amount due to 116k. We have lost appeal and need advice on what to do from someone who knows what their talking about. Any recommendations for a decent adviser.

The social say that because my father had a joint account with my mother she was earning even tho she never worked or contributed to the business.

banie01 · 21-07-2019 12:57pm

liam00 wrote: »

Hi
Just a follow up on this. Social made an error and reduced amount due to 116k. We have lost appeal and need advice on what to do from someone who knows what their talking about. Any recommendations for a decent adviser.

As was mentioned to you at the time of your OP.
Engage legal counsel.
The SW relying on a joint account is a bit of a stretch and the liability would lie IMO with the pension recipient rather than your father if your mother was receiving a pension.

Contact friends of the elderly and ask if they could advise.

BorneTobyWilde · 21-07-2019 1:03pm

Don't give them a dime. Make them spell out why the person who received the pension is not the one liable. How on earth would someone else be liable, including your father. They are the ones who gave her the pension, she did not weasel it out of them true lies.

Paul_Mc1988 · 21-07-2019 1:58pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

Don't give them a dime. Make them spell out why the person who received the pension is not the one liable. How on earth would someone else be liable, including your father. They are the ones who gave her the pension, she did not weasel it out of them true lies.

They are saying person who recieved the pension is the one who is liable. She is also on the joint business account so was therfore receiving an income an not entitled to the pension.

I have heard of instances of this whereby a payment plan is usually accepted. Good look going forward OP

Calahonda52 · 21-07-2019 4:12pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Don't give them a dime. Make them spell out why the person who received the pension is not the one liable. How on earth would someone else be liable, including your father. They are the ones who gave her the pension, she did not weasel it out of them true lies.

That is an outrageous and obnoxious statement to make about our public servants.

The reality is that paperwork was filled out to claim the pension where it very clearly asked about joint accounts.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/means_test_for_social_welfare_payments/assessing_the_means_of_a_couple.html

Mrs OBumble · 21-07-2019 4:24pm

liam00 wrote: »

The social say that because my father had a joint account with my mother she was earning even tho she never worked or contributed to the business.

This is not a taxation question: it probably belongs in State Benefits.

However the answer is still to take professional advice.

If your mother was getting drawings from the business, even though she was not required to do any work in return for these, then I'd also say that she was earning.

Calahonda52 · 21-07-2019 6:32pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This is not a taxation question: it probably belongs in State Benefits.

However the answer is still to take professional advice.

If your mother was getting drawings from the business, even though she was not required to do any work in return for these, then I'd also say that she was earning.

The joint account is the issue: I have had this issue numerous times.
I have gone to them and asked what is the solution: single accounts, regardless of estate planning

dennyk · 22-07-2019 9:07pm

banie01 wrote: »

The SW relying on a joint account is a bit of a stretch and the liability would lie IMO with the pension recipient rather than your father if your mother was receiving a pension.

The issue is that a joint account is just that, a joint account. It would usually be considered an asset owned by either of the named parties, and would therefore usually be considered in a means test for either party and may also be an asset subject to seizure to satisfy a judgement against either party. In the latter case, even if the social welfare office is pursuing the OP's mother, assets in that joint account on which she is a signatory could potentially be taken to pay back the pension overpayment, even though the other signatory on the account (OP's father) had nothing to do with the matter directly. Informal agreements between the named parties as to who "really" owns the account or whether one party has contributed little or no money to the account may not be a factor when considering such matters; it's the legal way in which the account is set up that usually matters.

OP should definitely speak to a solicitor, but in general, careful consideration is required when setting up any joint account and you should make certain to understand all of the ramifications of such a setup (and understand how future life events will be impacted as well, e.g. divorce, death, retirement or social welfare benefits, etc.).

StringerBell · 23-07-2019 9:00pm

Without a doubt not a tax question, and as others have said, the place to go is to get some legal advice. Should have been the first port of call tbh.

I would imagine there will need to be a payment plan agreed for what its worth, unless it can be argued your dad is not liable. I have no idea whether that would be possible.

tayto lover · 23-07-2019 9:30pm

Pay back €1 a week.

Calahonda52 · 24-07-2019 8:11am

tayto lover wrote: »

Pay back €1 a week.

Does this point to that you have always been a drain on the State, have never paid a cent in tax, prsi, usc?
Perhaps if you had: you would appreciate that the 114k, or what ever it is, is actually coming out of your pocket.

splinter65 · 24-07-2019 8:20am

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Don't give them a dime. Make them spell out why the person who received the pension is not the one liable. How on earth would someone else be liable, including your father. They are the ones who gave her the pension, she did not weasel it out of them true lies.

The father claimed that his wife was his dependent. The father completed a form wherein he applied to get an allowance added to his own pension from SW for his wife.
In that application he was asked to list all his wife’s income and bank accounts in her name or jointly in his name and her name so that SW could estimate if he did in fact need an extra allowance for her.
If he didn’t include this joint account then they have discovered it now.
He should not have got the allowance for her and now every penny has to be paid back because the money came from the taxpayer and the taxpayer must be made whole again.
I hope this explains this to you and the OP.

splinter65 · 24-07-2019 8:23am

tayto lover wrote: »

Pay back €1 a week.

Do you work and pay tax? If so then this money is owed to you. This man defrauded you. SW get a certain budget and those on disability payments and Carers payments go without so that rich people can defraud the taxpayer. Understand?

splinter65 · 24-07-2019 8:24am

StringerBell wrote: »

Without a doubt not a tax question, and as others have said, the place to go is to get some legal advice. Should have been the first port of call tbh.

I would imagine there will need to be a payment plan agreed for what its worth, unless it can be argued your dad is not liable. I have no idea whether that would be possible.

The father is liable. He applied for the payment. He defrauded the dept. if they don’t pay it now it will come out of their estate when they die.

splinter65 · 24-07-2019 8:25am

dennyk wrote: »

The issue is that a joint account is just that, a joint account. It would usually be considered an asset owned by either of the named parties, and would therefore usually be considered in a means test for either party and may also be an asset subject to seizure to satisfy a judgement against either party. In the latter case, even if the social welfare office is pursuing the OP's mother, assets in that joint account on which she is a signatory could potentially be taken to pay back the pension overpayment, even though the other signatory on the account (OP's father) had nothing to do with the matter directly. Informal agreements between the named parties as to who "really" owns the account or whether one party has contributed little or no money to the account may not be a factor when considering such matters; it's the legal way in which the account is set up that usually matters.

OP should definitely speak to a solicitor, but in general, careful consideration is required when setting up any joint account and you should make certain to understand all of the ramifications of such a setup (and understand how future life events will be impacted as well, e.g. divorce, death, retirement or social welfare benefits, etc.).

Once again, the father applied for the “increase” in respect of his spouse. The father is liable.

GooglePlus · 24-07-2019 8:52am

This will go on until they're both in the grave, due to the amount of money in question.

Let it go on and if they are in the wrong, go down every avenue you can for them and when the time comes, it'll be deducted from their estate, which in this case is the land, house, savings and whatever else is of value. If the land doesn't cover it, the rest will come from the house and that, so it affects inheritance more than anything.

Drag it out for them and let them enjoy their remaining years.

tayto lover · 24-07-2019 2:34pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Do you work and pay tax? If so then this money is owed to you. This man defrauded you. SW get a certain budget and those on disability payments and Carers payments go without so that rich people can defraud the taxpayer. Understand?

I meant it to be cynical and yes I have always worked and never been on the rock n’ roll.

SteM · 24-07-2019 2:42pm

GooglePlus wrote: »

Drag it out for them and let them enjoy their remaining years.

How can they enjoy their remaining years with this hanging over them? I'd be feeling sick waiting on every follow up letter. Better to organise a payment plan surely?

StringerBell · 26-07-2019 4:52pm

Yep, organize an affordable payment plan that provides peace of mind and still allows for an enjoyable retirement.

splinter65 · 26-07-2019 5:24pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Yep, organize an affordable payment plan that provides peace of mind and still allows for an enjoyable retirement.

That won’t be possible with this level of debt owed.
The dept have now seen bank statements etc now and if their capital savings shares investments etc comes to more then €20000 each then any excess will have to hand it over.

Calahonda52 · 26-07-2019 9:51pm

splinter65 wrote: »

That won’t be possible with this level of debt owed.
The dept have now seen bank statements etc now and if their capital savings shares investments etc comes to more then €20000 each then any excess will have to hand it over.

or worse
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dutch-man-jailed-for-falsely-claiming-226k-in-social-welfare-while-living-outside-ireland-38349708.html

State pension cancelled

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