Legal ancestor

kildarejohn · 07-10-2014 12:15pm #1

It seems like one of my gggrandfathers was a solicitor in Dublin in the period from c. 1840 to 1870. He was probably born in 1800 to 1820 but I can find no baptism record. Can anyone suggest sources for solicitors? Are there records at Kings Inn.

pinkypinky · 07-10-2014 12:43pm

Trade directories will show you business and home addresses.

Kings Inn does have records but I'm not sure how to go about accessing them.

Also consider where he trained? It's probably Trinity, so have a look at their Alumni Dublineses.
http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=LCN10378529_0003

L1011 · 07-10-2014 1:01pm

You probably already know what religion this ancestor was; but if not its more likely that a lawyer around that time was a member of one of the Protestant denominations, for which there's often less baptismal records online at the main sources. The Church of Ireland is working on digitising records : http://ireland.anglican.org/about/109 ; there's some on Irish Genealogy and some on the IFHF but there's a lot of gaps.

shanew · 07-10-2014 1:38pm

King’s Inns Admission Papers 1607–1867 (irishmanuscripts.ie)

pedroeibar1 · 07-10-2014 1:53pm

As a solicitor he would not be in the Kings Inns, that's for the Bar. You need to go to the Incorporated Law Society.
While we are on 'alumni', does anyone have experience of accessing Alumni Dubliniensis post the book that ends 1850-ish? I'm trying to ascertain if someone actually attended / entered TCD in 1914 as he is said to have done, but my pointers are that he might have joined up....
Thanks
P

shanew · 07-10-2014 2:10pm

there are other volumes of Admissions etc on the Trinity website, but the most recent I could see was abt 1910.

Jellybaby1 · 07-10-2014 3:12pm

Delighted to get this link, thank you. I am stunned by the ages of the students, I've come across them as young as 13yrs old!!!!

Edit: Anyone know what the terms mean, after the names, I understand 'son of ', 'aged', and the place they come from but other than that I haven't got the foggiest!

shanew · 07-10-2014 3:52pm

I am not at all familiar with the qualification process for legal people, but from what can make out from the intro (vii) to the King's Inn admissions it looks like 'Attorneys' attended King's Inn until 1866, 'when the Attorneys withdrew to form their own society' the Incorporated Law Society. In the earlier Legal listings in directories Solicitors are listed in a combined list of 'Attorneys, Solicitors & Proctors'... any one know what the difference between these three are ?

pedroeibar1 · 07-10-2014 4:09pm

Scrap my earlier, here's the skinny - - Before the creation of the Supreme Court of Judicature under the Supreme Court of Judicature Act 1873, solicitors practised in the Court of Chancery, attorneys practised in the common law courts and proctors practised in the ecclesiastical courts. After 1873 the offices of "attorney" and "proctor" disappeared as terms relating to legally qualified persons, being replaced by "Solicitor of the Supreme Court of England and Wales"

pedroeibar1 · 08-10-2014 10:41am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

....
Edit: Anyone know what the terms mean, after the names, I understand 'son of ', 'aged', and the place they come from but other than that I haven't got the foggiest!

See page 906 - it gives a Latin/English list of the trades/professions of the father.

kildarejohn · 09-10-2014 10:43am

Thanks to all for you replies to my original query.
My ancestor does not appear in TCD Alumni, probably because he was RC.
The Kings Inn Admissions is an amazing document, full of fascinating info - thanks to shanew for link.
I found a possible match to my ancestor, strangely his age is listed as 48 (in 1858) and he was son of a victualler. He was educated at Feineiglian School.
48 seems very old to start training - anyone heard of similar cases?
I now need to find some corroborating evidence to see if the names/dates definitely match my gggf.

pedroeibar1 · 09-10-2014 5:46pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

My ancestor does not appear in TCD Alumni, probably because he was RC.

Quite a few Catholics started to study at TCD in the 1800’s following permission under the Catholic Relief Act of 1793 at which time, somewhat bizarrely, the RC Church banned its members from attending unless they had a letter from their bishop granting special permission. (It would be granted on the basis that the local priest was satisfied the student’s ‘faith and morals’ would not be ‘corrupted’ by TCD!) Once the letter was obtained it was down to parental aspirations and an ability to pay. The Al. Dub. Book has 'R.C. after the names.

kildarejohn wrote: »

I found a possible match to my ancestor, strangely his age is listed as 48 (in 1858) and he was son of a victualler. 48 seems very old to start training - anyone heard of similar cases?

At age 48 it would be late, but by no means unknown, even today. You stated earlier he practiced law from 1840-70 and was born 1800-1820. So, being 48 in 1858 gives a DoB of 1810). Could he have practiced as an attorney first and then given that up to ‘do’ the Bar in 1858?

kildarejohn wrote: »

He was educated at Feineiglian School.

The Feinaglian School was named after / used the methods of a memory coach named Feinagle and it was located for a while in Aldborough House. There are quite a few (40 - odd) past pupils listed in the KI book.
For Feinagle see here

kildarejohn · 10-10-2014 1:17pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

At age 48 it would be late, but by no means unknown, even today. You stated earlier he practiced law from 1840-70 and was born 1800-1820. So, being 48 in 1858 gives a DoB of 1810). Could he have practiced as an attorney first and then given that up to ‘do’ the Bar in 1858?
[/B][/URL]

I did some searches on BMD's and Directories, quite time consuming as this man had a common name (James Malone). It looks like his "career path" was - 1841 Victualler (=butcher?), taking over his father's trade. 1858 Accountant. 1862 - Land Agent, legal and commercial accountant, and listed in the Law Directory section of Thoms, also in 1862, under "Attorneys, Solicitors & Proctors".
From butcher to solicitor in 20 years - could it happen today?

pedroeibar1 · 10-10-2014 4:01pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

I did some searches on BMD's and Directories, quite time consuming as this man had a common name (James Malone). It looks like his "career path" was - 1841 Victualler (=butcher?), taking over his father's trade. 1858 Accountant. 1862 - Land Agent, legal and commercial accountant, and listed in the Law Directory section of Thoms, also in 1862, under "Attorneys, Solicitors & Proctors".
From butcher to solicitor in 20 years - could it happen today?

Knew it was JM, he was the only one who matched the four entries for victuallers;)
It is possible that he worked as an accountant before taking over his father's business. There are specialist firms of 'Legal Costs Acountants' who prepare bills of costs, I don't know if that was a profession back then, the trade directories would tell you.nWorking as an accountant with solicitors/attornies he might have been articled as a clerk and progressed up the legal ladder that way. The solicitor's apprenticeship scheme in that format stopped in the 1970's I think, closed off for a few years to build up a big intake for the opening of the law school at Blackhall Place.
As for your question From butcher to solicitor in 20 years - could it happen today? it could and does; it also works the other way, I know a few who have gone from being solicitors to unemployed in the last few years and 'took the boat' to get work.

Legal ancestor

Comments