Dairy Bull Beef

CloughCasey1 · 25-03-2015 10:16pm #1

With the over population of dairy bull calves over the next few years will bull beef finished at 13-16 months become more common? Would it make sense to finish at that age as it may be easier to finish with smaller frames than at 30 to 36 months and also get these dairy calves out of the system quicker?

davidk1394 · 26-03-2015 9:07am

I finish dairy bulls. Now not on a huge scale.. id usually finish AA FR and a few kiwi's aswell, they are a fiery breed now and they dont really have the weight but you do make money off them none the less. I usually try and go for black freisans. They seem to finish well and grade well with good weights. I dont have them going a t 16months yet usually 18-19 months but im pulling it back each year. I finish them in a shed beded with pea straw which is cheap and does the job for roughage and give them ad lib meal for 90-120 days depending on the breed. Its not perfect but it does the job for me with minimal investment required only for the stock and feed.

Farmer Pudsey · 26-03-2015 9:15am

Finishing dairy bulls @16 months is a high skill business. Hardest part is buying right calf and getting him going from the start. It is actually harder to finish them and get adequate fat cover. These cattle are still growing so a lot of there energy is going into bone production.

JE it seem are easier to flesh than FR and because of first day cost more profitable.

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 9:22am

This year was first time we tried bull beef here. Had two BAxFR bought for 370 as calves and a LMxHE that I bought as a runner 3 mts old 390. Killed them at 14mts for two BA's 365kgdw and 15mts 305kgdw for the lim. Was happy with results €1325 average for the three. 4 mts before I tried the brown ba and lim in mart and was only bid 780 and 820 made sense to finish them at that rate.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER · 26-03-2015 10:21am

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

This year was first time we tried bull beef here. Had two BAxFR bought for 370 as calves and a LMxHE that I bought as a runner 3 mts old 390. Killed them at 14mts for two BA's 365kgdw and 15mts 305kgdw for the lim. Was happy with results €1325 average for the three. 4 mts before I tried the brown ba and lim in mart and was only bid 780 and 820 made sense to finish them at that rate.

How much meal each did these lads eat?

Farrell · 26-03-2015 10:24am

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

This year was first time we tried bull beef here. Had two BAxFR bought for 370 as calves and a LMxHE that I bought as a runner 3 mts old 390. Killed them at 14mts for two BA's 365kgdw and 15mts 305kgdw for the lim. Was happy with results €1325 average for the three. 4 mts before I tried the brown ba and lim in mart and was only bid 780 and 820 made sense to finish them at that rate.

Well done.
I guess you brought to the Mart in November & Killed in March, how much did it cost to feed for the 4 months? what sort of weight gain had you?
Reason I ask, lots of us weanling producers were getting offered that price in the last back-end, & this looks a possible option if we'd enough space to hold for a few months

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 11:41am

ZETOR_IS_BETTER wrote: »

How much meal each did these lads eat?

They got built up to 12kg per day to 90 days with a grennans bull finish ration cost 250 per animal to finish and another 30 each on straw for bedding and feed. I should have kept another 2 weeks as one only killed at O+ 2-. The other BA was R grade and 2+ fat and lim got U- 3 but killed out the lightest even though he was month older.

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 11:51am

Farrell wrote: »

Well done.
I guess you brought to the Mart in November & Killed in March, how much did it cost to feed for the 4 months? what sort of weight gain had you?
Reason I ask, lots of us weanling producers were getting offered that price in the last back-end, & this looks a possible option if we'd enough space to hold for a few months

Sorry Farrell you picked me up wrong. I bought them as sucks but tried them as weanlings at mart last October. Got offered poor money. The brown BA was 465kg in the ring that day and was only 11 months but only got 780 bid. The lim was 395kg and got bid 800 plus. Now the BA was a big long tall animal and maybe was not as fleshy as some of the weanlings that day but I was not best pleased with price. Maybe it was his colour. Racist farmers make no money.

Farmer Pudsey · 26-03-2015 12:58pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

This year was first time we tried bull beef here. Had two BAxFR bought for 370 as calves and a LMxHE that I bought as a runner 3 mts old 390. Killed them at 14mts for two BA's 365kgdw and 15mts 305kgdw for the lim. Was happy with results €1325 average for the three. 4 mts before I tried the brown ba and lim in mart and was only bid 780 and 820 made sense to finish them at that rate.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

They got built up to 12kg per day to 90 days with a grennans bull finish ration cost 250 per animal to finish and another 30 each on straw for bedding and feed. I should have kept another 2 weeks as one only killed at O+ 2-. The other BA was R grade and 2+ fat and lim got U- 3 but killed out the lightest even though he was month older.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Sorry Farrell you picked me up wrong. I bought them as sucks but tried them as weanlings at mart last October. Got offered poor money. The brown BA was 465kg in the ring that day and was only 11 months but only got 780 bid. The lim was 395kg and got bid 800 plus. Now the BA was a big long tall animal and maybe was not as fleshy as some of the weanlings that day but I was not best pleased with price. Maybe it was his colour. Racist farmers make no money.

The question you have to ask is if you had squeezed them and had carried over the winter and sold now as stores what would they have made and how much to winter.

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 1:45pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The question you have to ask is if you had squeezed them and had carried over the winter and sold now as stores what would they have made and how much to winter.

Which is a good question. I reckon I still worked out 100 a head better but with more work. Had two more (bought as sucks also) a CH and BBxFR which I did squeeze and got 1150 465kg and 1040 460kg at mart last week both born start jan 14. But prices are good now. They got barley mix with soya bean meal mixed through at 2kg for winter with ok quality silage and would be far better made animals than the bulls. The main reason I started thread was to discuss would finishing as young bulls help clear the glut of dairy animals that will come through over next few years.

Farmer Pudsey · 26-03-2015 1:47pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Which is a good question. I reckon I still worked out 100 a head better but with more work. Had two more (bought as sucks also) a CH and BBxFR which I did squeeze and got 1150 465kg and 1040 460kg at mart last week both born start jan 14. But prices are good now. They got barley mix with soya bean meal mixed through at 2kg for winter with ok quality silage and would be far better made animals than the bulls. The main reason I started thread was to discuss would finishing as young bulls help clear the glut of dairy animals that will come through over next few years.

It is suckler cattle that create the glut not dairy cattle

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 2:03pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is suckler cattle that create the glut not dairy cattle

I've been reading this forum for a long time now and you are never far wrong Pudsey. Maybe i should say the extra amount of dairy calves. That comment may upset some of the other posters. I agree there is no money in buying inflated priced yellow CHx's and selling them for 300 more a year later as most lads round our area seem to do. Heard an agent for factory tell a farmer at mart last week that "nothing finishes better than a yellow CHx". He may be right but I've rarely seen value for money out of them. Could only buy small number of sucks last yr as we went down with TB and for the first time bought a few continental weanlings late in year and I tell you i wont be doing it again. The sucks reared properly and out to grass at end of march get far more weight on them and convert better im my opinion without the cost of the cow.

freedominacup · 26-03-2015 2:10pm

We often finished our own ho bulls here but tbh I think 13-16 months is very hard to do and make money at. We usually finished them at 18 months. Last of them went last summer at around 380kg dead. June is usually a good time to have them ready. Not a lot of grass cattle around and most of the cattle held in to finish are gone as well.

Farrell · 26-03-2015 2:24pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Sorry Farrell you picked me up wrong. I bought them as sucks but tried them as weanlings at mart last October. Got offered poor money. The brown BA was 465kg in the ring that day and was only 11 months but only got 780 bid. The lim was 395kg and got bid 800 plus. Now the BA was a big long tall animal and maybe was not as fleshy as some of the weanlings that day but I was not best pleased with price. Maybe it was his colour. Racist farmers make no money.

No got that, was getting €700 for a LM in December, took him home, dosed & 3kg nut most days, got €1100 in March.
My thought is for an extra bit & better technique could of done like you

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 3:14pm

Farrell wrote: »

No got that, was getting €700 for a LM in December, took him home, dosed & 3kg nut most days, got €1100 in March.
My thought is for an extra bit & better technique could of done like you

Getting 1100 in march was not bad either.you may have spent the difference in meal. What weight did you sell the lim at in mart and what was he in dec?

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 3:29pm

freedominacup wrote: »

We often finished our own ho bulls here but tbh I think 13-16 months is very hard to do and make money at. We usually finished them at 18 months. Last of them went last summer at around 380kg dead. June is usually a good time to have them ready. Not a lot of grass cattle around and most of the cattle held in to finish are gone as well.

380 is good dw and you probably didn't need to push them as hard. What breed were they? How did you fare out with factory price seeing they were over 16 mts?

Farmer Pudsey · 26-03-2015 4:01pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

This year was first time we tried bull beef here. Had two BAxFR bought for 370 as calves and a LMxHE that I bought as a runner 3 mts old 390. Killed them at 14mts for two BA's 365kgdw and 15mts 305kgdw for the lim. Was happy with results €1325 average for the three. 4 mts before I tried the brown ba and lim in mart and was only bid 780 and 820 made sense to finish them at that rate.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Which is a good question. I reckon I still worked out 100 a head better but with more work. Had two more (bought as sucks also) a CH and BBxFR which I did squeeze and got 1150 465kg and 1040 460kg at mart last week both born start jan 14. But prices are good now. They got barley mix with soya bean meal mixed through at 2kg for winter with ok quality silage and would be far better made animals than the bulls. The main reason I started thread was to discuss would finishing as young bulls help clear the glut of dairy animals that will come through over next few years.

BB are bad sellers as bullocks at the best of times and are poorish to weight as bulls. Theyu might not have averages much more than the other bulls. In reality I expect taht they left much the same as stores as finishing as bulls. As Freedom says very hard to finish dairy cross cattle at sub 16 months. I used to target finish at Christmas when they be 20-24 months. As mpst are inefficient feeders it was a case of targeting feed to finish at FS2= to FS3- and get rid of all of them by late January.

I am reluctant to go back at it again. To finish 20 of them you would have a meal bill of 4-5K at present grain prices. Only calves that will hit 16 months in May/June are possible to finish as bulls. Rearing the calves is the biggest issue you would need all January/February calves and for them never to see a sdet back they will also need to be on 1-2kgs of ration all summer long and moves at max potential to finih at sub 16 months

CloughCasey1 · 26-03-2015 6:15pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

BB are bad sellers as bullocks at the best of times and are poorish to weight as bulls. Theyu might not have averages much more than the other bulls. In reality I expect taht they left much the same as stores as finishing as bulls. As Freedom says very hard to finish dairy cross cattle at sub 16 months. I used to target finish at Christmas when they be 20-24 months. As mpst are inefficient feeders it was a case of targeting feed to finish at FS2= to FS3- and get rid of all of them by late January.

I am reluctant to go back at it again. To finish 20 of them you would have a meal bill of 4-5K at present grain prices. Only calves that will hit 16 months in May/June are possible to finish as bulls. Rearing the calves is the biggest issue you would need all January/February calves and for them never to see a sdet back they will also need to be on 1-2kgs of ration all summer long and moves at max potential to finih at sub 16 months

If that is the case would your opionion be to target November December sucks/runners to finish at 24 months as bullocks be more viable with two good years of grass and one winter housed? I still think with the right animal it is possible to finish as young bulls. Prices in mart are not reliable for younger dairy bred stock.

Farrell · 26-03-2015 11:35pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Getting 1100 in march was not bad either.you may have spent the difference in meal. What weight did you sell the lim at in mart and what was he in dec?

410Kg in March & 320kg in December

Farmer Pudsey · 27-03-2015 3:54am

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

If that is the case would your opionion be to target November December sucks/runners to finish at 24 months as bullocks be more viable with two good years of grass and one winter housed? I still think with the right animal it is possible to finish as young bulls. Prices in mart are not reliable for younger dairy bred stock.

Under 16 months bulls is a small margin game dependent on volume to make a profit. It is also high cost. With present ration prices it may be viable. Frm purchasse to finish it will cost about 600-650 to rear and finish such an animal and the cost of the calf.

If you are buying such calves at 125-150 each add mart and transport fees and your total cost is hitting 800ish euro. Your average Fr calf will finish around 240-260kgs but FS is the issue. Not all will make FS2= or better and those that do not will be hit hard on price. In such a system you would need a price of 4.2+/kg to generate an adequate margin. This is for an animal that is grading on average O=2=.

It is the bulls that fail to hit the target that will hit you margin

CloughCasey1 · 27-03-2015 9:14am

Farrell wrote: »

410Kg in March & 320kg in December

If you fed him for finish at 16 months you assuming he was that when you sold in march you would possibly got him to 540kg and assuming 58% dw at 4.30 per kg on the grid he would have come into 1350 approx. Would have cost ya that to feed him I think.

Bellview · 28-03-2015 11:12am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is suckler cattle that create the glut not dairy cattle

Not sure how you arrived at that stat as the suckler herd is still declining. The real question I would have here is what is the target market off this beef and is that market growing. Dairy bull beef is less likely to be seen in premium beef markets... I have not seen any restaurants or even staff canteens advertising je or ho beef on the menu.
If the market at consumer end is getting stronger for this type of beef then there is less to be concerned about for this relatively low end product. But if the market weakens then there is another price crash soon as factories will chase the low price market and they will get supply from the dairy herd...

Farmer Pudsey · 28-03-2015 12:24pm

Bellview wrote: »

Not sure how you arrived at that stat as the suckler herd is still declining. The real question I would have here is what is the target market off this beef and is that market growing. Dairy bull beef is less likely to be seen in premium beef markets... I have not seen any restaurants or even staff canteens advertising je or ho beef on the menu.
If the market at consumer end is getting stronger for this type of beef then there is less to be concerned about for this relatively low end product. But if the market weakens then there is another price crash soon as factories will chase the low price market and they will get supply from the dairy herd...

Neither have I seen them advertise LM or CH beef. The only beef breeds I have seen advertised are HE and AA. Most of which comes from.....I imagine dairy cross cattle. During the excess last year the cattle that were penalised were bulls regardless of breeds and heavy suckler breed carcass'es. Last year I think taht it was Paul Nolan of Dawn that stated that Dairy cross cattle of O+ were more than adequate for the British supermarket trade. This is the highes prices market that Irish processors pay into.

Just because the suckler herd is declining is no reason it is not part of the glut. Again last year it was these cattle that lost the most amount of money. For suckler cattle to be profitable a price in excess of 4.3/kg is need to make suckler's viable and maybe in excess of 4.5/kg.

At present dairy farmers are reducing the amount of cows they breed for replacements and letting sweeper bulls in earlier. In the next 5 years the replacment rate will drop to 15% and if sexed semen becomes a reality( I think it is still over 5 years away before calves will start hitting the ground in commercial quanties) then the dairy herd will be producing 1.2 million beef breed type cattle. Even without sexed semen it will hit a million such cattle

Mad4simmental · 28-03-2015 1:17pm

By five years time everyone will have jumped on the calf to beef boat and squeezed every cent out of that to by flooding that market.

The one and only thing to keep money in every beef mans pocket no matter what your game is exporters. We need them allot more than they need us. The more boat loads of calves that leave the country the better.

The good old aa and he scheme won't be long disappearing when all these extra calves arrive either.

Dairy Bull Beef

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