Educate Together or Catholic School?

Revolver Ireland · 25-03-2015 11:12pm #1

Hi Guys,
Our Firstborn has come to the schooling age

He has been accepted into 2 schools, namely Grifeen Valley ET and Clonburris Clondalkin. We are Christians, but not Catholics. We have no issue with the catholic curriculum, ethos etc, but it IS a bonus (Not a deal breaker) for ET that he wont go through the communion and confirmation thing. I'm just wondering if anyone could offer any advice on which school to send him to. He's a bright, happy child. I've gone to both schools, and I like them both. My sis has her son in the ET in Griffith Barracks and swears by it, however, I know a young school principal who says stay away from ET as they have real discipline issues, and the pupils have issues in secondary school. We are more leaning towards the ET school, but I do have this horrible seed of doubt thanks to my principal friend. Its a big decison, and I will appreciate all the info and advice I can get.
Cheers.

byhookorbycrook · 25-03-2015 11:22pm

There is a growing number of children in Catholic schools that don't make the sacraments, so don't let that sway you, if you are Christian anyhow. All schools must teach about religion, even multi-ds must spend the same time on religion so keep that in mind too.

I would also say that any school is only as good as the staff and of course, the principal.

titchy · 25-03-2015 11:29pm

Don't forget about secondary school.
I know it seems like forever away but Ide be finding out what secondary schools accept both primary schools as 'feeder schools'
Will the ET school be as high up the list for your chosen secondary school as the ET school?

bpmurray · 25-03-2015 11:35pm

Another aspect you could consider is that more and more places are being taken in ET schools by kids who are baptised, and those who are not are refused admission to the Catholic schools: by taking one of the few ET places, you may be excluding a child from education.

How Strange · 26-03-2015 8:38am

I know Griffeen ET have more and more kids making communion/confirmation every year. The instruction is done outside school hours but it's something to consider if you don't want your son to make his communion. It was one of the very few things that swayed us away from Griffeen.

I'm sending my son to an ET in September. I've heard the stories of wanton abandon of not using teachers surnames etc. I only know some kids who went through the ET system and they are lovely, grounded people. I think the establishment would like you to believe that using a teachers first name marks the end of civilisation

Revolver Ireland · 26-03-2015 2:06pm

Thanks for all the responses. Just in relation to the Communion thing, just to clarify, I really don't have much issue with it, I just considered it a plus that in ET my son would not have to sit it out while the class did it. I went through Catholic school education, and I sat out all the specifically catholic stuff, but I did love religion class so like I said, its not that it matters that much. I suppose the main thing, is the manner in which the children are treated and taught. It SOUNDS great to say the kids are treated as individuals, and their needs are catered for individually etc, but practically, what does this translate to? Like I said, my sis has her son in an ET, and he came on leaps and bounds in it, but he came from a school in Ballyfermot which had real issues due to the high number of difficult kids, and the teachers seemed worn out by it.
Both the schools we have a place for have good reputations. It seems to me (and I emphasise 'seems'), the ET school makes for a happier school life for the kid, but the worry, is does it come at a price? I want my child to be happy in school, but want them to be well educated, focussed and disciplined also. You can't always do what you want, and I want school to reflect that, but the way some people talk about ET, you'd think the child was in charge. Some of the accusations against the ET system I've heard seemed ridiculous and unrealistic, which is why I am dubious about the accusations. Still though, that little bit of 'Smoke without fire' doubt is in my head, and I'm hoping for feedback from the kind members of this forum

Moonbeam · 26-03-2015 2:18pm

It depends on the school.
If you have no issue with the Ethos then judge both schools on their own merits.
We have all heard nightmare stories about national schools,I haven't really heard any about Educate Together schools but they are not around as long.

Personally I like the Educate Together Ethos.

Isnt that a pip · 26-03-2015 3:04pm

Educate together is not just about religion. Religion always comes up as a topic when people discuss educate together due to the fact that they are one of the few that do not discriminate based on religion, but within educate together religion is a just a school subject (can't think of the name, but it goes by a name other than religion).

They have a fantastic ethos in my experience. It's all about respecting one another no matter what your race, colour or creed. There is no indoctrination, they learn that different people believe different things and people come from different places and have different cultures. I actually learn a lot from child, which shows you how narrow minded my education was.

Of course quality is dependant on the specific school and the head master, but as a body their structure and approach is spot on. Certainly, my child's school is a very happy place to be.

It is not my experience that the children are treated and catered for individually. I can't see how that could possibly work. It's a classroom and they all learn together.

I'd also add that they are not anti-Catholic. They learn about Christianity, it's just not indoctrinated.

byhookorbycrook · 27-03-2015 10:16pm

Headmaster??? Principals can be female too

zeffabelli · 05-04-2015 6:46pm

Outside of the religious ideology, I find Catholic education to be rigid and about 60 years behind the progress of educational psychology and pedogogy.

From what I have witnessed, they want to pump out docile good little bureaucrats.

If ET schools get away from this, I would choose it in a heartbeat.

byhookorbycrook · 05-04-2015 10:21pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

Outside of the religious ideology, I find Catholic education to be rigid and about 60 years behind the progress of educational psychology and pedogogy.

From what I have witnessed, they want to pump out docile good little bureaucrats.

If ET schools get away from this, I would choose it in a heartbeat.

I have to challenge this and call BS. How have you arrived at this conclusion and what forms of evidence do you have?I suggest that you look at the WSE reports on the DES site.

zeffabelli · 05-04-2015 10:26pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I have to challenge this and call BS. How have you arrived at this conclusion and what forms of evidence do you have? I suggest that you look at the WSE reports on the DES site.

Plenty. The fact that school is still analogue in a digital age for a start. The poor school broadband and ICT funding is not the preserve of Catholic schools, it's a DES issue for all schools, being multi-denom doesn't actually mean the school gets access to special digital resources other schools don't.

The fact that in many schools girls still can't wear trousers.Fewer and fewer and again, of these, only some are Catholic schools, do you take similar issue with Muslim girls ??

The fact that Ireland is the only country in Europe that still practices gender segregation as the default.Untrue, schools are less and less segregated on gender and it is usually parental choice that seeks single sex schools

Plenty of discrimination in the assessment of boys via the leaving certificate.Errr, again how is this a "Catholic school issue, and what discrimination do you mean?

Praying at statues is medieval. I think you need to consider the schools of today , not 50 years ago

Ante-dilluvian teaching methods on top of it.Please list these, have you actually read any WSE reports or do you just like to throw unfounded statements out there?

zeffabelli · 06-04-2015 7:53pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

Plenty. The fact that school is still analogue in a digital age for a start. The poor school broadband and ICT funding is not the preserve of Catholic schools, it's a DES issue for all schools, being multi-denom doesn't actually mean the school gets access to special digital resources other schools don't.

The fact that in many schools girls still can't wear trousers.Fewer and fewer and again, of these, only some are Catholic schools, do you take similar issue with Muslim girls ??

The fact that Ireland is the only country in Europe that still practices gender segregation as the default.Untrue, schools are less and less segregated on gender and it is usually parental choice that seeks single sex schools

Plenty of discrimination in the assessment of boys via the leaving certificate.Errr, again how is this a "Catholic school issue, and what discrimination do you mean?

Praying at statues is medieval. I think you need to consider the schools of today , not 50 years ago

Ante-dilluvian teaching methods on top of it.Please list these, have you actually read any WSE reports or do you just like to throw unfounded statements out there?

What do Muslim girls have to do with anything. Girls should be allowed to wear trousers, end of. The school should not have a uniform policy that forbids this.

Teaching methods are ante diluvian. Ihave read the WSE reports, unfortunately the DES Is also under a prehistoric spell.

Schools remain gender segregated in the Catholic system. Prove me wrong...go on.

Yep....the school my one is in prays at statues, its INSANE ....no different from voodoo.

Tell me why with the rich literature tradition we have in English, my boy is coming home with utter crap about Bill and Ben and the picnic. I tell him not to bother and hand him Harry Potter.

Tell me why the school never answers the phone after 3pm...would this be the union by any chance?

Tell me why the vast majority of the population HATED school.

Let me tell you, if the DES and teachers don't snap out of it, they will be entirely redundant within 50 years. It's McEducation factory model, late 19th century industrial age unconciously designed to kill curiosity and get children acclimated to dread, boredom, and a bureaucratic life.

seavill · 06-04-2015 9:15pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

What do Muslim girls have to do with anything. Girls should be allowed to wear trousers, end of. The school should not have a uniform policy that forbids this.

Teaching methods are ante diluvian. Ihave read the WSE reports, unfortunately the DES Is also under a prehistoric spell.

Schools remain gender segregated in the Catholic system. Prove me wrong...go on.

Yep....the school my one is in prays at statues, its INSANE ....no different from voodoo.

Tell me why with the rich literature tradition we have in English, my boy is coming home with utter crap about Bill and Ben and the picnic. I tell him not to bother and hand him Harry Potter.

Tell me why the school never answers the phone after 3pm...would this be the union by any chance?

Tell me why the vast majority of the population HATED school.

Let me tell you, if the DES and teachers don't snap out of it, they will be entirely redundant within 50 years. It's McEducation factory model, late 19th century industrial age unconciously designed to kill curiosity and get children acclimated to dread, boredom, and a bureaucratic life.

For the first time on boards I actually don't even know where to start to answer this

byhookorbycrook · 06-04-2015 9:31pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

What do Muslim girls have to do with anything. Girls should be allowed to wear trousers, end of. The school should not have a uniform policy that forbids this.
Your issue was with Catholic schools and girls' uniform, am proving that it is not a Catholic only issue.

Teaching methods are ante diluvian. Ihave read the WSE reports, unfortunately the DES Is also under a prehistoric spell.
Again, if you disagree with DES policy it is NOT a Catholic school issue, you have yet to answer what these methods are.

Schools remain gender segregated in the Catholic system. Prove me wrong...go on.

Tosh, you make it appear that all Catholic schools are single sex

Yep....the school my one is in prays at statues, its INSANE ....no different from voodoo.
One school, not every school, hardly a representative sample

Tell me why with the rich literature tradition we have in English, my boy is coming home with utter crap about Bill and Ben and the picnic. I tell him not to bother and hand him Harry Potter.

DES policy issue, again NOT a Catholic school issue. In classes of 30 plus unfortunately, individual texts not always possible.
Tell me why the school never answers the phone after 3pm...would this be the union by any chance?

Tell me why the vast majority of the population HATED school.
Schools are different places now, though you seem stuck in the past
Let me tell you, if the DES and teachers don't snap out of it, they will be entirely redundant within 50 years. It's McEducation factory model, late 19th century industrial age unconciously designed to kill curiosity and get children acclimated to dread, boredom, and a bureaucratic life.
*Sigh* Again not a Catholic school issue, I'd suggest you pass all your comments to the DES and stop using religion as the reason to blame for all of your rather odd ideas.

Starting to think you are trolling actually.

coddlehip · 06-04-2015 10:58pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There is a growing number of children in Catholic schools that don't make the sacraments, so don't let that sway you, if you are Christian anyhow. All schools must teach about religion, even multi-ds must spend the same time on religion so keep that in mind too.

I would also say that any school is only as good as the staff and of course, the principal.

There may be a growing number of children in catholic schools not making the sacrements, but I doubt that stops them feeling left out when the rest of the class are doing theirs? And I doubt that there is an increasing amount of resources being given to schools to allow them to provide proper education for those children whilst the others are receiving religious instruction?

zeffabelli · 07-04-2015 10:49am

coddlehip wrote: »

There may be a growing number of children in catholic schools not making the sacrements, but I doubt that stops them feeling left out when the rest of the class are doing theirs? And I doubt that there is an increasing amount of resources being given to schools to allow them to provide proper education for those children whilst the others are receiving religious instruction?

In our local school if you want them exempt you have to come down and take them out yourself. They say they don't have the resources for babysitters.

Obviously with parents working, this is not possible a lot of the time.

It would make more practical sense if they put religion at the beginning of the school morning after prayer so that the non practicing, or the jews or the muslims or secularists or whomever, could come in late and skip the brainwashing.

byhookorbycrook · 07-04-2015 9:05pm

In the original 1831 system religion was to be taught from for a half an hour of the hour lunch time, hence until reasonably recently it was taught from 12-.12.30 so that those not participating could go home for lunch.

Remind Me Tomorrow · 30-05-2015 11:28am

I'm sorry but I need to burst this educate together bubble. My daughter attends an educate together school, we chose it because we are atheist and we literally had no other choice. But for those of you who do have a choice I would like to share my experience with you.

I realise this may not be the case for all educate together schools, but most of the parents and children are foreign. Many of the parents have little or no English and the children form ethnic groups and speak their native language even in class during lessons. As an Irish person, my daughter is very much a foreigner in her own land.

The school is run by the parents. The board of management consists of parents and all decisions are democratic. The school is new and as such it is a crucial time that needs strong leadership and a qualified experienced person at the helm. I find many of the parents, as foreigners, to be quite naïve and gullible. The school is only just getting setup and while other schools in the area are swiftly getting established and getting their permanent buildings, we are just plodding along with no direction or leadership. There is this hippy dippy attitude that everything is wonderful, when the reality is far from it. A school that is run by parents with no experience and with many relatively new to the country and unaware of the politics involved, parents that have day jobs and families and are expected to take on what should be a huge and serious responsibility in their spare time, I'm sorry it just doesn't work.

I find the hippy dippy ethos, lets all hug and respect each other, is often used as a tool for shirking responsibility and a way to simply turn a blinds eye on issues. Any concerns or complaints are solved by being reminded of the ethos and being told to hug and make up.

On the plus side, education wise my daughter seems to be doing just fine. It is our only salvation because at the end of the day that is what counts. But if there are parents out there considering educate together, don't be sucked into the hippy dippy baloney that is being spouted out there. These people are ignorant to what is going on and most of them, as foreigners, simply do not have any point of reference to compare with.

desperate housewife · 30-05-2015 3:24pm

Remind me tomorrow, your school sounds awful you should find a new school. I had to post to give people another perspective on educate together schools. I have been teaching for ten years, 5 in catholic schools and 5 in educate together schools so I have a good comparison of both.
I have worked in three different educate together schools and all have been different. One was about 17 years old, lovely building all irish children and parents, great staff and principal and a fantastic place to work. Another was two years old, beautiful building also, nice mix of irish and foreign children, nice staff but terrible principal and board of management. Due to bad leadership this was a terrible school and was badly run. My current school is ten years old, have probably one of the nicest school buildings in the country, mix of irish and foreign children, great staff principal and board of management. This is a great school and a brilliant place to work and study.
Educate together schools are not run by parents and lacking in discipline. We have a parents association, similar to most catholic schools, who organise one fund raiser per year. That is the extent of their involvement. Discipline is very important and children do not run riot as many people think. We regularly interact with the Catholic school across the road and our children have a much higher level of discipline than them.
we teach the learn together curriculum instead of religion for 30 minutes per day, this teaches about different religions and holidays, about being a good person, helping the environment, getting involved in the community etc.
Having taught in 5 catholic schools, the main differences are minimum. Generally educate together schools are more modern as they are new, we don't follow traditions in the school just because they have been done for 50 years. Catholic schools can be more traditional in terms of uniforms, calling teachers by Ms. Or Mr. Whoever, etc.
There is no uniform in our school and children call teachers by first name. Believe it or not the world doesn't end because of this, children treat all teachers and adults with respect, discipline is excellent.
I'm sure there are plenty of bad educate together schools just as there are plenty of bad catholic, church of ireland, gaelscoils etc.
research your school and find what's best for you.

spurious · 30-05-2015 3:29pm

For balance, as an ex-second level teacher, every single child we ever got from an ET school was a confident, well rounded and balanced young person. Maybe we were lucky, or maybe it was something to do with the ET ethos in the schools they came from, but certainly, if I had a child, it would be to an ET school I would send them.

desperate housewife · 30-05-2015 3:32pm

Remind Me Tomorrow wrote: »

I realise this may not be the case for all educate together schools, but most of the parents and children are foreign. Many of the parents have little or no English and the children form ethnic groups and speak their native language even in class during lessons.

The school is run by the parents. The board of management consists of parents and all decisions are democratic.

The school is only just getting setup and while other schools in the area are swiftly getting established and getting their permanent buildings, we are just plodding along with no direction or leadership.

On the plus side, education wise my daughter seems to be doing just fine.

I have to reply to these. It is irrelevant if the children are foreign, any decent teacher will spread the children out so they are working with other children during lessons so they are not speaking polish etc together.

Every single school has a board of management and they all must have at least two parents on it, usually there could be two more but there are other members also. This is the case in all schools.

Getting a new building is dependent on the department of education, they sanction new buildings and often schools are waiting for years to get a building.

Of course your daughter is doing fine, teachers are fully qualified just like any other school.

But if you are not happy you should find another school, as many parents would love to have their child in an educate together school who could take your place.

katydid · 06-06-2015 7:11pm

Revolver Ireland wrote: »

Hi Guys,
Our Firstborn has come to the schooling age He has been accepted into 2 schools, namely Grifeen Valley ET and Clonburris Clondalkin. We are Christians, but not Catholics. We have no issue with the catholic curriculum, ethos etc, but it IS a bonus (Not a deal breaker) for ET that he wont go through the communion and confirmation thing. I'm just wondering if anyone could offer any advice on which school to send him to. He's a bright, happy child. I've gone to both schools, and I like them both. My sis has her son in the ET in Griffith Barracks and swears by it, however, I know a young school principal who says stay away from ET as they have real discipline issues, and the pupils have issues in secondary school. We are more leaning towards the ET school, but I do have this horrible seed of doubt thanks to my principal friend. Its a big decison, and I will appreciate all the info and advice I can get.
Cheers.

The discipline issues are probably down to the fact that the children are encouraged to think for themselves, and may sometimes come across as too assertive. I would look into that issue more and not take one person's word for it. I sent my child to a very progressive CofI school - non-uniform, co-ed, very individual centred. She had problems - not discipline ones - in secondary school for a while because she was so used to being treated as an individual that she found it hard to fit in with the rigidity of secondary school. I can imagine that some kids might react by acting against the discipline there. Do some research on the matter, it's an important decision.

As a non-Roman Catholic, you would be exposing your child to unwanted indoctrination or, the alternative, voluntary exclusion. Do you really want that for your child?

katydid · 06-06-2015 7:16pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There is a growing number of children in Catholic schools that don't make the sacraments, so don't let that sway you, if you are Christian anyhow. All schools must teach about religion, even multi-ds must spend the same time on religion so keep that in mind too.

I would also say that any school is only as good as the staff and of course, the principal.

The fact that there are "a good number of children" who don't make the Roman Catholic sacraments is certainly something he should take into account. Since the preparation for this takes place during school time, it means that these children are excluded from class activities, which is a
strange way for an educational establishment to behave towards its charges.

As well as being excluded from school based activities, they hear their friends talking about the clothes and the money they make and the parties and the bouncy castles, and they are excluded once again.

AND, leaving aside the preparation for the sacraments, there are school masses, prayers, statues in classrooms and corridors, visits from the local clergy.

You can't just dismiss all that as unimportant; primary school children are very impressionable. Exclusion can be harmful to their development, as can indoctrination.

Teaching ABOUT religion is not the same as teaching the beliefs and practices of one religion above others.

katydid · 06-06-2015 7:21pm

bpmurray wrote: »

Another aspect you could consider is that more and more places are being taken in ET schools by kids who are baptised, and those who are not are refused admission to the Catholic schools: by taking one of the few ET places, you may be excluding a child from education.

You're not seriously suggesting he should make his decision based on the inequities of the Irish education system, rather than putting his own child's welfare first?
If any child is denied an education because of their religion or lack of it, that's something their parents have to deal with.

katydid · 06-06-2015 9:53pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

In our local school if you want them exempt you have to come down and take them out yourself. They say they don't have the resources for babysitters.

Obviously with parents working, this is not possible a lot of the time.

It would make more practical sense if they put religion at the beginning of the school morning after prayer so that the non practicing, or the jews or the muslims or secularists or whomever, could come in late and skip the brainwashing.

That's rather strange. They are legally obliged to provide for the children whose parents don't wish them to participate in denominational indoctrination.

Educate Together or Catholic School?

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