Advice needed - appropriate age for completing Leaving Cert

heldel00 · 26-04-2021 10:01pm #1

Popping over here from the Primary teaching forum.
We have quite an interesting discussion going about the best age for children to start primary school.
The new ECCE (preschool) scheme will no longer accept children born after the 31st December until the following Sept.
Eg: my own daughter was born in early January, she will start preschool this Sept at age 3yrs 8months. She will either do one year of preschool and start "big" school at 4yr 8months or do two years and start at 5yr 8mo.
Starting later will mean she will do her LC at 18y 8months (that is without TY)

We'd love to hear the opinions of second level teachers about this.

Chancer3001 · 26-04-2021 10:05pm

heldel00 wrote: »

Popping over here from the Primary teaching forum.
We have quite an interesting discussion going about the best age for children to start primary school.
The new ECCE (preschool) scheme will no longer accept children born after the 31st December until the following Sept.
Eg: my own daughter was born in early January, she will start preschool this Sept at age 3yrs 8months. She will either do one year of preschool and start "big" school at 4yr 8months or do two years and start at 5yr 8mo.
Starting later will mean she will do her LC at 18y 8months (that is without TY)

We'd love to hear the opinions of second level teachers about this.

Kids are eager to leave school and be adults.

But the older the better in my opinion.

Most 30 year olds would get 600 points at the leaving cert as they are mature, have sense and know how to study etc...

So it makes sense that age is a help.

Id much sooner my child be 19 than 16 doing the leaving cert.

Id also prefer they have some sense before leavinv them off to college too

heldel00 · 26-04-2021 10:18pm

Ireland just seems to have an obsession with sending children to school as quick as they can but thankfully the two year preschool scheme is helping is move away from that.

Hontou · 26-04-2021 10:29pm

I have the opposite opinion. I have 4 teenagers and am also a secondary teacher. 2 of my kids skipped TY and did/will do their leaving cert at 17. With most going to college for longer these days, I think they start working full time too late. Teenagers and young adults have great enthusiasm and energy and I think this is oppressed by years of study. (I exclude any career where years of study is essential here).This energy may be better utilised in the workplace. Teenagers are capable of a lot of responsibility and that matures them, not just age. This opinion is based on my observations, but of course family, opportunity and work ethic come into it too.

To answer your question, I think 17 or 18 is fine for the leaving cert. 19 is too old.

Treppen · 26-04-2021 11:25pm

Any of the older sixth years I know seem pretty sullen and a bit tired of it all, whereas the slightly younger students still have a bit of pep in their step.

TheValeyard · 26-04-2021 11:56pm

All my H1 students are usually older and have done TY. That extra year of maturity seems to ground them. And it's quite common to have a couple of 19year olds in a class in my experience.

solerina · 29-04-2021 12:25pm

I think once students get over 18 they seem eager to move on, they are not as willing to have teachers telling them what to do. Those who do TY often fall into this category.
A child starting at 5 years 8 months would be very old doing the LC if they did TY. If the child is mature enough I would go for 4.8

noplacehere · 29-04-2021 12:28pm

I was 18 in the August of 6th year and 19 going into college. I always felt older and more mature than my peers and it annoyed the bejaysus out of me. I think maybe turning 18 during 6th year sure, but 18 going into 6th year felt like I just wanted to have moved on already.

We sent our end of January birthday son last year at 4 years and 8 months because I was looking ahead. Both preschools he attended and the childminder and the creche all said he was ready (we had changes in childcare during the preschool years). I want him to do TY. It was a very important growth year for me as a person and I felt if he was 5 years 8 months and then did TY he'd be very old going into 6th year. One of his friends in creche had a birthday two weeks after him and stayed an extra year. The mum regretted it because he had wanted to go to school and was sick of preschool.

My key take away is know the child. For those borderline birthdays I think speaking to their teachers etc is very important

sandyxxx · 30-04-2021 4:57am

heldel00 wrote: »

Popping over here from the Primary teaching forum.
We have quite an interesting discussion going about the best age for children to start primary school.
The new ECCE (preschool) scheme will no longer accept children born after the 31st December until the following Sept.
Eg: my own daughter was born in early January, she will start preschool this Sept at age 3yrs 8months. She will either do one year of preschool and start "big" school at 4yr 8months or do two years and start at 5yr 8mo.
Starting later will mean she will do her LC at 18y 8months (that is without TY)

We'd love to hear the opinions of second level teachers about this.

Our 2yr old born early December will start @ 2yr 9 maths which is perfect.....he’ll start school at 4yrs9mths.......the leaving cert @ almost 19 is tiring as they have outgrown the regimentality and rules of the school system by then and are practically young adults by that stage....starting late would almost rule out any potential repeat of the leaving cert and TY can work wonders for the right students in certain conditions!

jam17032010 · 01-05-2021 3:12am

My own birthday is in August and I went to school at 4y 1m. Didn't have TY in my school and was 16 doing the Leaving Cert, 17 when the results came out. I did pretty well in the LC, I'm not sure if the extra year would have made a difference to my results, BUT, I was far too young for University.

I was an immature young fella and had no sense of self motivation in terms of my learning and I barely scraped through to get a pass degree. Not having an honours degree has hampered me in a few ways and I would love to have my time back. And in contrast, I've had no issue doing Masters courses in my more mature years.

Now, my 2 youngest daughters (of 3) have birthdays in December and February. The girl born in December will start school this September at 4y 9m and we are debating what to do about our youngest (Feb birthday).

My instinct is to send her off at 4y 6m but I think we will just try to judge her maturity at the time.

Their ability to manage Primary school would be my main focus and the Leaving Cert does not come in to my head. If, when we are approaching the Leaving Cert, I feel they are two old/young for the Leaving, we can opt in/out of TY to suit, would be my thinking.

Treppen · 01-05-2021 1:58pm

jam17032010 wrote: »

My own birthday is in August and I went to school at 4y 1m. Didn't have TY in my school and was 16 doing the Leaving Cert, 17 when the results came out. I did pretty well in the LC, I'm not sure if the extra year would have made a difference to my results, BUT, I was far too young for University.

I was an immature young fella and had no sense of self motivation in terms of my learning and I barely scraped through to get a pass degree. Not having an honours degree has hampered me in a few ways and I would love to have my time back. And in contrast, I've had no issue doing Masters courses in my more mature years.

Now, my 2 youngest daughters (of 3) have birthdays in December and February. The girl born in December will start school this September at 4y 9m and we are debating what to do about our youngest (Feb birthday).

My instinct is to send her off at 4y 6m but I think we will just try to judge her maturity at the time.

Their ability to manage Primary school would be my main focus and the Leaving Cert does not come in to my head. If, when we are approaching the Leaving Cert, I feel they are two old/young for the Leaving, we can opt in/out of TY to suit, would be my thinking.

I could have written the same first 2 paragraphs myself.

So ya, older 6th years might be more mature, bored and eager to get out... But that's a good thing for college.

I had little sense of self motivation when I went to college at 18... Good motivation for house parties and whatnot though!

heldel00 · 01-05-2021 2:41pm

jam17032010 wrote: »

Their ability to manage Primary school would be my main focus and the Leaving Cert does not come in to my head. If, when we are approaching the Leaving Cert, I feel they are two old/young for the Leaving, we can opt in/out of TY to suit, would be my thinking.

Ya see i would be thinking the opposite. I'm a primary teacher myself and i see children supported/ mollycoddled the whole way through primary. Children are scaffolded from infants up but then struggle when they go to secondary.
Plus i wouldn't be hedging all my bets on TY. By the time our children are old enough and if the government decide to tighten the purse strings to cut costs, it could all be a distant memory.
If my child does 2 yrs preschool she will be 18 the Jan before she does her Leaving Cert. I think it's perfect age but all opinions welcome here. I'm enjoying the discussion. (Helps me realise I'm not the only one thinking/ over thinking this.)

rainbowtrout · 01-05-2021 10:57pm

heldel00 wrote: »

Ya see i would be thinking the opposite. I'm a primary teacher myself and i see children supported/ mollycoddled the whole way through primary. Children are scaffolded from infants up but then struggle when they go to secondary.

But that's up to you as a parent to teach them life skills and gain independence as they get older. There are students in my class in first year who want to be spoonfed and there are students who get on with things because that is how it is in their homes.

heldel00 · 02-05-2021 8:45am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But that's up to you as a parent to teach them life skills and gain independence as they get older. There are students in my class in first year who want to be spoonfed and there are students who get on with things because that is how it is in their homes.

I'm not talking about my own children when i mention mollycoddling,
I'm talking about the system that is in place at primary school. Children cushioned (and rightly so where necessary) and then finding themselves at sea in second level.

tscul32 · 02-05-2021 9:08am

I hate the "you know your child best" line. I was 4 in july and started school a few weeks later. I got a very good LC at 16 and had an honours degree at 20. But while I was independent and academically strong I was too young for secondary school and two young for college. I coped because I'm stubborn and determined, but I didn't enjoy it anywhere as much as I should have - was 2nd year college before I was 18. But my mam still thinks I was ready and has no regrets.
My kids are Nov, Dec and 1st week Jan. The first two went to school at 4y9/10. The third only went at 4y8 because he's the third so socially and emotionally way ahead of where the other two were at that age. Any younger though and we'd have waited.

Treppen · 02-05-2021 9:09am

heldel00 wrote: »

I'm not talking about my own children when i mention mollycoddling,
I'm talking about the system that is in place at primary school. Children cushioned (and rightly so where necessary) and then finding themselves at sea in second level.

Ya it is a bit of a shock for some... Growing up in Ireland report deals with it.

shtpEdthePlum · 02-05-2021 9:15am

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Kids are eager to leave school and be adults.

But the older the better in my opinion.

Most 30 year olds would get 600 points at the leaving cert as they are mature, have sense and know how to study etc...

So it makes sense that age is a help.

Id much sooner my child be 19 than 16 doing the leaving cert.

Id also prefer they have some sense before leavinv them off to college too

I started school early, skipped ty and did the leaving cert when i was 17. This enabled me to take a gap year and have real, chosen, independent experiences living away from home and supporting myself which enabled me to continue making money to fund college.

I recently got a promotion which bumped me up two and a half points up the pay scale, so at 30 I'm earning €60k. I don't know if those chips would have fallen where they did if I wasn't able to get out of the hell that is school. The later the better is a ridiculous presumption.

Treppen · 02-05-2021 9:19am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

I started school early, skipped ty and did the leaving cert when i was 17. This enabled me to take a gap year and have real, chosen, independent experiences living away from home and supporting myself which enabled me to continue making money to fund college.

I recently got a promotion which bumped me up two and a half points up the pay scale, so at 30 I'm earning €60k. I don't know if those chips would have fallen where they did if I wasn't able to get out of the hell that is school. The later the better is a ridiculous presumption.

The first sentence negates the second.

shtpEdthePlum · 02-05-2021 10:24am

Fair enough. I'm not claiming that leaving school early was the reason for my early promotion, I'm just saying it worked out in my favour. It likely works out well for a proportion of people and not for others.

It's not something which can be predicted with any certainty on a case by case basis.

Staying in school, in my opinion, would have completely stifled me and possibly even ruined my life. I knew that, and i knew i needed to gtfo of the system. Some of those graduating same year as me who were older are still feckin babies now though.

spurious · 02-05-2021 11:39am

It very much depends on the person, but as a general rule, being of an age to (legally) avail of all the college experience offers is best. Being 18+ can also bring a maturity to any interview/presentation situations someone finds themselves in.

It does depend on the person however.

plibige · 02-05-2021 11:46am

I done TY when I probably shouldn't have, and turned 19 the summer after I done my leaving cert. I ended up repeating a year in college and have permanently felt like I have been 2-3 years "behind" everyone in life.

There's a lot to be said for being in with your peers. Obviously this feeling has sort of slowly disappeared the further I get into my working life, but I sort of permanently have a "what if" feeling in my head.

I did a 4 year degree too, so it took me 5 years. Meaning people I was in school with who didn't do TY and did a 3 year degree finished 3 years ahead of me

solerina · 02-05-2021 11:50am

heldel00 wrote: »

I'm not talking about my own children when i mention mollycoddling,
I'm talking about the system that is in place at primary school. Children cushioned (and rightly so where necessary) and then finding themselves at sea in second level.

I think it’s a really big problem, many of today’s PP students (am PP so dont know enough P students) have been brought up believing that they can do no wrong and that they are always right.
I find that so many lack resilience and cannot cope with even the smallest problems they encounter. The sheer number of stressed students we meet weekly is shocking, and this is increasing year on year. Snowflake generation is certainly not a misnomer as many seem to get stressed over very little.

starlady1 · 02-05-2021 2:01pm

solerina wrote: »

I think it’s a really big problem, many of today’s PP students (am PP so dont know enough P students) have been brought up believing that they can do no wrong and that they are always right.
I find that so many lack resilience and cannot cope with even the smallest problems they encounter. The sheer number of stressed students we meet weekly is shocking, and this is increasing year on year. Snowflake generation is certainly not a misnomer as many seem to get stressed over very little.

Primary teacher here and can confirm we see the same if not worse. I have taught Junior Infants where I am the first person to tell them no and to correct them for poor behaviour.

The lack of resiliance and inability to cope with problems is no doubt down to helicopter parents. We see it daily. There are an increasing number of parents who are in over every little thing and turning what are small normal conflicts between children into huge issues without letting their child have any scope to problem solve themselves.

It is no surprise these students are having issues at second level.

shtpEdthePlum · 02-05-2021 2:51pm

The real world is sometimes the shock to the system that immature people need. Others will coast it throughout life. A lot has to do with socioeconomic factors, but there are relatively more safety nets there nowadays to help those with a disadvantage.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ucd-a-joke-university-under-fire-lecturer-tells-students-1.4550282
This lad gets it.

heldel00 · 03-05-2021 7:08am

^^^ read that article. Absolutely shocking. And journalist worse to entertain it.

I have seen the nonsense that goes on with parents in primary schools and i refuse to be that parent. My own Junior Infant comes home, eats, sits up at table, looks at homework by himself (eg: written maths), tries to guess what he has to do, asks me is he right and away he goes. I'll potter about the kitchen and help where needed.

Standards are slipping drastically. I have a stash of old English and maths workbooks to challenge the more able learners. No way would the average/ above average be able for the content. And these are very ordinary workbooks (New treasury of English being a particular favourite) that you and I would have completed no problem back in the day. This is to do with an overloaded curriculum that seriously needs to be pared back.
I've gone off point here, sorry. Rant over.

Wanderer78 · 03-05-2021 7:55am

heldel00 wrote:

Popping over here from the Primary teaching forum. We have quite an interesting discussion going about the best age for children to start primary school. The new ECCE (preschool) scheme will no longer accept children born after the 31st December until the following Sept. Eg: my own daughter was born in early January, she will start preschool this Sept at age 3yrs 8months. She will either do one year of preschool and start "big" school at 4yr 8months or do two years and start at 5yr 8mo. Starting later will mean she will do her LC at 18y 8months (that is without TY)

Id start her later, a year of maturity can make a world of difference, we re trying to stuff kids through the system as fast as possible, many quit third level at the very early stages, that year might help, best of luck

Treppen · 03-05-2021 8:04am

I'm not sure about the article and Snowflake millennials etc.
If anything I wish I'd complained more about a few of the trash courses the college offered me. Generally they were ok though but you basically took whatever you got and nobody complained.
If we had complained then the quality might have improved .

In the flip side I've recently worked for a college before and there was reasonably good oversight , there was always the veiled threat of appeal if you didn't go by the book so it kept you on your toes with standard etc.

Greentree_uk · 03-05-2021 8:20am

Ireland does seem obsessed with getting kids to school early and I think a lot of that is due to cost. Personally I ensured my daughter was 5 before she went to school and here's why, she was born in May, and I want her to have options when she finishes school. I will likely be encouraging her to do TY for personal growth but that will be decided nearer the time. what I took away from her was the possibility to finish school at 16/17 She will be at least 18 when she finishes, TY or not. At which point she will then have the option to do what she likes, travel - I'll be encouraging atleast a years break before further education and because she is 18 she can travel without restriction. Or she can get a job again without relative restriction or both. I finished my education with all the qualifications I could get at 16, not 17 until the November, and left with no other choice really but to go to university, and that's what I did, I was too young, had done enough study at that stage, needed time to grow and develop personally and University while I would not swap my learnings now, wasn't the place to do it. I took me until mid 30's to afford to go back to college and study to get my Degree. Done part time it was actually the best of both worlds and an option I'd encourage too. I'm not saying my experience is the same for all but I know back then all I wanted to do was get out of university and start earning money. I look back now and had I a different option I would have taken it. Those years are full of new things, drinking, ability to buy drink, cigarettes legally, learning to drive, Able to work in jobs without restrictions. Ability to travel alone. Right to Vote, Recognised as an Adult, be in a pub legally, leave home, sign a lease etc. It a lot and my daughter will enjoy all of that time learning about her new rights. without the pressures of more education. Kids need time to be kids, regardless of how smart they are, After all they are among the best times of their lives, and they should enjoy them.

noplacehere · 03-05-2021 8:51am

To be fair, the May birthdays are relatively easy. I don’t know any children going at 4 years and 3 months nowadays. It’s the Nov-jan birthdays that make people pause. Even turning 19 having done TY. it would be 19 just before their LC for a May baby but 5 years is one thing, 5 years but almost six is older. Add in TY and then they’re almost 20 going into college? That’s really quite old IMO.

I do think there may be a consequence for TY coming in the shifting of the age range and two years of preschool and a general adjustment might be needed to second level. I’m hugely pro TY as it really helped me find my loves in a way that junior cert/leaving cert did not. It would be a huge adjustment but the building of TY into the standard LC curriculum would be beneficial in my opinion. Work experience for all. ECDL and basic computer skills. Driving skills etc.

That’s pretty drastic though!!

starlady1 · 03-05-2021 1:54pm

noplacehere wrote: »

To be fair, the May birthdays are relatively easy. I don’t know any children going at 4 years and 3 months nowadays.
!

I am teaching a child who turned 4 last July and started in September at 4 years 2 months. Last term of Junior Infants now and the poor thing is really struggling and could have done with another year of preschool. They would have been much better off starting this September.

mr potato head · 03-05-2021 3:58pm

IMO age has very little to do with it, we all develop differently.
I have 17-year-olds coming through my modules who are at the same place in their personal growth as others in their 20s, they know their learning preferences, have personal targets and have a good work-life balance at college. I also have 18/19-year-olds who are nowhere near as comfortable and confident.

I stayed back in primary school, did transition year and a year 0 in university. I was 19 during the leaving cert and 24 finishing my primary degree, this was by far the best educational timeline for me, and the time I had to find my learning pathway has stood to me since.
I took every opportunity to play sports, get work experience/internships, travel, learn outside the curriculum and I've never felt behind.

noplacehere · 03-05-2021 7:40pm

starlady1 wrote: »

I am teaching a child who turned 4 last July and started in September at 4 years 2 months. Last term of Junior Infants now and the poor thing is really struggling and could have done with another year of preschool. They would have been much better off starting this September.

Good lord that mental?! I don’t know any starting at that age

appledrop · 03-05-2021 8:05pm

starlady1 wrote: »

I am teaching a child who turned 4 last July and started in September at 4 years 2 months. Last term of Junior Infants now and the poor thing is really struggling and could have done with another year of preschool. They would have been much better off starting this September.

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

noplacehere · 03-05-2021 8:08pm

appledrop wrote: »

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

Yeah that’s the same locally to me. Genuinely haven’t heard of a child that young in recent years

03-05-2021 8:13pm

Not a teacher, but I did my leaving cert at 16 due to the fact that I started primary school in the UK and was bumped up by a year (or maybe even two) when my family returned to live in Ireland.

I wouldn't recommend it. I managed okay, but I hated being the youngest in the class, and was I too young to go to college and found it hard to get a job after the LC. I did eventually get one when I was 17.

Turning 18 in sixth year, is perfect, I think.

appledrop · 03-05-2021 8:14pm

Three of my friends are primary school teachers.

They have never had a child that started too late but plenty that started two earlier and some of them never really catch up.

At the other end if you start too young you nearly have to do T.Y which is not right either. It better when it's a choice you can make.

Personally I think 18 is perfect age leaving which I was and going to college.

Then you can legally go out to nightclubs etc.

Its mad that 17 year olds are living on their own away at college when legally they are still a child.

I know some of their parents opt for digs for them for 1st year but it's still a bit mad.

Cateym · 03-05-2021 10:15pm

As a teacher of leaving certs and mother of an April baby I've opted to keep her until she's 5 years 4 months. She starts this September and has really come into her own this past year. I've noticed the age profile of leaving certs has changed a lot. I have a good few 19 year olds in my two leaving cert classes and it's obvious as they are more mature. Especially among the lads. I haven't one 17 year old.

ETA I started school two weeks after my 4th birthday and I was such a baby. My mother kept me back in 6th class as TY wasn't in the secondary school I was going to go to. I ended up doing TY and genuinely I reckon it added a hundred points to my LC. More shocking is there was another girl in my junior infants class who didn't turn 4 until the end of September....

jam17032010 · 04-05-2021 1:33am

appledrop wrote: »

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

Why 1st of March? Is that recommended somewhere? Our youngest girl has her birthday on the 18th of Feb and we are debating what to do.

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 1:46am

Doing an extra year when a toddler reatricts you and puts pressure on you when you MOST need it. What will you do if there is serious illness in secondary school or a tragedy in the family and they need to repeat a year, or they need to repeat their LC to get their points as many do - being a 20 yr old God forbid starting college having done TY and been 19 1/2 finishing school and then going into 3rd level is no joke You’d be coming out aged almost 25. . And if you’re doing a 4 year course or repeat or decide to do an add-on it starts to become ridiculous. 2 years masters or HdIp on top of that or a basic degree and then accountancy or a basic science & then a masters - you’d be so old starting your first professional job it’d be a joke.

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

shesty · 04-05-2021 9:28am

We also have an April baby, she will be starting in September at 5 and 5 months. Most of her class are similar - the younger end of the class will be turning 5 between September and December of JI, and then they will all start to turn 6 from the Jan on.

Very, very surprised to hear of a school that took a July baby (even if they did need the numbers).

Jam, February is a very borderline month! The ECCE has pushed kids back a bit starting school, so they are all that bit older, but I think it is tricky when they are Jan/Feb babies.

shesty · 04-05-2021 9:32am

JustAThought wrote: »

Doing an extra year when a toddler reatricts you and puts pressure on you when you MOST need it. What will you do if there is serious illness in secondary school or a tragedy in the family and they need to repeat a year, or they need to repeat their LC to get their points as many do - being a 20 yr old God forbid starting college having done TY and been 19 1/2 finishing school and then going into 3rd level is no joke You’d be coming out aged almost 25. . And if you’re doing a 4 year course or repeat or decide to do an add-on it starts to become ridiculous. 2 years masters or HdIp on top of that or a basic degree and then accountancy or a basic science & then a masters - you’d be so old starting your first professional job it’d be a joke.

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

The flip side of this argument is all the people out there who question why we expect 17 year olds to decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives during the CAO process. We are measuring against what we were used to when we were kids, but times have changed. Sure plenty of students take a year out, repeat years, go travelling after college - whether they start work age 22 or 25 really makes very little difference I don't think. Maturity helps, anyway.....

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 9:56am

shesty wrote: »

The flip side of this argument is all the people out there who question why we expect 17 year olds to decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives during the CAO process. We are measuring against what we were used to when we were kids, but times have changed. Sure plenty of students take a year out, repeat years, go travelling after college - whether they start work age 22 or 25 really makes very little difference I don't think. Maturity helps, anyway.....

Exactly the reason why those years
are better needed in education LATER on in life -
NOT when a toddler. Starting to find
or look for your first job age 25
or 26 after taking a year out is ridiculous - far too late - especially for females who IF they want to have children themselves then start to find themselves in a poverty trap of a lowly paid junior role non management with just a few years of working experience before taking time to have a child and have paid maternity leave IF a very junior job will give it, and then hope to try get back into a proper career after that will pay enough not to crucify them in creche fees.

The choice for careers starts
with the range of subjects picked after the junior cert age 14 or 15 so the dye is cast then.Many students choose the ‘wrong’ course, fail a year, change their minds and start again ( the past 2 years show a 40% fail or drop out rate) or do add on F/T courses that take another two (or more) years. Thanks to our ‘knowledge economy’ touted by the government for years the bar is now set as a 2.1 honours degree minimum for most - or a higher level degree to be able to compete where thousands are being given visas and poured in to look for jobs and compete against ‘our own’ educated unemployed and often non-paid ( internship joke situation) lowly paid children.

An aprecticeship used take 7 years and kids used leave school at JC level - or before - to start one. Now you’ll get nowhere in life without a LC - thats’s another 3 years added to the traditional age. Imagine doing a poor LC age 19 & not being academically ‘gifted’ and then having to serve an appallingly paid apprenticeship for 7 years & not earn a living wage until you are nearly 27/8.

etc

I remember at both primary and secondary school there were ALWAYS older, slower kids who had to stay back a year and were dumped in a new class where they rarely got on or fitted in properly socially and never moved much beyond the bottom percentile despite their work and existing additional year. It always struck me as being such a poor outcome for the child and one that stuck with them for the rest of their time in the year/school.

shesty · 04-05-2021 10:07am

I think that is a commentary on the state of our wider society and education system there, rather than at what point a 4 or 5 year old is emotionally ready to start school.

It's a valid argument in terms of whether TY is needed, whether all students should be pushed into academic courses in college, what types of careers women achieve and where the balance lies for many women in home life/working/childcare, but maybe that is for a different conversation.

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 10:12am

shesty wrote: »

I think that is a commentary on the state of our wider society and education system there, rather than at what point a 4 or 5 year old is emotionally ready to start school.

It's a valid argument in terms of whether TY is needed, whether all students should be pushed into academic courses in college, what types of careers women achieve and where the balance lies for many women in home life/working/childcare, but maybe that is for a different conversation.

Yes i agree - but factor in not whether a child is emotionally ready for school but if a mother is emotionally ready to admit her child is growing ip and about to ‘leave her’ and she will have to find another reason to fill in her days other thN holding the child back and disadvantaging it for all its educational choices in life for her own rosy glow and sense of being needed/useful.

mr potato head · 04-05-2021 10:28am

JustAThought wrote: »

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

I've had long conversations with dozens of young people who feel railroaded into college before they were sure what they wanted, they are so scared to change direction because there is a societal pressure to stick to certain age milestones. This is not a way to have a healthy and happy person starting their adult life.

Having done an internship in Germany in my 20s, I much preferred the non-linear approach many of my friends took to their education. They used a practicum as ways to refine their education and put it in context and were usually a year or so older than Irish graduates.

There is no singular linear path, our education system is far too inflexible to allow for young people to easily find what will make them happy.
If the norm becomes children starting out with an expected LC age of 17, there should be a normality in some adjustment over the course of their development and they may be 18-19 at LC to allow for individual development.

Princess Calla · 04-05-2021 10:48am

shesty wrote: »

We also have an April baby, she will be starting in September at 5 and 5 months. Most of her class are similar - the younger end of the class will be turning 5 between September and December of JI, and then they will all start to turn 6 from the Jan on.

.

We're the same and 3 of their close friends are all very close in birthdays.

However they did come home from school the other day and there was a birthday and the child only turned 5...so there's a full year difference.

I worry more on the social side what that year difference will make.

Things like puberty, some people start puberty late anyway but if you're already a biological year behind.

Being allowed into venues, getting a part-time job etc.

An older leaving cert age is going to become the norm.

mr potato head · 04-05-2021 10:50am

JustAThought wrote: »

I remember at both primary and secondary school there were ALWAYS older, slower kids who had to stay back a year and were dumped in a new class where they rarely got on or fitted in properly socially and never moved much beyond the bottom percentile despite their work and existing additional year. It always struck me as being such a poor outcome for the child and one that stuck with them for the rest of their time in the year/school.

I resent the idea that someone who stays back is slower.
In many cases, we had not yet discovered our learning preferences, those of us lucky enough to find teachers to help us form approaches to learning we were able to excel.

The problem is the dumping of kids into another class and somehow expecting this to be a solution, this is the poor outcome.

Princess Calla · 04-05-2021 10:55am

JustAThought wrote: »

Yes i agree - but factor in not whether a child is emotionally ready for school but if a mother is emotionally ready to admit her child is growing ip and about to ‘leave her’ and she will have to find another reason to fill in her days other thN holding the child back and disadvantaging it for all its educational choices in life for her own rosy glow and sense of being needed/useful.

Ah come on!!

The majority of mothers work full time. Their days are already full to the brim.

Children are being left in creche from the year old mark or childminders.

If anything there's an incentive to start children in school earlier to keep childcare costs down.

riffmongous · 04-05-2021 11:08am

There's also a lot of social effects that aren't so easy to quantify but can have a huge effect on wellbeing and motivation. Having classmates up to 2 years older than you means they are physically and sexually more advanced which is a huge stress at certain points.

spurious · 04-05-2021 11:47am

On the old 'green registers' we used to have to fill in (VEC schools) for the Department, there was a section to put in the age in years and months of first years who had to be at least 12 on the 1st November of their first year in secondary school. That was a good few years ago, so I don't know if the Department still have that rule.

I see on Citizen's information

To attend second-level they must be aged 12 on 1 January in the first school year of attendance. (my bold)

A school year being August to June, I suppose that means a child going into secondary school this August must be 12 by January 2022, which seems quite young to me.

It's not at all clear.

heldel00 · 04-05-2021 12:15pm

riffmongous wrote: »

There's also a lot of social effects that aren't so easy to quantify but can have a huge effect on wellbeing and motivation. Having classmates up to 2 years older than you means they are physically and sexually more advanced which is a huge stress at certain points.

This is my thinking exactly. We live quite rural and two neighbour children wilk be in the same class as my daughter IF she only does one year of playschool. One of them is 9 months older and the other will be 8 months older. This will not matter a jot when they are 18/19 yrs old but def will in latter end of primary and secondary school.
I'm trying to avoid unnecessary worry/ pressure/ angst for my daughter and feel she will be better able to cope if she is that little bit older.

Advice needed - appropriate age for completing Leaving Cert

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