St Annes Park Planning Application

downtheroad · 14-09-2018 3:16pm

jon1981 wrote: »

downtheroad wrote: »

I'm just wondering what do people expect to happen with this land now though? The developer is unlikely to become a philanthropist and donate the land to the public. It is far more likely that a new plan will be put together to build housing on this land..

This is my gripe, no effort was made to develop the land by adding amenities to the area. A pool was removed and replaced with apartments. A community gym/pool/pitches/tennis/kids camps would be great for the location. If you've ever used the DLR leisure facilities on the southside you'd see what I mean.

http://dlrleisure.ie/meadowbrook/

Completely agree. Do you think the public would accept a redesigned proposal that includes hundreds of apartments, some retail area for a café and small supermarket (nearest are Super Valu Killester and Raheny, Nolans Clontarf or Tesco/Lidl in Artane), childcare, and a facility similar to DLR?

In my opinion, such a development would be a welcome addition to the area, and far more beneficial than a fenced off field of overgrown grass that will continue to lie idle until eventually planning permission for a residential development is granted.

jon1981 · 14-09-2018 3:27pm

downtheroad wrote: »

Completely agree. Do you think the public would accept a redesigned proposal that includes hundreds of apartments, some retail area for a café and small supermarket (nearest are Super Valu Killester and Raheny, Nolans Clontarf or Tesco/Lidl in Artane), childcare, and a facility similar to DLR?

In my opinion, such a development would be a welcome addition to the area, and far more beneficial than a fenced off field of overgrown grass that will continue to lie idle until eventually planning permission for a residential development is granted.

I think so because it stinks less of "greedy developer" and smells more of "developer who cares about the community" ... though I'm sure the objections would still be high. I certainly would be more open to it.

kona · 18-09-2018 3:12pm

Judging by this new development about 50m away, i cant see many of these houses helping the housing crisis unless u have a spare 700k lying around.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/green-belt-living-by-st-anne-s-park-1.3618093?mode=amp

Gloomtastic! · 18-09-2018 3:25pm

kona wrote: »

Judging by this new development about 50m away, i cant see many of these houses helping the housing crisis unless u have a spare 700k lying around.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/green-belt-living-by-st-anne-s-park-1.3618093?mode=amp

Every new house, regardless of price, helps to free up houses further down the property ladder. Empty nesters will move from 3/4 bedroom homes to 1/2 bed apartments.

Sleeper12 · 18-09-2018 3:29pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Every new house, regardless of price, helps to free up houses further down the property ladder. Empty nesters will move from 3/4 bedroom homes to 1/2 bed apartments.

Or some of the the 10s of thousands of adults living with parents will move in but I do get your point. More buildings + A good thing

jon1981 · 18-09-2018 3:44pm

Where are the prices listed for those properties? I can't see them on the link or i can't access it.

kona · 18-09-2018 4:32pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Every new house, regardless of price, helps to free up houses further down the property ladder. Empty nesters will move from 3/4 bedroom homes to 1/2 bed apartments.

Sure they will :rolleyes:

Half the people on the road i grew up on are over 60 and living in 5 bed houses of which 3 or 4 of the bedrooms are empty.

kona · 18-09-2018 4:33pm

jon1981 wrote: »

Where are the prices listed for those properties? I can't see them on the link or i can't access it.

It starts at 380k for a 1bed and ends at around 700k for a 3 bed house.

Gloomtastic! · 18-09-2018 5:22pm

kona wrote: »

Sure they will :rolleyes:

Half the people on the road i grew up on are over 60 and living in 5 bed houses of which 3 or 4 of the bedrooms are empty.

Maybe we need some of those housing activists to protest outside aul wans houses. That'll soon shift them. :rolleyes:

jon1981 · 18-09-2018 5:27pm

New development on St Brigids road in Killester has 3 bed terrace houses priced at 550k. Currently at planning stage. 1 bed Apartments @ 250k up to 450k for a 3 bed Apartment. Its on the grounds of the Holy Faith Convent Killester.

Sleeper12 · 18-09-2018 5:28pm

kona wrote: »

Sure they will :rolleyes:

Half the people on the road i grew up on are over 60 and living in 5 bed houses of which 3 or 4 of the bedrooms are empty.

We need a bedroom tax & tax incentives to encourage downsizing. Carrot & stick

jon1981 · 18-09-2018 5:29pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We need a bedroom tax & tax incentives to encourage downsizing. Carrot & stick

We need decent smaller homes in the locality. Can't expect a person in their 60s who lived there all their lives to relocate out of the area just to downsize. We'll all be old someday.

Spanish Eyes · 18-09-2018 5:34pm

How did the development get through local objections when the swimming pool was built on? Was everyone ok with the loss of that amenity?

Seth Brundle · 18-09-2018 5:35pm

jon1981 wrote: »

We need decent smaller homes in the locality. Can't expect a person in their 60s who lived there all their lives to relocate out of the area just to downsize. We'll all be old someday.

...and taking Raheny as an example, where would you build all of these decent smaller homes?

Spanish Eyes · 18-09-2018 5:38pm

Four storey or more apartments with a decent size balcony, room for eating and sitting there would be my ideal when I need to downsize!

But remember those moving from a freehold house will pay a hefty annual fee to a management company. I think that puts a lot of people off.

odyssey06 · 18-09-2018 5:39pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

How did the development get through local objections when the swimming pool was built on? Was everyone ok with the loss of that amenity?

This one went through fast track planning process... short cut for we don't care about local objections.

expectationlost · 18-09-2018 5:45pm

there is suggestion that every estate should be required legally to build some older person suitable housing, so as is suggested above that people can move in to smaller houses but stay in the same area

Spanish Eyes · 18-09-2018 5:45pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

This one went through fast track planning process... short cut for we don't care about local objections.

But St Anne’s didn’t get through because of the geese or something!

And DCC were not in favour either. Why developers bother is beyond me, bet the fast track issue will be the guts of a lawsuit. Otherwise why bother.

Gloomtastic! · 18-09-2018 6:03pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

How did the development get through local objections when the swimming pool was built on? Was everyone ok with the loss of that amenity?

The swimming pool was pretty old and I think it got a crack in it that would have meant the whole thing needed rebuilding. Was never going to happen without public funds but it was privately owned by St Pauls.

Spanish Eyes · 18-09-2018 6:05pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

The swimming pool was pretty old and I think it got a crack in it that would have meant the whole thing needed rebuilding. Was never going to happen without public funds but it was privately owned by St Pauls.

Were the football fields publicly or privately owned.

Thanks for the explanation re the pool.

lawred2 · 18-09-2018 6:07pm

How did the Op's objection go? Summarily rejected I hope.

tricky D · 18-09-2018 6:24pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But St Anne’s didn’t get through because of the geese or something!

And DCC were not in favour either. Why developers bother is beyond me, bet the fast track issue will be the guts of a lawsuit. Otherwise why bother.

Pretty much nobody was in favour of it: locals, councillors, managers, etc. yet the Deciding Officer gave it the go ahead. However Crevak already have existing planning permission for 23 units in Edros, Howth, which was granted without any Assessments due under Habitats and Birds Directives, as well as the coastal planning requirements. I would have thought that this is ABP's job, but it is being left to ordinary folks to go to the High Court at a cost circa €30k a pop.

Sleeper12 · 18-09-2018 6:53pm

expectationlost wrote:

there is suggestion that every estate should be required legally to build some older person suitable housing, so as is suggested above that people can move in to smaller houses but stay in the same area

I can't speak for the rest of the country but most areas of Dublin have apartments. The ground floor is suitable for people getting on in years. No stairs etc.

kona · 18-09-2018 7:10pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We need a bedroom tax & tax incentives to encourage downsizing. Carrot & stick

Id have thought around 700k should be enough. What pensioner needs tax incentives?

kona · 18-09-2018 7:11pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Maybe we need some of those housing activists to protest outside aul wans houses. That'll soon shift them. :rolleyes:

They want free homes. Some people are actually willing to pay mortgages.

expectationlost · 18-09-2018 8:29pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can't speak for the rest of the country but most areas of Dublin have apartments. .

do they?

ixoy · 18-09-2018 10:05pm

jon1981 wrote: »

New development on St Brigids road in Killester has 3 bed terrace houses priced at 550k. Currently at planning stage. 1 bed Apartments @ 250k up to 450k for a 3 bed Apartment. Its on the grounds of the Holy Faith Convent Killester.

Somewhat pricey for a 3-bed terrace in the area when you look what else is available. Probably sell regardless.

Sleeper12 · 18-09-2018 10:07pm

expectationlost wrote:

do they?

Yes

expectationlost · 19-09-2018 12:35am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes

not in my estate, a few have been built as infill developments but obviously not planned for.

Sleeper12 · 19-09-2018 9:10am

expectationlost wrote:

not in my estate, a few have been built as infill developments but obviously not planned for.

Not every housing estate but plenty of apartments in every townland of Dublin.

jon1981 · 19-09-2018 9:48am

ixoy wrote: »

Somewhat pricey for a 3-bed terrace in the area when you look what else is available. Probably sell regardless.

That price is quoted based on costs estimated before they even break ground... likely to be higher. Agree 550k is pushing it... that said alot of old houses in the area are selling for 500k and probably require upward of 100k in renovations.

downtheroad · 19-09-2018 10:41am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

jon1981 wrote: »

We need decent smaller homes in the locality. Can't expect a person in their 60s who lived there all their lives to relocate out of the area just to downsize. We'll all be old someday.

...and taking Raheny as an example, where would you build all of these decent smaller homes?

Church land. Huge amounts of land being wasted in every suburb in Dublin having churches that are far too big for the number of people that actually attend.

A church in Finglas is downsizing and social housing being built on the site. This could be replicated all across Dublin.
http://www.thejournal.ie/finglas-church-closure-3220514-Feb2017/

Clontarf has 3 catholic churches, I'd start there and remove 2 of them and let the 3rd remain to cater for the area. Obviously this would require a lot of co-operation from both the church and state.

odyssey06 · 19-09-2018 12:05pm

downtheroad wrote: »

Clontarf has 3 catholic churches, I'd start there and remove 2 of them and let the 3rd remain to cater for the area. Obviously this would require a lot of co-operation from both the church and state.

Or the state could just use the land it already owns:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1121/921658-social-housing-local-authorities/

In Dublin city, where there are more than 22,000 people on the housing list, the local authority has directly built 56 homes in the same time period. It is estimated that the council owns enough land to support more than 12,000 properties.

But sure, give Eoghan Murphy another scapegoat to go with the grannies in nursing homes and empty nesters and Air BnB landlords and people with large gardens. Anything except doing a proper job to justify his salary.

downtheroad · 19-09-2018 2:15pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

downtheroad wrote: »

Clontarf has 3 catholic churches, I'd start there and remove 2 of them and let the 3rd remain to cater for the area. Obviously this would require a lot of co-operation from both the church and state.

Or the state could just use the land it already owns:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1121/921658-social-housing-local-authorities/

In Dublin city, where there are more than 22,000 people on the housing list, the local authority has directly built 56 homes in the same time period. It is estimated that the council owns enough land to support more than 12,000 properties.

But sure, give Eoghan Murphy another scapegoat to go with the grannies in nursing homes and empty nesters and Air BnB landlords and people with large gardens. Anything except doing a proper job to justify his salary.

I can't see any reference in that article to state owned land in either Raheny or Clontarf, the 2 examples used above. We absolutely do need smaller homes in our Dublin suburbs. I recently bought a house near St Annes and the number of houses I viewed that are appropriately sized for a family but were being occupied by 1 person was beyond belief. By building smaller sized homes in local areas, people will have an option to downsize if they so wish, thereby freeing up family sized homes for another generation to buy and keep the cycle moving.

It's all well and good if Dublin City Council have land to build on, but good luck asking somebody who has lived most of their life in a suburb such as Raheny to downsize to a property in an area they are unfamiliar with. My suggestion of using, what is in my opinion, wasted land that the church happen to own, at least is land in each suburb of Dublin that might appeal to local residents.

odyssey06 · 19-09-2018 2:29pm

downtheroad wrote: »

It's all well and good if Dublin City Council have land to build on, but good luck asking somebody who has lived most of their life in a suburb such as Raheny to downsize to a property in an area they are unfamiliar with. My suggestion of using, what is in my opinion, wasted land that the church happen to own, at least is land in each suburb of Dublin that might appeal to local residents.

It's a tiny amount of land relative to the state owned land.

There are many apartments already in Clontarf, new and old. Castle Avenue, Saint Lawrence Road either end etc
Apartments replaced the Old Shieling hotel in Raheny and Hollybrook Hotel in Killester and the Dollymount House.

If someone wanted to downsize they would be able to.

ozmo · 19-09-2018 5:26pm

downtheroad wrote: »

... using, what is in my opinion, wasted land that the church happen to own...

It may seem wasted to some - but to others its the heart of the village you would be ripping out.

We don't want to build on absolutely every square of space of Dublin- I thinking of the horrible concrete jungles of some UK and USA cities - and worse in other countries - sure you can get lots in - but would your residents be happy living there then?

John_Rambo · 19-09-2018 6:29pm

ozmo wrote: »

It may seem wasted to some - but to others its the heart of the village you would be ripping out.

Have you seen the architectural abomination that is Raheny (catholic) church?

Have you seen the abysmal attendance in Raheny (catholic) church on Sundays?

Pawwed Rig · 19-09-2018 6:43pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Have you seen the architectural abomination that is Raheny (catholic) church?

Not sure if you are being entirely serious but I would get behind this. It is an ugly monster of a yoke that would easily accommodate a large development. If you include the car park you have a pretty decent site. The train station could also be built over.
All Saints Church across the road could easily manage both congregations.

A really ambitious programme would incorporate the site as far as the Supervalu and have a massive residential/ commercial development.

Sleeper12 · 19-09-2018 7:26pm

John_Rambo wrote:

Have you seen the architectural abomination that is Raheny (catholic) church?

Ugliest building in the village by a country mile.

Pawwed Rig · 19-09-2018 8:30pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ugliest building in the village by a country mile.

The HSE box held up by steel girders at Watermill Road is a close second albeit less intrusive

ozmo · 19-09-2018 9:00pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Have you seen the architectural abomination that is Raheny (catholic) church?

It’s quite nice inside as modern churches go (can anyone name one modern Dublin building - anything - that they would consider really good..??) - but outside it did look much better before they took all the nice green stone from the spire.

But that’s health and safety in Ireland for ya.

John_Rambo · 19-09-2018 9:08pm

ozmo wrote: »

Got married there

Ah, good memories then... I hope your marriage lasts longer than the church Ozmo!!

ozmo wrote: »

It’s quite nice inside as modern churches go (can anyone name one modern Dublin building - anything - that they would consider not an architectural abomination..??) -

Yes, absolutely, loads of them, but that's for another thread.

downtheroad · 20-09-2018 11:46am

ozmo wrote: »

downtheroad wrote: »

... using, what is in my opinion, wasted land that the church happen to own...

It may seem wasted to some - but to others its the heart of the village you would be ripping out.

We don't want to build on absolutely every square of space of Dublin- I thinking of the horrible concrete jungles of some UK and USA cities - and worse in other countries - sure you can get lots in - but would your residents be happy living there then?

I said downsize the church, not remove it completely. The church in Raheny has been mentioned and sits on a huge site, adjacent to a DART station and is being wasted for the numbers of people that attend church services on a regular basis.

Clontarf has 3 churches. Gabriels is a monstrosity of a church on a huge site, while Johns and Anthonys are both in prime locations on the seafront. These are just examples, with a bit of thought could accommodate many houses and apartments in areas that people desire to live.

odyssey06 · 20-09-2018 12:13pm

downtheroad wrote: »

Clontarf has 3 churches. Gabriels is a monstrosity of a church on a huge site, while Johns and Anthonys are both in prime locations on the seafront. These are just examples, with a bit of thought could accommodate many houses and apartments in areas that people desire to live.

Gabriels and Anthonys are not just churches, but host many community activities. There are old and new apartments within 5 minutes of both.

St Johns sits on a very small site.

The suggestion that they are somehow impediments to downsizing is neither here nor there.

Clontarf has 3 churches, and how many schools? Does it need a rugby and cricket club? Maybe it should only have 1 pub and 1 restaurant.

This is a red herring proposal.

downtheroad · 20-09-2018 12:54pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

downtheroad wrote: »

Clontarf has 3 churches. Gabriels is a monstrosity of a church on a huge site, while Johns and Anthonys are both in prime locations on the seafront. These are just examples, with a bit of thought could accommodate many houses and apartments in areas that people desire to live.

Gabriels and Anthonys are not just churches, but host many community activities. There are old and new apartments within 5 minutes of both.

St Johns sits on a very small site.

The suggestion that they are somehow impediments to downsizing is neither here nor there.

Clontarf has 3 churches, and how many schools? Does it need a rugby and cricket club? Maybe it should only have 1 pub and 1 restaurant.

This is a red herring proposal.

That's your opinion. I would suggest that the schools, rugby club, cricket club, pubs and restaurants are used by a lot more people, and are making far more efficient use of the land that they occupy. In my opinion the same cannot be said for the 3 catholic churches in the area.

And the reason that I brought up churches in the first place was because somebody asked where to find land in various suburbs and areas across Dublin. It's not an anti-church perspective, it just happens to be an organisation that has land in most towns and in this day and age is not making efficient use of the space that it is occupying.

Pawwed Rig · 20-09-2018 8:42pm

If they won't use All Saints church why not renovate the old church on the corner. Both All Saints and the old derelict are nicer buildings than Devine Grace and more appropriately sized to accommodate the future congregation (catholic anyway).

21-09-2018 11:02am

downtheroad wrote: »

In my opinion the same cannot be said for the 3 catholic churches in the area.

To be fair, he's not wrong about St John's - that site is about half an acre. It's literally the church and room to park a half dozen cars.

St Anthony's is more complicated - the issue with that site is the road frontage is a listed building (the old Clontarf Town hall) so you're limited in the access you can get. Aside from that, the church isn't the only thing on the site - there's a community centre and daycare there as well.

St Gabriels is probably the one that could go.

The weirdest bit of all this is that until the 1960s they were all one parish with a single church (which is its own nasty enough thing - why the hell was the church building palatial churches on the back of community donations when the country was dead broke?).

You could probably get the congregations into St Johns again at this point with a push.

ozmo · 30-01-2019 6:40pm

So some updates happening on this - apparently the developer is contacting Councillors directly complaining about how he is not allowed to build homes for all the homeless in the park and how costly the courts are going to be to him - does anyone have a link to the Irish Times article they ran on Monday? Cannot find it myself...

https://www.facebook.com/ilovestannes/posts/797438807263711

..
"This challenge has, at least for the time being, stopped the development of housing at St Paul’s. In the next few months hundreds of thousands of euros will be spent on consultants and lawyers (including by the State) as we move into the next round of the court process to show that the geese from Canada are happily feeding in alternative feeding grounds."

Sleeper12 · 30-01-2019 7:09pm

ozmo wrote: »

So some updates happening on this - apparently the developer is contacting Councillors directly complaining about how he is not allowed to build homes for all the homeless in the park and how costly the courts are going to be to him - does anyone have a link to the Irish Times article they ran on Monday? Cannot find it myself...

https://www.facebook.com/ilovestannes/posts/797438807263711

..
"This challenge has, at least for the time being, stopped the development of housing at St Paul’s. In the next few months hundreds of thousands of euros will be spent on consultants and lawyers (including by the State) as we move into the next round of the court process to show that the geese from Canada are happily feeding in alternative feeding grounds."

We've had a few rough sleepers in the park over the decades but none due to a homeless crisis. They are usually local men with drink or mental issues

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/developer-accused-of-emotional-blackmail-over-raheny-housing-site-1.3772498?fbclid=IwAR2Wtwg3ZasElhuEGqO1hrS4xq9VYBweSru9VdKqcwJ5YTQWtDPEzbXy624

Sleeper12 · 31-01-2019 2:22am

Another interesting thing. I just found out where these rough sleepers are. Directly across from the proposed development. In the 50 odd years I'm on this planet I've never seen rough sleepers in this spot. There is high footfall here. Traditionally they like to go into the woods away from the public.

It's very peculiar that they picked this spot beside the development. If any media was looking at the preposed development site they would almost trip over the tents. Very interesting choice of site for the tents.

The plot thickness.

St Annes Park Planning Application

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