Advice needed - appropriate age for completing Leaving Cert

noplacehere · 03-05-2021 7:40pm

starlady1 wrote: »

I am teaching a child who turned 4 last July and started in September at 4 years 2 months. Last term of Junior Infants now and the poor thing is really struggling and could have done with another year of preschool. They would have been much better off starting this September.

Good lord that mental?! I don’t know any starting at that age

appledrop · 03-05-2021 8:05pm

starlady1 wrote: »

I am teaching a child who turned 4 last July and started in September at 4 years 2 months. Last term of Junior Infants now and the poor thing is really struggling and could have done with another year of preschool. They would have been much better off starting this September.

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

noplacehere · 03-05-2021 8:08pm

appledrop wrote: »

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

Yeah that’s the same locally to me. Genuinely haven’t heard of a child that young in recent years

03-05-2021 8:13pm

Not a teacher, but I did my leaving cert at 16 due to the fact that I started primary school in the UK and was bumped up by a year (or maybe even two) when my family returned to live in Ireland.

I wouldn't recommend it. I managed okay, but I hated being the youngest in the class, and was I too young to go to college and found it hard to get a job after the LC. I did eventually get one when I was 17.

Turning 18 in sixth year, is perfect, I think.

appledrop · 03-05-2021 8:14pm

Three of my friends are primary school teachers.

They have never had a child that started too late but plenty that started two earlier and some of them never really catch up.

At the other end if you start too young you nearly have to do T.Y which is not right either. It better when it's a choice you can make.

Personally I think 18 is perfect age leaving which I was and going to college.

Then you can legally go out to nightclubs etc.

Its mad that 17 year olds are living on their own away at college when legally they are still a child.

I know some of their parents opt for digs for them for 1st year but it's still a bit mad.

Cateym · 03-05-2021 10:15pm

As a teacher of leaving certs and mother of an April baby I've opted to keep her until she's 5 years 4 months. She starts this September and has really come into her own this past year. I've noticed the age profile of leaving certs has changed a lot. I have a good few 19 year olds in my two leaving cert classes and it's obvious as they are more mature. Especially among the lads. I haven't one 17 year old.

ETA I started school two weeks after my 4th birthday and I was such a baby. My mother kept me back in 6th class as TY wasn't in the secondary school I was going to go to. I ended up doing TY and genuinely I reckon it added a hundred points to my LC. More shocking is there was another girl in my junior infants class who didn't turn 4 until the end of September....

jam17032010 · 04-05-2021 1:33am

appledrop wrote: »

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

Why 1st of March? Is that recommended somewhere? Our youngest girl has her birthday on the 18th of Feb and we are debating what to do.

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 1:46am

Doing an extra year when a toddler reatricts you and puts pressure on you when you MOST need it. What will you do if there is serious illness in secondary school or a tragedy in the family and they need to repeat a year, or they need to repeat their LC to get their points as many do - being a 20 yr old God forbid starting college having done TY and been 19 1/2 finishing school and then going into 3rd level is no joke You’d be coming out aged almost 25. . And if you’re doing a 4 year course or repeat or decide to do an add-on it starts to become ridiculous. 2 years masters or HdIp on top of that or a basic degree and then accountancy or a basic science & then a masters - you’d be so old starting your first professional job it’d be a joke.

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

shesty · 04-05-2021 9:28am

We also have an April baby, she will be starting in September at 5 and 5 months. Most of her class are similar - the younger end of the class will be turning 5 between September and December of JI, and then they will all start to turn 6 from the Jan on.

Very, very surprised to hear of a school that took a July baby (even if they did need the numbers).

Jam, February is a very borderline month! The ECCE has pushed kids back a bit starting school, so they are all that bit older, but I think it is tricky when they are Jan/Feb babies.

shesty · 04-05-2021 9:32am

JustAThought wrote: »

Doing an extra year when a toddler reatricts you and puts pressure on you when you MOST need it. What will you do if there is serious illness in secondary school or a tragedy in the family and they need to repeat a year, or they need to repeat their LC to get their points as many do - being a 20 yr old God forbid starting college having done TY and been 19 1/2 finishing school and then going into 3rd level is no joke You’d be coming out aged almost 25. . And if you’re doing a 4 year course or repeat or decide to do an add-on it starts to become ridiculous. 2 years masters or HdIp on top of that or a basic degree and then accountancy or a basic science & then a masters - you’d be so old starting your first professional job it’d be a joke.

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

The flip side of this argument is all the people out there who question why we expect 17 year olds to decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives during the CAO process. We are measuring against what we were used to when we were kids, but times have changed. Sure plenty of students take a year out, repeat years, go travelling after college - whether they start work age 22 or 25 really makes very little difference I don't think. Maturity helps, anyway.....

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 9:56am

shesty wrote: »

The flip side of this argument is all the people out there who question why we expect 17 year olds to decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives during the CAO process. We are measuring against what we were used to when we were kids, but times have changed. Sure plenty of students take a year out, repeat years, go travelling after college - whether they start work age 22 or 25 really makes very little difference I don't think. Maturity helps, anyway.....

Exactly the reason why those years
are better needed in education LATER on in life -
NOT when a toddler. Starting to find
or look for your first job age 25
or 26 after taking a year out is ridiculous - far too late - especially for females who IF they want to have children themselves then start to find themselves in a poverty trap of a lowly paid junior role non management with just a few years of working experience before taking time to have a child and have paid maternity leave IF a very junior job will give it, and then hope to try get back into a proper career after that will pay enough not to crucify them in creche fees.

The choice for careers starts
with the range of subjects picked after the junior cert age 14 or 15 so the dye is cast then.Many students choose the ‘wrong’ course, fail a year, change their minds and start again ( the past 2 years show a 40% fail or drop out rate) or do add on F/T courses that take another two (or more) years. Thanks to our ‘knowledge economy’ touted by the government for years the bar is now set as a 2.1 honours degree minimum for most - or a higher level degree to be able to compete where thousands are being given visas and poured in to look for jobs and compete against ‘our own’ educated unemployed and often non-paid ( internship joke situation) lowly paid children.

An aprecticeship used take 7 years and kids used leave school at JC level - or before - to start one. Now you’ll get nowhere in life without a LC - thats’s another 3 years added to the traditional age. Imagine doing a poor LC age 19 & not being academically ‘gifted’ and then having to serve an appallingly paid apprenticeship for 7 years & not earn a living wage until you are nearly 27/8.

etc

I remember at both primary and secondary school there were ALWAYS older, slower kids who had to stay back a year and were dumped in a new class where they rarely got on or fitted in properly socially and never moved much beyond the bottom percentile despite their work and existing additional year. It always struck me as being such a poor outcome for the child and one that stuck with them for the rest of their time in the year/school.

shesty · 04-05-2021 10:07am

I think that is a commentary on the state of our wider society and education system there, rather than at what point a 4 or 5 year old is emotionally ready to start school.

It's a valid argument in terms of whether TY is needed, whether all students should be pushed into academic courses in college, what types of careers women achieve and where the balance lies for many women in home life/working/childcare, but maybe that is for a different conversation.

JustAThought · 04-05-2021 10:12am

shesty wrote: »

I think that is a commentary on the state of our wider society and education system there, rather than at what point a 4 or 5 year old is emotionally ready to start school.

It's a valid argument in terms of whether TY is needed, whether all students should be pushed into academic courses in college, what types of careers women achieve and where the balance lies for many women in home life/working/childcare, but maybe that is for a different conversation.

Yes i agree - but factor in not whether a child is emotionally ready for school but if a mother is emotionally ready to admit her child is growing ip and about to ‘leave her’ and she will have to find another reason to fill in her days other thN holding the child back and disadvantaging it for all its educational choices in life for her own rosy glow and sense of being needed/useful.

mr potato head · 04-05-2021 10:28am

JustAThought wrote: »

The range at college for many starts at from 17 - qualified by 21, and starts first job age 22 or postgrad and first job age 24. That makes lifelong sense - not keeping babies in school in their first year until they are almost six & with a good brain & head on them! ( not remedial or special needs).

I've had long conversations with dozens of young people who feel railroaded into college before they were sure what they wanted, they are so scared to change direction because there is a societal pressure to stick to certain age milestones. This is not a way to have a healthy and happy person starting their adult life.

Having done an internship in Germany in my 20s, I much preferred the non-linear approach many of my friends took to their education. They used a practicum as ways to refine their education and put it in context and were usually a year or so older than Irish graduates.

There is no singular linear path, our education system is far too inflexible to allow for young people to easily find what will make them happy.
If the norm becomes children starting out with an expected LC age of 17, there should be a normality in some adjustment over the course of their development and they may be 18-19 at LC to allow for individual development.

Princess Calla · 04-05-2021 10:48am

shesty wrote: »

We also have an April baby, she will be starting in September at 5 and 5 months. Most of her class are similar - the younger end of the class will be turning 5 between September and December of JI, and then they will all start to turn 6 from the Jan on.

.

We're the same and 3 of their close friends are all very close in birthdays.

However they did come home from school the other day and there was a birthday and the child only turned 5...so there's a full year difference.

I worry more on the social side what that year difference will make.

Things like puberty, some people start puberty late anyway but if you're already a biological year behind.

Being allowed into venues, getting a part-time job etc.

An older leaving cert age is going to become the norm.

mr potato head · 04-05-2021 10:50am

JustAThought wrote: »

I remember at both primary and secondary school there were ALWAYS older, slower kids who had to stay back a year and were dumped in a new class where they rarely got on or fitted in properly socially and never moved much beyond the bottom percentile despite their work and existing additional year. It always struck me as being such a poor outcome for the child and one that stuck with them for the rest of their time in the year/school.

I resent the idea that someone who stays back is slower.
In many cases, we had not yet discovered our learning preferences, those of us lucky enough to find teachers to help us form approaches to learning we were able to excel.

The problem is the dumping of kids into another class and somehow expecting this to be a solution, this is the poor outcome.

Princess Calla · 04-05-2021 10:55am

JustAThought wrote: »

Yes i agree - but factor in not whether a child is emotionally ready for school but if a mother is emotionally ready to admit her child is growing ip and about to ‘leave her’ and she will have to find another reason to fill in her days other thN holding the child back and disadvantaging it for all its educational choices in life for her own rosy glow and sense of being needed/useful.

Ah come on!!

The majority of mothers work full time. Their days are already full to the brim.

Children are being left in creche from the year old mark or childminders.

If anything there's an incentive to start children in school earlier to keep childcare costs down.

riffmongous · 04-05-2021 11:08am

There's also a lot of social effects that aren't so easy to quantify but can have a huge effect on wellbeing and motivation. Having classmates up to 2 years older than you means they are physically and sexually more advanced which is a huge stress at certain points.

spurious · 04-05-2021 11:47am

On the old 'green registers' we used to have to fill in (VEC schools) for the Department, there was a section to put in the age in years and months of first years who had to be at least 12 on the 1st November of their first year in secondary school. That was a good few years ago, so I don't know if the Department still have that rule.

I see on Citizen's information

To attend second-level they must be aged 12 on 1 January in the first school year of attendance. (my bold)

A school year being August to June, I suppose that means a child going into secondary school this August must be 12 by January 2022, which seems quite young to me.

It's not at all clear.

heldel00 · 04-05-2021 12:15pm

riffmongous wrote: »

There's also a lot of social effects that aren't so easy to quantify but can have a huge effect on wellbeing and motivation. Having classmates up to 2 years older than you means they are physically and sexually more advanced which is a huge stress at certain points.

This is my thinking exactly. We live quite rural and two neighbour children wilk be in the same class as my daughter IF she only does one year of playschool. One of them is 9 months older and the other will be 8 months older. This will not matter a jot when they are 18/19 yrs old but def will in latter end of primary and secondary school.
I'm trying to avoid unnecessary worry/ pressure/ angst for my daughter and feel she will be better able to cope if she is that little bit older.

starlady1 · 04-05-2021 7:54pm

appledrop wrote: »

That's terrible, don't mean to critise but really school management should know better.

Most schools I know have a cut off point of say 1st Mar and if a child not 4 by then can't start till the following year.

That puts a stop to parents sending them to early.

I fully agree. I have not heard of schools having a cut off of 1st March that's a great idea. Would these my schools that are oversubscribed?

The management in my school all sent their own children to school at 4 and see nothing wrong with it.

I would be totally opposed to children who have just turned 4 starting Junior Infants as I see daily how much they struggle.

shtpEdthePlum · 05-05-2021 8:23am

Junior infants is not (or shouldn't be) a curriculum it's possible to struggle with. Also it's all repeated in seniors.

If a junior infant teacher is expecting them to sit all day doing literacy and numeracy, that's completely lousy and unnecessary. Our education system doesn't demand it and any system worth it's salt in the world lets children learn through play etc.

Four should be fine to send a child to school. They will have a year of playschool done. They don't need to be master socialites, just know how to coexist with others.

Princess Calla · 05-05-2021 11:12am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Junior infants is not (or shouldn't be) a curriculum it's possible to struggle with. Also it's all repeated in seniors.

If a junior infant teacher is expecting them to sit all day doing literacy and numeracy, that's completely lousy and unnecessary. Our education system doesn't demand it and any system worth it's salt in the world lets children learn through play etc.

Four should be fine to send a child to school. They will have a year of playschool done. They don't need to be master socialites, just know how to coexist with others.

It's not the curriculum that's an issue for the most part.

The introduction of the 2 year ecce scheme has shifted the age profile of the children.

When I started school like the majority here I'm sure, children started turning 5 through the year, so september-december birthdays were usually the eldest.

Now that has shifted with the majority of children starting school at 5, turning 6 through the year the September-december children are the youngest.

If you then decide to start your child at 4, when their peers are all 5 (turning 6 from January on) the 4 year old may struggle to keep up with a 5 year old.

It's not all about academic reading/writing etc but fine motor skills, ability to close their jacket, awareness of looking after their belongings. The physical and emotional side of development.

I'll be honest and say before I had kids I'd have been in the "I started school at 4 , got on grand "camp. However my peers were all 4 too, with maybe a 6 month deviation, older or younger. Now with the possibility of a year deviation we went with the child being in the older end of the age range. ....not for reasons regarding the school curriculum but , we're both small so our children are smaller which will come more into play at teenage years, stuff like peer pressure and underage drinking I'd rather them be that bit older to deal with that etc.

spurious · 07-05-2021 9:12am

Asked and answered here.
Veering WAY off topic with comments about mothers holding children back.

Not sure what forum that sort of crap is acceptable, but not here.

Advice needed - appropriate age for completing Leaving Cert

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