Universal basic income trial in Finland

07-04-2018 9:02pm

Useful work, I have to follow processes in my job that can take at least 5 hours to prepare to carry out a five minute task = 5 hours useless & 5 minutes useful.
For some work, the processes are necessary to avoid incidents happening, but that isn't true for all the tasks.

Ush1 · 07-04-2018 9:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It only causes inflation if the supply fails to expand to match demand, in this scenario people will not be going on spending sprees, they'll just be buying better quality products.
Fewer "yellow packs" and more Aldi finest for example.

Supply of what fails to match demand?

suicide_circus · 07-04-2018 9:03pm

Harika wrote: »

Show me how they are useful.

Academic administration for instance. How would a university function without administrative staff?

Ush1 · 07-04-2018 9:03pm

Harika wrote: »

financial services or telemarketing, or the unprecedented expansion of sectors like corporate law, academic and health administration, human resources, and public relations

Ah here...

07-04-2018 9:04pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Giving everyone in the country 30k is the absolute quickest way to make 30k "worthless".

Not at all, the recipients will still need that money to buy food, pay rent, phone bills etc

Owryan · 07-04-2018 9:05pm

Harika wrote: »

Indeed ask yourself what you would do when you get paid 1000 euros a month guaranteed. Would you stop working? If yes why? And could you pay all expenses with that?

What 1000 a month? The last report I saw was a payment of 160 a week plus extra per child.

07-04-2018 9:05pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Supply of what fails to match demand?

You tell me, you're saying that inflation will occur if people have more money.

Ush1 · 07-04-2018 9:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not at all, the recipients will still need that money to buy food, pay rent, phone bills etc

But of course! Those supermarkets, landlords and phone companies wouldn't dream of raising their prices in the knowledge that everyone in the country has an extra 30k. Must be their non profit, socialist dogma.

07-04-2018 9:07pm

Owryan wrote: »

What 1000 a month? The last report I saw was a payment of 160 a week plus extra per child.

Correct, it isn't "helicopter money" just a baseline income.

07-04-2018 9:08pm

Ush1 wrote: »

But of course! Those supermarkets, landlords and phone companies wouldn't dream of raising their prices in the knowledge that everyone in the country has an extra 30k. Must be their non profit, socialist dogma.

Well, for one, 30k it isn't, for two, market forces will kick in and any company that tries that will lose a lot of custom.

Ush1 · 07-04-2018 9:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You tell me, you're saying that inflation will occur if people have more money.

That's not what I said but I also said I'm not gonna bother explaining it.

Arthur Daley · 07-04-2018 9:10pm

KyussB wrote: »

You're aware of the long list of infrastructure and transport projects in need of doing in Dublin and around Ireland, right?

The massive and urgent need for houses to be built - going back years?

I mean for fuck sake, it's not hard to see all the work that needs doing Right. Now. - you see how obstructionist it looks, when you play blind to all that?

They have 3D Printers in Russia that will build a functional house for €10,000. This is habitable and can withstand Russian winters. Each of these machines could print hundreds of houses a year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527

Ush1 · 07-04-2018 9:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, for one, 30k it isn't, for two, market forces will kick in and any company that tries that will lose a lot of custom.

30k was an example, pick any number you like.

Yes they will, market forces is exactly the problem. Have you ever noticed the value of money only goes in one direction?

It's not like when real estate agents realised that two people were suddenly working in a household that they could charge more for a house, thank god the market forces saved us from ballooning property costs.

KyussB · 07-04-2018 9:14pm

Harika wrote: »

So the state decides what is deemed useful. Based on what? How is the process going to work if one person is employed for a month to polish up an estate? If anything this just creates more bureaucracy and slows the process down and makes it useless.

The principles used for deciding what work is considered useful, are a matter for public debate. The governments capability for providing the program is what matters.

We already have local councils managing work similar to that, don't we? You don't need any extra administration to manage that - there are already council workers who can sign off that the other person did that work - without requiring pre-approval.

Really, the whole idea of a reductio-ad-absurdum situation, regarding an out of control bureaucracy, is total nonsense - some people are pushing the myth that AI/automation will do away with so many jobs - yet at the same time others are suggesting that fairly simple things are unmanageable administratively, as if they can't be streamlined/automated.

Harika · 07-04-2018 9:19pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Academic administration for instance. How would a university function without administrative staff?

How did it work before with only one third of the staff?

KyussB · 07-04-2018 9:20pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

They have 3D Printers in Russia that will build a functional house for €10,000. This is habitable and can withstand Russian winters. Each of these machines could print hundreds of houses a year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527

There's an entire supply chain feeding that 3D printer, with a ton of jobs behind it - I don't disagree though, lets have a jobs program to put all the necessary people onto this work, and get it done...

Arthur Daley · 07-04-2018 9:20pm

KyussB wrote: »

Really, the whole idea of a reductio-ad-absurdum situation, regarding an out of control bureaucracy, is total nonsense - some people are pushing the myth that AI/automation will do away with so many jobs - yet at the same time others are suggesting that fairly simple things are unmanageable administratively, as if they can't be streamlined/automated.

Down at Kilkenomics last November at a talk on Universal Income, the Trinity economist Constantin Gurdiev reckoned that 1 in every 2 members of the audience will have lost their job to AI within the next 10-20 years. He now works with Google in California so he has that inside line on this.

The current stock market bubble is at least partially driven by supposed future earning gains from reducing the work force and replacing them with robots/AI/Machine Learning. If they weren't going to save money, they wouldn't be doing it, and their stock values wouldn't be soaring.

Harika · 07-04-2018 9:21pm

Owryan wrote: »

What 1000 a month? The last report I saw was a payment of 160 a week plus extra per child.

All numbers now are estimates, 160 a week sounds more like the citizens money that was suggested. Still would you stop working with that?

suicide_circus · 07-04-2018 9:26pm

Harika wrote: »

How did it work before with only one third of the staff?

More regulation and government interference creates bloating. A UBI will be the greatest piece of government inference of all time. Can you imagime the bureaucracies that will build up around it?

07-04-2018 9:28pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

More regulation and government interference creates bloating. A UBI will be the greatest piece of government inference of all time. Can you imagine the bureaucracies that will build up around it?

One PRSI number one payment, what's bureaucratic about that, if anything it will vastly reduce the bureaucratic overheads substantially as the benefits system will be vastly simplified.

Harika · 07-04-2018 9:29pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

More regulation and government interference creates bloating. A UBI will be the greatest piece of government inference of all time. Can you imagime the bureaucracies that will build up around it?

Why? Everyone gets the ubi no need to administer anything. Oh interference by putting the capitalistic system upside down, ofc no doubt.

KyussB · 07-04-2018 9:29pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Down at Kilkenomics last November at a talk on Universal Income, the Trinity economist Constantin Gurdiev reckoned that 1 in every 2 members of the audience will have lost their job to AI within the next 10-20 years. He now works with Google in California so he has that inside line on this.

The current stock market bubble is at least partially driven by supposed future earning gains from reducing the work force and replacing them with robots/AI/Machine Learning. If they weren't going to save money, they wouldn't be doing it, and their stock values wouldn't be soaring.

Keynes said we'd only be working 15 hour weeks by now. The most well respected economist of his time.

The AI we have today is just a more advanced form of iteratively processing data - it doesn't have the capability of cognitively processing information and making higher level decisions of what to do with that information, the way human and animal minds do - that's not even on the radar.

There's an entire and endless different range of useful work to be done, which doesn't fit in todays profit-oriented system - the amount of work that needs to be done Right. Now. is enormous, and much of it isn't being done - get back to me when we've solved e.g. the carbon emissions causing climate change (extraordinarily unprofitable work - given that nearly all profits up to today have been based one way or another, on releasing enormous amounts of carbon), and then try and tell me there's no more useful work to do, as right now there's a mountain of work, of all sorts, needing to be done...

suicide_circus · 07-04-2018 9:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One PRSI number one payment, what's bureaucratic about that, if anything it will vastly reduce the bureaucratic overheads substantially as the benefits system will be vastly simplified.

Possibly although all the evidence points towards no government ever shrinking in size. I can't really see it entirely replacing all SW payments though. There

Harika · 07-04-2018 9:35pm

KyussB wrote: »

Keynes said we'd only be working 15 hour weeks by now. The most well respected economist of his time.

The AI we have today is just a more advanced form of iteratively processing data - it doesn't have the capability of cognitively processing information and making higher level decisions of what to do with that information, the way human and animal minds do - that's not even on the radar.

There's an entire and endless different range of useful work to be done, which doesn't fit in todays profit-oriented system - the amount of work that needs to be done Right. Now. is enormous, and much of it isn't being done - get back to me when we've solved e.g. the carbon emissions causing climate change, and then try and tell me there's no more useful work to do, as right now there's a mountain of work, of all sorts, needing to be done...

Keynes predicted something that didn't happen, still others predicted something else. What is the point?
The AI is at the stage of a single super intelligence, read this article to see the further development expected. https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html
We are at the beginning still deep blue and Watson have shown how far they have gotten.
And what has the carbon emissions causing climate change to do with the ubi, if that counts I add meatless sausages to the argument.

Owryan · 07-04-2018 9:37pm

Harika wrote: »

All numbers now are estimates, 160 a week sounds more like the citizens money that was suggested. Still would you stop working with that?

The idea is that you work rather than not work. No I wouldn't stop working for that. I wouldn't survive on it. But it would mean I could be more flexible in how much I did work

Arthur Daley · 07-04-2018 9:38pm

KyussB wrote: »

Keynes said we'd only be working 15 hour weeks by now. The most well respected economist of his time.

Exactly. I think if 'we', (and by that I mean a large percentage of the working and middle classes) were in charge of our own destiny, many of us would be using the technology advances to work 15/20/25 hour weeks.

Instead what do we have? especially in Anglo American work environments, people often more stressed than ever, longer hours often the norm built into jobs, and now the threat of AI/Robots severely curtailing job security.

You could choose to work a 70 hour week. Go right ahead, I may choose 30 hours, someone else may choose 15. Keynes was correct that he would have expected us to be working 15 hours a week with such technological advances since his day, but we aren't, for some reason.

I suspect it's because Economics is not being driven for the 'common good' of the majority of working and middle class people. Which also crosses over to why faith in political systems have collapsed.

Owryan · 07-04-2018 9:44pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

More regulation and government interference creates bloating. A UBI will be the greatest piece of government inference of all time. Can you imagime the bureaucracies that will build up around it?

In theory there should be less bureaurcacy. The myriad of different welfare payments will be reduced to a handful. Having to means test people wont be an issue. Revenue already apply credits so the ubi would be no different.

KyussB · 07-04-2018 9:49pm

Harika wrote: »

Keynes predicted something that didn't happen, still others predicted something else. What is the point?
The AI is at the stage of a single super intelligence, read this article to see the further development expected. https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html
We are at the beginning still deep blue and Watson have shown how far they have gotten.
And what has the carbon emissions causing climate change to do with the ubi, if that counts I add meatless sausages to the argument.

The AI hype is the same as the cryptocurrency hype - there are some worthwhile advancements in technology - but 90% of it is just fluffing stock prices by putting 'crypto' or 'AI' in the company description.

We don't even have an understanding of the human brain yet - we still debate airy concepts such as consciousness in philosophical terms, rather than technical - all AI predictions are making things up as they go along, and engaging in very vague forms of speculation.

The article you link pretty much explains that nobody has any idea how to advance AI from performing simple iterative data processing - into having actual higher level intelligence and decision making.

People don't even know how to debug the AI's they've already trained - once they train a neural network, they have no idea how it works - it's just a black box.

suicide_circus · 07-04-2018 9:51pm

Owryan wrote: »

In theory there should be less bureaurcacy. The myriad of different welfare payments will be reduced to a handful. Having to means test people wont be an issue. Revenue already apply credits so the ubi would be no different.

In theory. I can't think of any bureaucracies that have ever got smaller. A brave new world indeed.

doolox · 07-04-2018 10:10pm

People are probably working 15 hour weeks in that a lot of modern work is meetings about meetings, pointless reports and paperwork, form filling, government red tape and auditing and there is very little real work being done.
If you add in the time wasted in travelling and stuck in traffic jams compared to years ago then you see that 15 hours of real work is probably not far off the mark.

I have observed that in the caring profession most of the time is spent waiting for the clients to do something stupid, wander off, get into trouble, spill something, fall etc. Most of the carers time is spent waiting for the event to happen so they can react to it. A part of their working day is spent correcting the situations that arise, feeding, cleaning and assisting the clients in living their lives. A lot of modern jobs are like that now, most of the time waiting and a part of the time doing your work.Retail is like that except at the weekends when everybody shops or after work when it is busy. Its a waiting game at 10am mondays.

07-04-2018 11:07pm

doolox wrote: »

People are probably working 15 hour weeks in that a lot of modern work is meetings about meetings, pointless reports and paperwork, form filling, government red tape and auditing and there is very little real work being done.
If you add in the time wasted in travelling and stuck in traffic jams compared to years ago then you see that 15 hours of real work is probably not far off the mark.

I have observed that in the caring profession most of the time is spent waiting for the clients to do something stupid, wander off, get into trouble, spill something, fall etc. Most of the carers time is spent waiting for the event to happen so they can react to it. A part of their working day is spent correcting the situations that arise, feeding, cleaning and assisting the clients in living their lives. A lot of modern jobs are like that now, most of the time waiting and a part of the time doing your work.Retail is like that except at the weekends when everybody shops or after work when it is busy. Its a waiting game at 10am mondays.

To be honest, outside of the production line type of jobs, most work is like that.
Just think about the railways in the Victorian times (well up until quite recently) if you were a level crossing keeper on a rural line, you wait for a bell to let you know the train had left the station, then you have to wait until you guess that it is less than 3 minutes away and you close the gates then you pull the signal to say the line is clear then press the bell again to let the signal box know you have the train, the train passes you ring the bell to the next signal box then open the gates and return to the garden for another hour or two.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-04-2018 10:05pm

KyussB wrote:

People don't even know how to debug the AI's they've already trained - once they train a neural network, they have no idea how it works - it's just a black box.

That's no different than saying that we don't know how to cure cancer or understand how prevent it in humans, or even debug and fix human bugs such as criminal behaviour.

KyussB wrote:

The AI hype is the same as the cryptocurrency hype - there are some worthwhile advancements in technology - but 90% of it is just fluffing stock prices by putting 'crypto' or 'AI' in the company description.

There's no doubt that there is an element of fluff around AI or Crypto when it comes to stock prices.

However I've worked in IT for a few decades and I follow the actual tech closely and I'm astonished at the rate of development and progress compared to what I've been working on all this time.

Compute power is still limiting what can be done though.

KyussB · 08-04-2018 10:19pm

It's very different to saying both those things, because both of those other things have absolutely bugger all to do with what you quoted there - what I said in the quoted sentence was a very specific technical problem, with those other things having no likeness.

I'm a programmer with about a couple decades experience outside and inside the industry myself - and have a close eye on that kind of thing, as it's applicable to my area of work (game development) - the advancements are nice, but nowhere remotely near the hype - it's far from a case of throwing more computing power at the problem, we need a quantum leap in our understanding of human/animal minds, and biological neural networks in general (which function quite differently, even if analogously, to the ones in use for todays AI's), before we'll get anywhere.

wakka12 · 08-04-2018 11:27pm

Why do we even want to create AI that could be comparable to human intelligence anyway? It just seems like an ethical disaster waiting to happen

I can understand creating AI that can perform manual labour and more complex physical labour tasks but apart from that, whats the point

4068ac1elhodqr · 08-04-2018 11:50pm

It's likely the later, higher-end 'super-conscious' final stage of (true) AI won't just be about sheer processing power,
but will evolve around 'semi-organic' quantum neural networks. It can also go the other way i.e. trans-humanism.

Why do it? Evolution (for better or worse).

KyussB · 09-04-2018 1:03am

In the meantime lets talk about the actual real world - not some mythical AI-dominated future economy.

People are proposing the basic income for today - not for the mythical future. It's to be judged on its faults in todays economy. The better alternatives (jobs programs aimed at permanent Full Employment), that make far more sense than the UBI, are also focused on todays economy.

4068ac1elhodqr · 09-04-2018 1:24am

2018 marks stage 1, 2030 stg 2, and the super-conscious stg3 for 2050 and thereafter.

UBI, basic living stipend (or similar) trials will have to be run very shortly in various scenarios by every country in preparation.
The bot takeover won't be an overnight thing, but gradual and relentless.

Once the market decides a bot controlled Telsa electric truck is more cost-efficient,
you can see 1.8m truck drivers (quickly) retired, just in the US alone.

FT-employment will be in most cases, replaced by the part-time 'gig-economy'.

Harika · 09-04-2018 8:04am

KyussB wrote: »

People are proposing the basic income for today - not for the mythical future. It's to be judged on its faults in todays economy. The better alternatives (jobs programs aimed at permanent Full Employment), that make far more sense than the UBI, are also focused on todays economy.

Some pages before you were worried about inflation, this is far more likely to create inflation.

Harika · 09-04-2018 8:44am

wakka12 wrote: »

Why do we even want to create AI that could be comparable to human intelligence anyway? It just seems like an ethical disaster waiting to happen

I can understand creating AI that can perform manual labour and more complex physical labour tasks but apart from that, whats the point

Indeed, that is anything something that happens constantly, like nowadays no person routs the phone calls between two callers manual.
The main problem will be individual tasks where an AI replaces a human, like self driving cars, that are actually not too far away. This list is long and surprising and so far the only answer is to bring people into bull**** jobs that are not actually needed or jobs get created to deal with other jobs that are created to deal with the other job.
At one hand, the UBI is a very capitalistic tool, as it will move people to where the desire is, instead of the money alone. So if companies want to keep those bull**** jobs, they have to pay them better. If they are useless, they will disappear. And contrary to the system now where we have to carry the unemployment, the UBI will catch those people and not take them their base of living.

KyussB · 09-04-2018 8:52am

Liberty Proud Rank wrote: »

2018 marks stage 1, 2030 stg 2, and the super-conscious stg3 for 2050 and thereafter.

UBI, basic living stipend (or similar) trials will have to be run very shortly in various scenarios by every country in preparation.
The bot takeover won't be an overnight thing, but gradual and relentless.

Once the market decides a bot controlled Telsa electric truck is more cost-efficient,
you can see 1.8m truck drivers (quickly) retired, just in the US alone.

FT-employment will be in most cases, replaced by the part-time 'gig-economy'.

Ya and I'll have angels flying out my arsehole by 2030.

KyussB · 09-04-2018 8:55am

Harika wrote: »

Some pages before you were worried about inflation, this is far more likely to create inflation.

The UBI would give people money without any extra production - likely with less production - i.e. more money, same or less rate of GDP growth = likely inflation.

A jobs program gives people money, in order to increase current production = less likely to cause inflation.

Inflation from money growth, is all about the rate of growth of money vs the rate of growth of GDP - if you match the rate of money growth, to GDP, that avoids excessive inflation.

Harika · 09-04-2018 9:37am

KyussB wrote: »

The UBI would give people money without any extra production - likely with less production - i.e. more money, same or less rate of GDP growth = likely inflation.

If the fairy changes the system tomorrow, how do you think your paycheck would look like with 1000 Euro UBI?

Kirby · 09-04-2018 10:03am

KyussB wrote: »

The AI hype is the same as the cryptocurrency hype - there are some worthwhile advancements in technology - but 90% of it is just fluffing stock prices by putting 'crypto' or 'AI' in the company description.

We don't even have an understanding of the human brain yet - we still debate airy concepts such as consciousness in philosophical terms, rather than technical - all AI predictions are making things up as they go along, and engaging in very vague forms of speculation.

The article you link pretty much explains that nobody has any idea how to advance AI from performing simple iterative data processing - into having actual higher level intelligence and decision making.

People don't even know how to debug the AI's they've already trained - once they train a neural network, they have no idea how it works - it's just a black box.

You are dealing in hypotheticals. Forget about AI and just look at advances in automation.

Walk into a car factory and see a machine construct a car 100 times quicker than 100 people could.

Walk into a postal depot and watch a machine sort mail 1,000 times faster than a trained sorter.

Leaving aside how complex and advanced AI can become, automation is here and its here to stay. The day of a Universal basic income being required is a when......not an if. It's going to happen whether we get self driving cars or not. There simply won't be enough production jobs to go around.

suicide_circus · 09-04-2018 10:07am

^^^^ agreed. How will it be financed? How will it work when some countries have it and others don't?

Ush1 · 09-04-2018 10:10am

Kirby wrote: »

You are dealing in hypotheticals. Forget about AI and just look at advances in automation.

Walk into a car factory and see a machine construct a car 100 times quicker than 100 people could.

Walk into a postal depot and watch a machine sort mail 1,000 times faster than a trained sorter.

Leaving aside how complex and advanced AI can become, automation is here and its here to stay. The day of a Universal basic income being required is a when......not an if. It's going to happen whether we get self driving cars or not. There simply won't be enough production jobs to go around.

Yes but the assumption there is that other jobs won't be created for people.

I believe it was forecast in the 70s that by the year 2000 we would be working 2 day weeks with loads of leisure time, the inverse happened, people now work more hours than ever before.

BrokenArrows · 09-04-2018 10:18am

SwiftDemand.com is a Universal Basic Income currency. They give 100 coins per day.

They just completed a token sale where the final price was .0038 $

So that 100 coins is 38c. Nothing crazy but it's free and you can buy stuff with it from the store.

munchkin_utd · 09-04-2018 10:24am

folks, I dont get it.

In finland you get €560 for nothing.
In Ireland you get €800 odd per month from the dole for doing shag all, plus housing and heating, medical card and god knows what else , for an unlimited period of time, until you hit retirement age when you get even better benefits.

How is Finland the paradise and not Ireland ?

(btw, in UK and Germany and most other countries including scandanavia, the long term dole is way lower than Ireland, the paradise on earth for folks doing nothing)

Kirby · 09-04-2018 10:33am

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes but the assumption there is that other jobs won't be created for people.

If depends on what you define as a job.

Somebody who's chosen vocation is say....painting portraits of people would consider what they do a job. An artist. Not just that but poets, musicians, writers, etc. We will always need art. But as many of the people in these fields will tell you, they don't make enough money to live off.

Not everyone is smart enough to become a doctor, lawyer, etc. Most of the population work minimum wage or close to it. Looking at the mean wage would indicate that. And these sort of jobs will diminish slowly as automation increases.

We wont need millions of farmers around the world toiling in fields and farms. It will be one guy maintaining the machine that does it. We wont need millions of truck drivers or warehouse workers. The 20 people behind the counter you see at your local McDonalds will be 2 people.

So the idea that more jobs will be created is true. They just wont be as well paying and there wont be enough of them. They will need to be suplemented.

4068ac1elhodqr · 09-04-2018 1:29pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

folks, I dont get it.

In finland you get €560 for nothing.
In Ireland you get €800 odd per month from the dole for doing shag all, plus housing and heating, medical card and god knows what else , for an unlimited period of time, until you hit retirement age when you get even better benefits.

How is Finland the paradise and not Ireland ?

Because as well as this 560pm (or whatever it is) you can 'also' work as much or little on top of that, without altering or loosing the initial 560. So 1600net for a few part-time, near-zero tax gigs, in the coming 'gig economy'.

The way to get around inflation could be to offer basic essential services (at the most basic of plans available) for free e.g. phone, internet, housing, transport, foodbanks etc. That way it could encourage saving, investment and thus eventually the aim of 'dynamic innovative enterprise' rather than just shoe shopping.

Arthur Daley · 09-04-2018 1:45pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

^^^^ agreed. How will it be financed? How will it work when some countries have it and others don't?

The great fun... will start when the debt needs to be paid. If we have the status quo, a collapse in jobs, will lead to a collapse in the tax base, and the US, UK and Ireland have public debt up to their eyeballs as it is. Never been higher.

Watch how the EU gets on with trying to tax or dismantle Google, Amazon etc. This will show us where the power is sitting and how Public Government can have any hope of financing these experiments.

Universal basic income trial in Finland

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