Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

Nermal · 25-10-2018 5:07pm

dionsiseire wrote: »

We banned Uber because it would interfere with the whole market of taxi drivers and undermine the license plate system.

And yet where Uber is allowed, taxis are plentiful and cheap. I’m sure there’s a lesson about regulation in there somewhere...

Bob24 · 25-10-2018 5:13pm

Nermal wrote: »

And yet where Uber is allowed, taxis are plentiful and cheap. I’m sure there’s a lesson about regulation in there somewhere...

Dublin taxis are actually not especially expensive.

Paris has Uber and taxis there are much more expensive than here. They also have striking Uber drivers.

There might be a lesson about not generalising.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 25-10-2018 5:23pm

Graham wrote: »

"owners will have to tell the local authority that they intend to avail of an exemption allowing them to 'homeshare'"

Hold the letting platforms responsible for checking.

In a market where capital appreciation has slowed to a crawl, you would have to be a fairly daft investor to think this was a good idea while monthly costs/insurance issues stack up.

"Will have to" ! needs to be enforced by an already stretched Councils .Most Landlords that are not resident in this country will have no appetite to seek exemption as no fines will he enforceable to them.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 25-10-2018 5:25pm

Amirani wrote: »

We should absolutely not be giving criminal convictions for civil matters.

Depends on how you perceive Civil Matter or categorise it. If I stayed in hotel and didn't pay at the end would it then be Civil.

Graham · 25-10-2018 5:33pm

Marie Narrow Custodian wrote: »

"Will have to" ! needs to be enforced by an already stretched Councils .Most Landlords that are not resident in this country will have no appetite to seek exemption as no fines will he enforceable to them.

From the announcement.

Additional resources will be provided within Dublin City Council’s Planning Section to oversee the compilation of registers and to monitor enforcement. People found to not be in compliance with these changes will risk criminal conviction under forthcoming legislation.

spurious · 25-10-2018 5:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

Possibly tangential to this thread, so apologies, but are there reasons why someone would chose this route over the Rent A Room scheme? Or does using AirBNB for you spare room come under the RAR?

We went with AirBnB rather than rent a room because
(a) if we had a not so nice guest they would be gone within a week,
(b) we could block off days we are away ourselves and know we didn't have to worry about getting bookings at that time,
(c) we used to be Couchsurfing hosts, which was like AirBnB but no money changing hands, so we liked the idea of offering a low cost alternative to people
(d) we like meeting new people.

There are no tax breaks for it. We declare all our AirBnB income as non-PAYE income and Revenue take it from there. We are never going to become millionaires on it, but that was never our intention.

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 25-10-2018 5:50pm

Graham wrote: »

From the announcement.

So its only Dublin City Council supposingly getting these powers that will cost how much money and energy when they come transfer it to building social units which under the Constitution are suppose to provide social housing.

Wouldn't it also be discriminatory by the state to impose these laws just in Dublin, signalling out Dublin.

Also airbnb stretches Dublin 1-8 by mainly 1-4 ,most of these properties would not be bound by the 4 per cent rpz as most would be out of this percentage by 2 years thus granting them higher than normal market value rent .....this would see
rents rising much higher than ever before.

Graham · 25-10-2018 5:53pm

Marie Narrow Custodian wrote: »

So its only Dublin City Council supposingly getting these powers

No

DCC are getting additional resources, not powers.

With 3100 - 3800 entire properties in Dublin listed on some of the larger booking platforms, it does sound like a sensible place to start concentrating the efforts.

robp · 25-10-2018 5:56pm

Thestones wrote: »

robp wrote: »

Private home owners have no social responsibly to house people. They just don't.

No they don't however Airbnb doesn't just impact renters looking for a place to live it affects anyone living next door to an Airbnb property. No one wants to live next door to a house or apartment that has different people every week making noise, having parties or whatever. I feel sorry for people living in apartment blocks that have this issue. It's a social responsibility to get these regulations in place. For those that say 'my home, I'll do what I like' well sorry but regulations are put in place for good reason and unless you live in a detached house with its own land you can't really just do what you want without consequences, if your property is an apartment complex or housing estate then regulations need to be there to protect everyone.

Where is there evidence that AirBnB users are rowdy?

l5auim2pjnt8qx · 25-10-2018 6:05pm

Graham wrote: »

No

DCC are getting additional resources, not powers.

With 3100 - 3800 entire properties in Dublin listed on some of the larger booking platforms, it does sound like a sensible place to start concentrating the efforts.

Resources assumingly means more bodies and money it will be meaningless without
powers to back it up. I don't have a problem with out stretched properties in a southward airbnb direction coming back onstream but this does nothing to house the homeless as these properties will be on the higher end of the scale.

Wrong type of Government interference obviously shaking by Threshold and Political scoring from other parties.

handlemaster · 25-10-2018 6:15pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

If it wasnt written I wouldnt believe there are people out there with this attitude. How many jobs are support by tourism in ireland ?

which confirms my point that there are too many tourists.
try getting a hotel in Dublin any weekend and you'll see.

maybe it's time we stopped trying to be a leprechaun theme park for them.

O lord. There's no point... LOl

Bob24 · 25-10-2018 6:34pm

Marie Narrow Custodian wrote: »

Resources assumingly means more bodies and money it will be meaningless without
powers to back it up. I don't have a problem with out stretched properties in a southward airbnb direction coming back onstream but this does nothing to house the homeless as these properties will be on the higher end of the scale.

Wrong type of Government interference obviously shaking by Threshold and Political scoring from other parties.

To be honest, the simple fact of forcing people to register with a public authority, forcing the main short-term rental platforms to collect that registration number for all their ads and sharing them with the authority, and cross-referencing those datasets would provide any good initial level of enforcement for a very minimal cost.

This is not reinventing the wheel either as many other cities/countries have such system in place already (meaning that most likely Airbnb’s IT systems already support this, and they would just have to flick the switch for Ireland).

25-10-2018 7:41pm

JPFabo wrote: »

Its a ban on landlords.....no landlord is going to be issued with a short term letting licence, so its a ban, no two ways about it. The government can spin it how they want.

I’m delighted. Residential developments should be for housing people, not to run a sideline business providing accommodation for tourists and short term visitors.

If that’s your gig, buy a B&B or invest in a hotel.

enricoh · 25-10-2018 9:14pm

handlemaster wrote: »

O lord. There's no point... LOl

Too many tourists? Well this new law should help get rid of some of them to other countries. Tax on hotels, cafes etc went up 4.5% in the budget, that should help get rid of more.
Who needs tourists and the money they spend anyway!!
Sod the tourist industry, let's concentrate on beefing up the homeless industry!

awec · 25-10-2018 10:24pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think it is Air BnB going back to basics. You know.... host visitors in your own home for an agreed fee.

Not someone with twenty apartments or more letting them out constantly in high demand areas under ABB.

Anyway, the ordinary Joe or Josie who is letting out a room or rooms in their house say every weekend or when there is a big gig on will get a reasonable price per night. They are not being restricted. Halve that though and add on USC and PRSI for the bottom line.

They can also let their entire property out in blocks of 14 days to a max of 90 days per annum.

Apart from the tax implications mentioned above, sounds like a good deal within the original spirit of ABB.

RAR is a better bet taxwise, but ABB suits others who have a spare room too.

Yea pretty much this.

The only people this affects are the chancer landlords who've been flouting it for years now. Meh. They've had it good for quite a while, they must have known it would come to an end as the arse is being ripped out of it now.

Bob24 · 25-10-2018 10:53pm

awec wrote: »

Yea pretty much this.

The only people this affects are the chancer landlords who've been flouting it for years now. Meh. They've had it good for quite a while, they must have known it would come to an end as the arse is being ripped out of it now.

I would also add that I remember several occurrences whereby when Airbnb was touted here as long term option for landlords, several posters (including myself) warned that it shouldn’t be seen as sustainable as amongst other things it was at odds with planing permissions and would likely be shut down eventually.

So it’s not like it is a big surprise and no one saw it coming, and those who are getting caught up should only blame themselves.

shenanagans · 25-10-2018 11:02pm

Everyone that's used Airbnb in recent years is guilty of fuelling its success here. I'm not a landlord. I've used airbnb, always had a great experience. It's a cheap way to travel. Let's be honest about it.

For young people it's your best friend and worst enemy. If you want a cheap weekend.... Airbnb. But it's contributed to housing shortage etc.

Anyway it was good while it lasted. But it wasn't just tourists using it. Irish were using it too.... in their thousands. So let's not be hypocritical about it. We all love a cheap trip.

I can see why apartments in communal buildings should get permission from management to host on airbnb..... But if its your private house, I'm inclined to say its you own business what you do with your own private residence. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.

Bluefoam · 25-10-2018 11:16pm

I have to laugh at the amount of commercial landlords presenting themselves as 'home owners'. There is a big difference between home owner, house owner and even hotel operator.

Debtocracy · 25-10-2018 11:50pm

I like how when these regulations come out, landlords are all “Please think of the poor tenants/tourists”. My other favourite is the sulking, “well I might as well sell up now”, as if their house will disappear into a black hole.

Can they not just admit they’re pissed because they want to extract the most money as possible, in the most passive way possible.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 12:40am

shenanagans wrote: »

Everyone that's used Airbnb in recent years is guilty of fuelling its success here. I'm not a landlord. I've used airbnb, always had a great experience. It's a cheap way to travel. Let's be honest about it.

For young people it's your best friend and worst enemy. If you want a cheap weekend.... Airbnb. But it's contributed to housing shortage etc.

Anyway it was good while it lasted. But it wasn't just tourists using it. Irish were using it too.... in their thousands. So let's not be hypocritical about it. We all love a cheap trip.

I can see why apartments in communal buildings should get permission from management to host on airbnb..... But if its your private house, I'm inclined to say its you own business what you do with your own private residence. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.

i agree with you. private houses shouldn't be a nuisance to anybody, but blocks of flats are an entirely different matter.

handlemaster · 26-10-2018 7:57am

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/the-real-problem-is-that-the-government-hasnt-built-homes-airbnb-landlord-doesnt-believe-clampdown-will-solve-crisis-37460378.html

handlemaster · 26-10-2018 7:58am

enricoh wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

O lord. There's no point... LOl

Too many tourists? Well this new law should help get rid of some of them to other countries. Tax on hotels, cafes etc went up 4.5% in the budget, that should help get rid of more.
Who needs tourists and the money they spend anyway!!
Sod the tourist industry, let's concentrate on beefing up the homeless industry!

I think.that comment.was for the poster who.is anti tourists.

Bluefoam · 26-10-2018 10:17am

He just sounds upset and indignant.

Bluefoam · 26-10-2018 10:18am

handlemaster wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/the-real-problem-is-that-the-government-hasnt-built-homes-airbnb-landlord-doesnt-believe-clampdown-will-solve-crisis-37460378.html

He sounds upset because he invested in 20 properties, is probably ignoring the planning laws and now his 'enterprise' is under threat... His arguement doesn't really stand up.

awec · 26-10-2018 12:56pm

handlemaster wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/the-real-problem-is-that-the-government-hasnt-built-homes-airbnb-landlord-doesnt-believe-clampdown-will-solve-crisis-37460378.html

:pac:

That guy is either a bit thick or being deliberately obtuse. It does not take a genius to figure out the problems with private dwellings being used as short term lettings, how this is in breach of planning, and the negative effects this has on the housing market.

The faux concern for Ireland's tourists is cute too. We've heard that one a few times.

Just missing something about communists, or him not being allowed to do whatever he likes with his property, or he'll just leave them all sitting empty otherwise and we'll have a full house on the bullshit excuses bingo.

There's really nothing extreme about this. Existing rules are just going to be properly enforced. Chancers have had their day in the sun.

Nermal · 26-10-2018 1:37pm

awec wrote: »

how this is in breach of planning...

There's really nothing extreme about this. Existing rules are just going to be properly enforced.

We know it's in breach of planning. So what? Planning rules are not infallible. In this case, they are not proportionate or justifiable.

This is a transparent attempt to be seen to be 'doing something' about a lack of building activity. It's also a sop to hotels.

I hope they're completely ignored, in Dublin and in every other city they're introduced.

aloooof · 26-10-2018 1:52pm

Nermal wrote: »

We know it's in breach of planning. So what? Planning rules are not infallible. In this case, they are not proportionate or justifiable.

How is it not proportionate or justifiable to expect residential properties to be used for residential purposes?

Nermal wrote: »

This is a transparent attempt to be seen to be 'doing something' about a lack of building activity. It's also a sop to hotels.

I hope they're completely ignored, in Dublin and in every other city they're introduced.

The lack of building is an issue. But so is the amount of residential properties being used for short-term lets. They're not mutually exclusive. The government should be tackling both. It's a positive that they've started tackling one.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 2:16pm

we definitely need to focus more on housing our own people.

what's the heck is wrong with this country?

the locals are housed in hotels and the tourists are occupying our houses!

awec · 26-10-2018 2:42pm

Nermal wrote: »

We know it's in breach of planning. So what? Planning rules are not infallible. In this case, they are not proportionate or justifiable.

This is a transparent attempt to be seen to be 'doing something' about a lack of building activity. It's also a sop to hotels.

I hope they're completely ignored, in Dublin and in every other city they're introduced.

They are easily both of these things.

I don't know where this notion that building more houses is the sole solution to Ireland's housing problem. That is part of the solution, as is ensuring that housing stock is used appropriately. No point building loads more houses if they'll end up bought by investors and stuck on AirBnB or whatever.

The landlords affected here haven't got a leg to stand on and they know it. Hence why they are bleating on about tourists, cleaners losing their jobs and other nonsense.

Assetbacked · 26-10-2018 3:24pm

Marie Narrow Custodian wrote: »

Depends on how you perceive Civil Matter or categorise it. If I stayed in hotel and didn't pay at the end would it then be Civil.

Absolutely a terrible idea. There are perfectly good means to enforce judgment against an individual currently through the courts. In addition, there definitely should be an easier process to remove tenants for non-payment of rent. These two combined should alleviate the problems around tenants who don't pay rent.

These Airbnb measures have resulted in, yet again, people targeting the wrong people with their frustration at the current crisis. For me, the key cause of the housing crisis was the actions of NAMA. Swathes of land were sold throughout Dublin city and were then only utilised to build office space. So few apartments have been built throughout Dublin, especially in GCD and the north docks, which should have been primed for apartments blocks. Yet, there were no stipulatios for using the land for residential purposes when NAMA sold it off to large institutional investors and therefore they just went off building office space. The few apartments that are built are more likely to be corporate lets in the prime Dublin city areas. This is absolutely the fault of the government and previous government.

Fian · 26-10-2018 3:49pm

Marie Narrow Custodian wrote: »

Depends on how you perceive Civil Matter or categorise it. If I stayed in hotel and didn't pay at the end would it then be Civil.

If you never intended to pay for your hotel when you checked in that would be criminal (if it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt!)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/7/enacted/en/html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/6/enacted/en/html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/8/enacted/en/html

If you checked into a hotel intending to pay but then found you were unable to pay when it came time to check out, and told teh reception so but said i will pay you when I can, that would be civil. In contrast if you fill a car in a petrol station and intentionally drive off without paying or if you dine and dash, that could be criminal under the last one above.

Similarly if you enter a lease but don't intend at the time to pay the rent that would (already) be a criminal matter (good luck proving it in any circumstances short of maybe a recording of the accused saying to someone before he entered the lease that he had no intention of paying rent)

However if you run into money trouble and can no longer afford to pay the rent when it falls due that is civil.

Criminal convictions for simple non payment of rent is a victorian concept similar to debtors prisons. Sometimes people can't afford to repay their debts.

Gerinspain · 26-10-2018 3:52pm

Bob24 wrote: »

To be honest, the simple fact of forcing people to register with a public authority, forcing the main short-term rental platforms to collect that registration number for all their ads and sharing them with the authority, and cross-referencing those datasets would provide any good initial level of enforcement for a very minimal cost.

This is not reinventing the wheel either as many other cities/countries have such system in place already (meaning that most likely Airbnb’s IT systems already support this, and they would just have to flick the switch for Ireland).

This is done in Spain. I have a friend who was renting out a chalet and she had to provide all the required licences to Air bnb before being accepted as a host.

handlemaster · 26-10-2018 4:22pm

Just for the anti tourist posters. Over 286000 people employed in tourism in ireland. We are at the higher cost end for tourist destinations . If people doing air b nb are keeping hotel and B&B prices in check then good. When the next financial crisies comes we will be very glad for this sector. But let's not think this move by the government is going to do anything for the current housing situation its just a deflection from the cause. .. lack of building in the correct areas.

https://www.tourismireland.com/Research/Overseas-Tourism-and-Tourism-Ireland-Key-Facts

Graham · 26-10-2018 4:28pm

"Give up your homes to support a tourist" isn't a particularly compelling campaign to be honest.

handlemaster · 26-10-2018 4:54pm

Graham wrote: »

"Give up your homes to support a tourist" isn't a particularly compelling campaign to be honest.

Whos property are you talking about ? Do what you want with your own.

handlemaster · 26-10-2018 4:56pm

Graham wrote: »

"Give up your homes to support a tourist" isn't a particularly compelling campaign to be honest.

Whos property are you talking about ? Do what you want with your own.

Graham · 26-10-2018 4:56pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Whos property are you talking about ? Do what you want with your own.

Subject to planning permission

Seriously though, you're going to have a hard time convincing much of the population that housing should be turned into tourist accommodation for the benefit of the tourist industry.

26-10-2018 5:02pm

Graham wrote: »

Subject to planning permission

Seriously though, you're going to have a hard time convincing much of the population that housing should be turned into tourist accommodation for the benefit of the tourist industry.

Well, if all those AirBnB whole properties were returned for private use, the tourists could stay in hotels and BnBs. Or even in people’s spare bedrooms.

circular flexing · 26-10-2018 5:09pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Just for the anti tourist posters. Over 286000 people employed in tourism in ireland. We are at the higher cost end for tourist destinations . If people doing air b nb are keeping hotel and B&B prices in check then good. When the next financial crisies comes we will be very glad for this sector. But let's not think this move by the government is going to do anything for the current housing situation its just a deflection from the cause. .. lack of building in the correct areas.

https://www.tourismireland.com/Research/Overseas-Tourism-and-Tourism-Ireland-Key-Facts

No point having all these tourists if the people working in the tourism industry can't find affordable places to live.....because all the houses are being rented to tourists.

mikemac2 · 26-10-2018 5:16pm

circular flexing wrote: »

No point having all these tourists if the people working in the tourism industry can't find affordable places to live.....because all the houses are being rented to tourists.

Dingle was covered by a roving radio reporter. Publicans and restaurants complaining they cannot get staff while they are renting the attached properties and rooms upstairs on air bnb. Locals can’t pay those prices, not on a lowly hospitality wage

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 5:25pm

Graham wrote: »

Subject to planning permission

Seriously though, you're going to have a hard time convincing much of the population that housing should be turned into tourist accommodation for the benefit of the tourist industry.

totally agree.
it's not that people are anti-tourist but people are rightly more concerned about our homeless citizens.

is that such an awful thing? if so, then shoot me.

Bob24 · 26-10-2018 6:28pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Whos property are you talking about ? Do what you want with your own.

The poster said homes though and not properties, which is not exactly the same thing.

The point being that it would be hard to convince voters that at a time where we have a housing crisis it makes sense for residential units to be used as commercial short term letting units (in contradiction with planning permission). And someone wouldn’t have to be “anti tourist” to see a problem with that logic.

Edgware · 26-10-2018 8:01pm

I wouldnt be too woried about our local authorities ability to regulate. The gob****es cant organise emptying the street litter bins more than twice a year

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 9:05pm

Bob24 wrote: »

The poster said homes though and not properties, which is not exactly the same thing.

The point being that it would be hard to convince voters that at a time where we have a housing crisis it makes sense for residential units to be used as commercial short term letting units (in contradiction with planning permission). And someone wouldn’t have to be “anti tourist” to see a problem with that logic.

totally agree Bob.

if these tourists love ireland so much, let them stay in a frickin hotel.
Barcelona has led the way in this, and i'm delighted we have at last started to take a leaf from their book.
Irish people (and especially families with kids) MUST be given priority!
i make no apology for that.

L1011 · 26-10-2018 9:07pm

Edgware wrote: »

I wouldnt be too woried about our local authorities ability to regulate. The gob****es cant organise emptying the street litter bins more than twice a year

I live in a generally ignored area of an incompetent council and the litter bins are emptied 6 mornings a week. I suspect if one isn't it has simply been forgotten off the collection route and needs to be pointed out.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 9:25pm

i really hope these new measures are properly enforced. LLs who breach the new legislation should face the full rigors of the law, and be made an example of.

4ensic15 · 26-10-2018 9:28pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i really hope these new measures are properly enforced. LLs who breach the new legislation should face the full rigors of the law, and be made an example of.

Like what, be tarred and feathered?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 26-10-2018 9:31pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Like what, be tarred and feathered?

no of course not. i'm not sure what type of system of justice you are in favour of,
but there must be proper penalties in place including imprisonment for those LLs who ignore or flout the law.

4ensic15 · 26-10-2018 9:58pm

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

no of course not. i'm not sure what type of system of justice you are in favour of,
but there must be proper penalties in place including imprisonment for those LLs who ignore or flout the law.

Great idea, put hard-working landlords in jail and let drug dealers and thieves and burglars maraude about.

Graham · 26-10-2018 10:01pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Great idea, put hard-working landlords in jail and let drug dealers and thieves and burglars maraude about.

I read the announcement, neither of those ideas were part of it.

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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