GRO records

ifconfig · 07-08-2010 8:08pm #1

I have a copy of Grenham's Trace your Ancestors (latest edition).

I've already got a lot of information on my own family history using the IHFH (or rootsireland.ie) Birth/Marriage/Death indices.

I am now hunting for info for another person who shares my surname who is interested in this research. We are not certain of cousin relationship but at this point we want to see if we can establish the name of this person's great grandfather.

We have the name of his grandfather and age on the 1911 census.
Oddly he isn't on the 1901 census but may have been on military service at that time.
I've tried the parish closest to where he was listed as living in Dublin in 1911 to see if I could get his marriage cert with no luck.
To be honest his birth records are going to be much more useful to us as they will reveal the first name of his father which is the main detail we are now after.

To cut this long story short... I think my next port of call is to go to the GRO to look up the birth index. Using his census stated age on the 1911 census he would appear to have been born around 1879. He states his birthplace as Dublin city but there is also a chance that he might have been born in Louth (or Meath) as we know pretty confidently that his ancestors lived there up until the 1830/1840s.

Two questions.
1. I live closer to Roscommon than Dublin. Is there a walk in research facility in the HQ of the GRO in Roscommon or are they not open to public in that sense ?
2. If it is Dublin I need to go am I right in presuming that there is a very good chance (despite our failed attempts to find him on Parish records) that he will have an entry on the birth indices given his date of birth seems to fall into the range of dates where it was compulsory for birth/death/marriages to be registered ?
(I am , of course, assuming here that he was born in the 26 counties and not in Ulster or abroad.. which I think is still a fairly safe assumption)

One other thing. The surname is relatively infrequent, not ultra-rare but I've read that things are trickier with indexes if the surname is frequent because of the higher probability of people with same firstname/surname appearing and conflation of identity which can only be resolved by calling up the actual record, etc.

Best wishes,

IFC.

shanew · 07-08-2010 9:57pm

You can search the Irish BMD index online on the familsearch website. This includes the same details as the GRO index books, and you could check for any likely index matches, before you visit the GRO. See : http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347 Even though all births were supposed to be registered, some were missed, even up to the early 1900s.

I'm not sure if there is a research room in GRO Roscommon, it may be for post orders only. Check their website or maybe phone them - see http://www.groireland.ie/research.htm

Did you try for his civil marriage cert from the GRO ? Father's name and occupation would be very useful to help confirm any birth certs you locate. 1911 census includes number of years married which will help locate the correct marriage. If you want to post some details I can help to find the refs for you.

Given the date it might be worth checking for an extracted birth record on familysearch also - you can search these at this link : http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1584963
This collection include many details of births extracted from civil records, and includes useful details that are not included in the BMD index such as both parents names etc. The collection includes records from 1864 to about 1881, but not all areas are covered.

Do you have reason to doubt his place of birth on the 1911 census ?

Shane

pinkypinky · 07-08-2010 11:47pm

Afaik, there's no research facility at the GRO in Roscommon. They are not open to the public. You can postal order from them so if you find your likely matches as Shane suggested, you can just fax your details to them and they'll post them to you.

ifconfig · 08-08-2010 12:05am

Many thanks for the info and pointers, ShaneW.
They are proving useful.
Thanks also to pinkypinky , re , the Roscommon GRO facility.

Just back to the issue as to whether I didn't trust the census birth location in the 1911 location.
The person in question has a name unique in the country in the 1911 census for the given age at 1911 (36yrs of age). This is the case allowing for a fairly wide berth around that age too. His stated place of birth on the 1911 Census is City of Dublin.

Someone with the same name appears in Louth in the 1901 census (as a boarder with a different family name). The age is consistent enough with the 1911 age.

I also know that this individuals prior generations lived around Louth.
My guess is that somehow the place of birth on the 1911 census was given as Dublin City for whatever reasons. A slightly prejudiced educated guess would be that he somehow felt more part of Dublin and might (even though census was confidential document not to be seen by employers) have felt more comfortable fudging the place of birth to be Dublin.

Other things are now piecing together based on those great familysearch links you gave me. It would appear he was actually born in Dunshaughlin and the mother's name appears to correspond with a marriage record back in Louth. Either the marriage broke up, father joined army and mother sent him back to her side of the family because the name of the family he seems to be with (as boarder) in 1901 appears to have his mother's maiden name.

On another note... I should thank you for an answer on another forum (Meath/rootsweb). It was about the same persons record showing a place of birth == Dunslaughter. The extracted records show that this was infact Dunshaughlin so oddly the index has the typo but the detailed record shows the correct place of birth. In any case, your educated guess on Dunslaughter being a mis-transcription of Dunshaughlin is vindicated

..thanks!

I know there is a thread on here about ages being mis-reported on the 1901/1911 census data. Is anyone else finding misleading places of birth.
Luckily in this case I knew to check Louth on account of knowing that extra general info about the overall families origins being from that county.

--ifc

shanew · 08-08-2010 10:39am

from what I've seen age is more likely to be wrong on the census returns than the place of birth - usually just a year or two out, but sometimes more.

One possible reason I've come across for the POB being incorrect is where the a different person filled in the census form. It's usually the head of household did this, although the enumerator (usually a DMP/RIC officer) filled it out if the head of household was illiterate. You can check the signature on the form (bottom right) to confirm who filled it in.

Shane

ifconfig · 08-08-2010 11:48am

ShaneW.

Many thanks again for your sharing your knowledge on this.

I have a couple of other questions regarding those familysearch online indexes and extracted records.
Are those digitized LDS indexes and records ?
I've read in the Grenham "tracing your Irish ancestors" book something about the LDS having missed a fair chunk of records post-1870s.
Is this correct ? Have they got the entire indexes/indices but not the extracts or are there chunks of index information missing also.

The reason I say this is because I am having a lot of difficulty tracing a marriage event which, by census calculations, should have taken place around 1907. Of course, the marriage may have happened in Belfast outside of the 26 counties.

The other thing which is emerging with the interesting search I am doing is that I have this man narrowed to 2 candidates. One born in Dunshaughlin in 1879 and the other born in Dublin around 1873. His census age and even death record appears to be consistent with the 1875 date as extrapolated from the 1911 census stated age. Given what you said about the head of household filling in the forms I am now thinking that the person I am looking for is the person born in Dublin.

Moreoever, the person I am conducting this search for recalls hearing about his grandfather (the man I am searching for) or uncles serving in the Boer War. Based on a birth date in the 1870s this was most likely his grandfather and would explain why he isn't on the 1901 census ! It may also explain the missing marriage record in this state. He may have married a woman who he met say in Belfast or similar when returning from war and before settling back in Dublin.

To add fuel to the fire the Dunshaughlin born individual enlisted for 1 years service in 1914 and I think I have (via ancestry.com) his leaving papers. The person who I am tracing was in Dublin by 1911 and raising a young family and had another stated occupation.

-ifc

pinkypinky · 08-08-2010 11:56am

I have a gg grandfather who said he was born in Dublin City on the 1911 and wrote Cork for the 1901. He's someone who is deeply wrong about ages (doesn't know how many years he's married, daughter's age and son-in-law's age on 1911). My grandmother always said her father was from Cork. He died young and I have found his birth in Dublin. After seeing her grandfather's different census info, I wonder now if she was confusing the 2 men. He was born 20 years before civil registration and I believe I have found his birth in Dublin actually on parish records but am waiting for all the Cork records to be online to rule it out.

Btw, Belfast's civil records for 1907 are on the LDS site - it's only post 1922 that the 6 Northern counties' records are absent from it.

shanew · 08-08-2010 12:47pm

When searching for records on the Index it's worth trying variations in spelling of the name (both first and surname), or even just entering the surname on it's own. You can also use wildcard search on the surname (min 3 chars).

I'm not sure what the 1870 note refers to as far as I know the Civil Index that familysearch have online is as complete as it can be - allowing for mistranscriptions etc , and or course errors and omissions in the original index GRO books. I suspect the note may refer to the old IGI style (a mix of extracted and submitted) records on familysearch. Their collections have been updated several times recently, and maybe the data in the book is slightly out of date. The Irish BMD Index includes records up to 1958 for the 26 counties, and as pinkypinky mentioned, all Ireland up to end 1921.

p.s. where was his wife born ?

Shane

ifconfig · 08-08-2010 1:24pm

ShaneW ;
His wife (in 1911) census was listed also as having been born in the City of Dublin. I will try, as you suggest, wildcard and alternative spellings, just in case.
On the census form it was stated that they were married for 4 yrs.
That would extrapolate to a 1907 marriage.

pinkypinky · 08-08-2010 6:14pm

shanew wrote: »

I'm not sure what the 1870 note refers to as far as I know the Civil Index that familysearch have online is as complete as it can be - allowing for mistranscriptions etc , and or course errors and omissions in the original index GRO books. I suspect the note may refer to the old IGI style (a mix of extracted and submitted) records on familysearch. Their collections have been updated several times recently, and maybe the data in the book is slightly out of date. The Irish BMD Index includes records up to 1958 for the 26 counties, and as pinkypinky mentioned, all Ireland up to end 1921.
Shane

I believe you're right Shane. His book is talking about the IGI section.

ifconfig · 08-08-2010 8:14pm

Just some general observations on those family/search LDS search engines.
The indexes seem rich with info.

Getting record extracts seems to be more hit and miss.
Where it is a miss could I be still reasonably confident that the GRO will have the more detailed records ? I assume the answer is yes since the indexes can't be just indexes they reference actual existing records.
Unless I am doing something wrong with the URL and form you sent me for the detailed record extraction (which I am deeply grateful for, by the way).

Another, unrelated question :
Boer War records for Irish/British citizens, 2nd Boer war, this is at the end of the 19th century. I read somewhere that there are medal records online but you need to know the regiment name to drill down into them.
I have an ancestry.com account which seems to be good for WWI/WWII records but I really don't know how to locate someone who is Irish and who served in the Boer War.

-ifc

shanew · 08-08-2010 8:40pm

Coverage for extracted records is patchy, some counties and dates are better than others. See the about this collection link for more details on the date and numbers includes.

The GRO should find details for research certs ok for the vast majority of records you find in the index. There index books were created manually, so there are a few mistakes and mis-indexes, but these are very rare.

Ireland was part of the UK during the Boer Wars - so Ancestry or FindMyPast are the places to check.

Shane

pinkypinky · 08-08-2010 9:23pm

The UK National Archives have the military records and there is a lot online.

ifconfig · 08-08-2010 11:42pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

The UK National Archives have the military records and there is a lot online.

On the National Archives (UK) site:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-subject/boerwar.htm

"What records can I see online?

There are no significant collections of records on the subject of the Boer War online."

I have , though, found this site :
http://www.britishmedals.us/files/rifbw.htm
Which has records of the different regiments, divisions, etc including (as above Irish Fusilliers who were awarded medals in the 2nd Boer War)
The site also has a fairly comprehensive medal/honour list for other regiments, etc but takes a good while to go through if you don't know the division the individual might have served in.
So far, as it happens, I haven't located the individual. In any case, it was rather sketchy as to whether he did serve in the Boer war or not.

-ifc

ifconfig · 09-08-2010 12:08pm

I have another question on the GRO records.

Sorry if this was answered before.

I have an index for a birth in 1873 in Dublin.

There is also an extracted record using the LDS familysearch web tool.

The extracted record doesn't state the father or mother's birthplace.
Might the LDS have partially transcribed the record or was it commonplace for the original records not to have recorded this information.
Were those details optional details as far as the original registrations were concerned ?

--ifc

shanew · 09-08-2010 12:18pm

Irish birth records dont include parent births place... familysearch use a generic form to display the data (some other countries do include details like this)

An Irish (or English) birth cert will have :

Registration District/County etc
Name of Child
date and place of birth
father's name, place of residence & occupation
mother's full maiden name
name, address & qualification of informant
(e.g. Patrick Murphy, Ballymore, father - or Mary Devine, Tullymore, midwife)
name of registrar

Shane

ifconfig · 09-08-2010 7:25pm

Thanks ShaneW - that makes sense now.

In this case I am trying to trace a family lineage back to a town outside Dublin and place of birth of the oldest traceable relative in Dublin would have confirmed that fact.
If it is not recorded then I am pretty much out of options for getting full confirmation that I am following the correct line of ancestors.
Que sera

-ifc

John Mason · 09-08-2010 10:49pm

i have access to the military records on ancestory.co.uk if you want me to do a search?

ifconfig · 09-08-2010 11:19pm

irishbird wrote: »

i have access to the military records on ancestory.co.uk if you want me to do a search?

Very kind of you, Irishbird.
Actually I have a paid account with Ancestry.co.uk also.
However, I am pretty sure that Boer war records have not yet been put into a digital index yet.
I've done a bit of homework on this and it seems that there are microfilms in the UK National Archives but the sheer volume of veterans from that conflict is massive and it is apparently painstakingly difficult to find an individual unless you know roughly the name of the regiment, etc.
I did find a list of honors for Irish Fusilliers and the individual wasn't on it.

I can send you a PM if you like with the name of the individual (if you believe you have a better knack with Ancestry.co.uk).
I did find WWI records on Ancestry.
I believe that the other site (findmyrelatives ?) might be somewhat better with respect to having some form of indexation on Boer war veteran lists.

-ifc

shanew · 10-08-2010 8:00am

I believe that the other site (findmyrelatives ?) might be somewhat better with respect to having some form of indexation on Boer war veteran lists.

I believe FindMyPast are working on more military records (Boer war timeframe) from the UK Archives at the moment.

Shane

Ponster · 10-08-2010 8:55am

ifconfig wrote: »

However, I am pretty sure that Boer war records have not yet been put into a digital index yet.
-ifc

I believe that they just have the Boer War casualties list.

owenc · 10-08-2010 9:04am

shanew wrote: »

I believe FindMyPast are working on more military records (Boer war timeframe) from the UK Archives at the moment.

Shane

What type of military records do they have and how far do they go back??

shanew · 10-08-2010 9:09am

owenc wrote: »

What type of military records do they have and how far do they go back??

Their website should have more details : www.findmypast.co.uk

Shane

owenc · 10-08-2010 9:19am

shanew wrote: »

Their website should have more details : www.findmypast.co.uk

Shane

Yes some very usefull records there except you have to pay for them!:mad: What a police force be under? Armed forces? Where would you go to find out about a certain police force?

shanew · 10-08-2010 9:25am

Most of the detailed military information (medal cards, detailed records etc) will be on pay-sites - Ancestry, FindMyPast etc

What police force are you searching for details on ?

Shane

GRO records

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