Subs Discussion

BlackWizard · 20-11-2006 8:34pm #1

First game we were confidently beating the opposing team and no subs where
used.

Second game we were confidently beating the opposing team who only had 9 men
yet no subs where used.

The league also supports roll on roll off subs.

So whats going on Des?

You could of at least of text me back and explained the situation instead of
"subs should continue to come to the games" O_o

Xavi6 · 20-11-2006 10:10pm

BlackWizard wrote:

First game we were confidently beating the opposing team and no subs where
used.

Second game we were confidently beating the opposing team who only had 9 men
yet no subs where used.

The league also supports roll on roll off subs.

So whats going on Des?

You could of at least of text me back and explained the situation instead of
"subs should continue to come to the games" O_o

In fairness Darragh there were three subs made in the first game. Ok there was just the one last night and maybe there should have been more. The way the squad is though there are people missing every week so opportunities are there.

This week Cathal won't be there. It's a big loss but a chance for somebody to come in and prove themselves in the position. Unfortunately a lot of people seem to be competing for the same position i.e. up front and midfield. We don't have a lot of options at the back. Inevitably it will take a while for everyone to get their chance to impress in their preferred position. Don't forget, we are only two games into our first league campaign. The squad are still finding their feet as is Des. I wouldn't be panicking just yet.

I'll be there Sunday.

BlackWizard · 20-11-2006 11:35pm

Xavi6 wrote:

In fairness Darragh there were three subs made in the first game. Ok there was just the one last night and maybe there should have been more. The way the squad is though there are people missing every week so opportunities are there.

In the friendly there was no activity from the sub bench either. A friendly ,
roll on roll off sub system and no sub activity.

In the first game two players got injured. One player had to ask to be taken off.
The last sub only got on for 15 seconds.

And the second game...well you said it. There should of been changes.

With a roll on roll off system and such a big competitive side I just feel that
the substitutes are not being used. Even in normal 11-a-side games subs
get on for a few minutes at the end.

As far as players competing for the same place goes , its not all that true.
A lot of the players including myself are capable of playing in all sorts of
positions. Joe, the striker came on the wing as a sub and scored within 15
seconds

Also these type of things shouldnt even be discussed on a public thread. If
I wanted to do that I would of made one at the start rather than texting Des
after the game. I could of even mentioned it in the dressing room but I didnt.
I knew better than that at the time. These things are sorted out in minutes
in private conversation...

Xavi6 · 21-11-2006 12:39am

BlackWizard wrote:

Also these type of things shouldnt even be discussed on a public thread. If
I wanted to do that I would of made one at the start rather than texting Des
after the game. I could of even mentioned it in the dressing room but I didnt.
I knew better than that at the time. These things are sorted out in minutes
in private conversation...

Then you shouldn't have replied to what Des said on here, making every other player aware of something you want kept private. If it is that big an issue then maybe you should say it in the dressing room in future. We are a team after all and no one should be left out of the loop, especially if more than one person feels the same way.

As for players playing in positions, to be honest I haven't seen you play anywhere other than up top. If you could play centre half it would be fantastic, especially for Sunday. I do still think we are short at the back so anyone, not just you, who can or has played there please raise a hand.

BlackWizard · 21-11-2006 10:06am

If Des didnt want to talk about this privately and then mentioned the issue here
what else was I meant to do? Keep spamming him with texts and PMs in hope
that one day he will reply?

At the start of the season we were asked what position we all play. I played
CM last season, CD the season or two before and this season Im up front. I can even
play RM but havent done so in months.

But isnt that what this subs stuff is for? To try out stuff like this. Giving people
a few minutes on the pitch to see what they can do.

Savman · 21-11-2006 12:34pm

BlackWizard wrote:

If Des didnt want to talk about this privately and then mentioned the issue here
what else was I meant to do? Keep spamming him with texts and PMs in hope
that one day he will reply?

At the start of the season we were asked what position we all play. I played
CM last season, CD the season or two before and this season Im up front. I can even
play RM but havent done so in months.

But isnt that what this subs stuff is for? To try out stuff like this. Giving people
a few minutes on the pitch to see what they can do.

Maybe Des could be a bit better with d'aul communication (;)) but that's no reason to be disenchanted. I can't remember who you are exactly and I haven't been down in a few weeks but I will say usually when a player complains of not "getting his game" it's because of one, or both, of the following reasons:
i) the team are doing well and the players ahead of you aren't doing anything wrong that would warrant them being dropped
ii) you're doing something wrong or incorrect in which case you should be told why and what you need to improve on.

There's a player on my Saturday team who is almost leaving cos he cant get a game Right Full, the manager's have tried to tell him its only because his throw ins are poor (foul throw everytime, our fullbacks take all the throws) but there's no talking to him anymore. So, Blackwizard, all I'd say is stick it out that bit longer but remember, now that you've made an issue out of this, there will be more eyes on you when you get your chance so make sure you grab it and keep someone else out of the team for a while. I do agree that in friendlies, it should be roll on/roll off as much as possible to give everyone a decent run.

Xavi6 wrote:

I do still think we are short at the back so anyone, not just you, who can or has played there please raise a hand.

*raises hand*
I can play anywhere except poxy left side but I'm not around this week (still finishing off other astro league) so no use to ye this week Cap'n!

BlackWizard · 21-11-2006 1:09pm

Its not that I'm not getting my game. Its the way the subs are being used.
I don't mind being a sub for the rest of the year if they are actually used.

It seems like the gaffer is showing no respect to the subs at all. Usually most
mangers will throw them on as often as he can afford to. Especially during
games that we have had and the roll on roll off system. Its why these leagues
are often so popular is because usually everyone gets on. Its a great team
game.

Your teammate should of course stay with that team. If he got on the pitch a
few times and the manager knows what he can do and tells him he needs to
work on some part of his game then he should do that. Work on it and the manger
will bring him on as a sub now and then. This saturday league might not have
roll on roll off subs and your manager seems to know what his player can do
so its hard to compare the two situations. But I do understand where you are
coming from. Seen it happen lots when I used to play basketball.

Savman · 21-11-2006 1:29pm

BlackWizard wrote:

Especially during
games that we have had and the roll on roll off system. Its why these leagues
are often so popular is because usually everyone gets on. Its a great team
game.

Agreed. That's what we do in our 5-a-side Astro league, we always bring 8 players so as soon as someone gets knackered, off ye go. Although in fairness that's a different game cos the ball's never out of play, I think with 11 a side astro nobody wants to leave the pitch so a Manager has to actually go thru the process of taking someone off.

Can you see the predicament here? If I was dragged off after 10mins damn right I'd be asking questions so its up to the players to use the roll on/roll off system which effectively bypasses the Manager. If using the Manager system then I think all substitutions have to be made by one person, Des in this case, but that's more in line with a proper footy team.

Or a people still of the idea that this is just a "sunday kickabout" kinda team?

Serbian · 21-11-2006 1:40pm

Savman wrote:

I think with 11 a side astro nobody wants to leave the pitch [...] It's up to the players to use the roll on/roll off system which effectively bypasses the Manager.

There's a bit of a contradiction there. The Manager needs to call the shots when it comes to team decisions (substitutions or otherwise). To have the players decide if and when they want to be subbed undermines the manager's role in my opinion. I think if anyone is subbed for another player, they will accept "I wanted to give him a chance" as an explanation. They may not be happy about it, but they shouldn't begrudge another player's chance to prove himself.

MrJoeSoap · 21-11-2006 1:43pm

Serbian wrote:

There's a bit of a contradiction there. The Manager needs to call the shots when it comes to team decisions (substitutions or otherwise). To have the players decide if and when they want to be subbed undermines the manager's role in my opinion. I think if anyone is subbed for another player, they will accept "I wanted to give him a chance" as an explanation. They may not be happy about it, but they shouldn't begrudge another player's chance to prove himself.

True.

I don't think that discussing this here is the best option either. If everyone arrives in plenty of time for the game on Sunday I'm sure there'll be no problem having a chat about it, giving people a chance to give their views etc...

Calling people's "respect" into question on here is not the way to take things forward.

Savman · 21-11-2006 1:46pm

Serbian wrote:

There's a bit of a contradiction there. The Manager needs to call the shots when it comes to team decisions (substitutions or otherwise). To have the players decide if and when they want to be subbed undermines the manager's role in my opinion. I think if anyone is subbed for another player, they will accept "I wanted to give him a chance" as an explanation. They may not be happy about it, but they shouldn't begrudge another player's chance to prove himself.

It's not a contradiction in the context of the post, I was referring partially to the way 5-a-side astro works which is manager-less and it's up to you to come off when yer tired. That changes entirely when one person has to make a decision to take someone off, you're into a whole other can of worms there as I've seen time and time again with various players getting peeved at being taken off.

I don't think it's a contradiction to point out the 2 different ways of doing things...

KdjaCL · 21-11-2006 2:38pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

True.

I don't think that discussing this here is the best option

Bit late for that

Sav is correct on both points, Manager has to decide subs but players also if i was ****ed i would ask to be subbed i have done before and prolly will again.

kdjac

Q_Ball · 21-11-2006 2:51pm

Xavi6 wrote:

I do still think we are short at the back so anyone, not just you, who can or has played there please raise a hand.

/jumps about waving arms maniacally while screaming "look at me! I'm over here! look at me! LOOK AT ME!!!"

Serbian · 21-11-2006 3:20pm

Savman wrote:

It's not a contradiction in the context of the post, I was referring partially to the way 5-a-side astro works which is manager-less and it's up to you to come off when yer tired. That changes entirely when one person has to make a decision to take someone off, you're into a whole other can of worms there as I've seen time and time again with various players getting peeved at being taken off.

I don't think it's a contradiction to point out the 2 different ways of doing things...

That's fair enough, I just mis-understood.

FrankGrimes wrote:

translation: I didn't like the look of that semi-hurricane and decided I was too comfy on the couch in front of the fire?

You know me too well :P

Savman · 21-11-2006 3:32pm

group hug

FrankGrimes · 21-11-2006 3:33pm

Lads, what’s wrong with discussing the subs thing here? At least everyone has an equal opportunity to get their voice heard and people have time to think before posting so you’re less likely to get heat of the moment rows. In a dressing room the loud ones get heard and the quieter ones might not pipe up and they’ll still go away annoyed and Darragh would likely be cut off before finishing his point. I don’t agree with much of what he’s saying, particularly the suggestion that Des is disrespecting the subs, but he’s entitled to his opinion and is airing it pretty reasonably.

Here’s my view for what it’s worth, I’m open to other views and this is just my opinion: before I signed up I made sure we’d be picking the team on merit and selecting the best team to win each game, not just giving everyone a run out. Subs are still an important part of that though cos they can improve your team during a game (e.g. Joe scoring with first touch), and even when the team is doing well giving them a run when we’re in a safe position lets them develop and show the manager what they can do and maybe play their way into the team. Given the mandate that subs are to be used to improve the team both short-term and long-term, I think the manager is free to handle tactical subs in whatever way he sees fit.

There’s a separate issue of using subs to give people a 10 minute breather as opposed to a tactical sub. We should encourage lads to put up their hand if they’re knackered and need a break. Manager can then decide what to do. If a lad knows he will be back on in 10 if he takes a breather for the good of the team he’s more likely to raise his hand and say he’s knackered. That way another fella gets a run and we keep our work rate high which is a winner all round. Maybe the infrequent use of subs so far is making lads think if they go off for a quick rest they won’t get back on and so they stay on even though they're too knackered to track back. For me that’d be a pity cos that’s the way we’re gonna get the best out of this big squad that we have. But I don’t think throwing lads on for the sake of it is the way to go either, cos partnerships are still forming and the more time we play together the better we’ll get. I reckon it’s about finding a balance.

Savman · 21-11-2006 3:55pm

FrankGrimes wrote:

Lads, what’s wrong with discussing the subs thing here? At least everyone has an equal opportunity to get their voice heard and people have time to think before posting so you’re less likely to get heat of the moment rows. In a dressing room the loud ones get heard and the quieter ones might not pipe up and they’ll still go away annoyed and Darragh would likely be cut off before finishing his point. I don’t agree with much of what he’s saying, particularly the suggestion that Des is disrespecting the subs, but he’s entitled to his opinion and is airing it pretty reasonably.

My sentiments too tbh. I was just trying to explain to Darragh the difference between roll on subs and team-improving subs. Personally, I'm in favour of the latter unless there's a 3+ goal cushion.

Any of us who've played for teams before have probably seen that the issue of players getting a game is the main reason fellas leave, hell they're saying out-of-favour Robben is thinking of leaving Chelsea!! It makes a manager's job a no win situation. I like to see healthy competition for places and it makes "friendlies" all the more interesting.

Darragh, just so you know, I'll have missed my fair share of games by the time I return in a few weeks but you can bet your ass I'll be snapping at the heels of whoever is ahead of me in the pecking order (careful now, it could be you!).

The team benefits, eh?

_blank_ · 21-11-2006 4:09pm

I've been reading this thread, and decided to keep my council, and not give hurried answers without thinking about them. Also, I'm having a particularly busy week in work. I have some free time now, so I'll try to post something resembling an answer.

Darragh, thanks for airing your views, I have said from the start that I'm open to suggestions/criticism as I'm only learning the ropes manager-wise. Three people in particular started PM-ing me with suggestions etc, but two of them have stopped, I don't know why. I'm still open to this, so ANYONE who has a suggestion, please, PM me. I'll read it, and take it on board.

BlackWizard wrote:

So whats going on Des?

Nothing.

The players who won 4-0 in the first game, by and large, kept their place. It would have been disastrous, I feel, to change that. Why change a winning formula?

BlackWizard wrote:

could of at least of text me back and explained the situation instead of
"subs should continue to come to the games" O_o

I didn't/don't have any credit. I'm getting paid on Friday though, I'll have some then.

Xavi6 wrote:

The squad are still finding their feet as is Des.

I have never claimed to be Sir Alex Ferguson, Pat Fenlon, or even Jonhhy Mac.

I'm going to make some mistakes, and come to think of it, I didn't see anyone else volunteering to do it. I don't say this as a slight at anyone, but I was asked to be the manager, I said yes.

BlackWizard wrote:

In the first game two players got injured. One player had to ask to be taken off.

The last sub only got on for 15 seconds.

The two injured players were subbed off.

On the fifteen second thing - yeah, fair enough on that one, I had calculated the time left incorrectly.

BlackWizard wrote:

Joe, the striker came on the wing as a sub and scored within 15
seconds

Which just goes to show - I'm a tactical genius.:p

BlackWizard wrote:

Also these type of things shouldnt even be discussed on a public thread.

Agreed. But it's gone a bit far now, so I feel I have to do this.

BlackWizard wrote:

If Des didnt want to talk about this privately and then mentioned the issue here
what else was I meant to do? Keep spamming him with texts and PMs in hope that one day he will reply?

When did I say I didn't want to discuss it privately?

As I have already said, and I have done from the start, I am open to suggestions/criticism from ANYONE.

BlackWizard wrote:

It seems like the gaffer is showing no respect to the subs at all.

Well, I don't know what to say to this.

Serbian wrote:

There's a bit of a contradiction there. The Manager needs to call the shots when it comes to team decisions (substitutions or otherwise). To have the players decide if and when they want to be subbed undermines the manager's role in my opinion.

Either a manager is wanted, or not. When the idea was first mooted in August I didn't hear one dissenting voice.

Serbian wrote:

I think if anyone is subbed for another player, they will accept "I wanted to give him a chance" as an explanation. They may not be happy about it, but they shouldn't begrudge another player's chance to prove himself.

Aha, but when that happened in a friendly game, without mentioning names, one player went straight away from the pitch with twenty minutes to go in the second half. Never to be seen again.

FrankGrimes wrote:

In a dressing room the loud ones get heard and the quieter ones might not pipe up and they’ll still go away annoyed and Darragh would likely be cut off before finishing his point.

I agree with Jules here, if anyone has a point to make in the dressing room, I will make sure they are heard.

FrankGrimes wrote:

I don’t agree with much of what he’s saying, particularly the suggestion that Des is disrespecting the subs, but he’s entitled to his opinion and is airing it pretty reasonably.

I don't feel I'm disrespecting anyone.

FrankGrimes wrote:

Here’s my view for what it’s worth, I’m open to other views and this is just my opinion: before I signed up I made sure we’d be picking the team on merit and selecting the best team to win each game, not just giving everyone a run out.

This is the impression I was under also. If there is a different consensus, I'll be happy to work with it.

FrankGrimes wrote:

We should encourage lads to put up their hand if they’re knackered and need a break.

In fairness, this happened in the first game. John asked to come off because he was tired, and Joe was stuck on.

FrankGrimes wrote:

I don’t think throwing lads on for the sake of it is the way to go either, cos partnerships are still forming and the more time we play together the better we’ll get. I reckon it’s about finding a balance.

This is the crux of it for me. Do people want the TEAM to develop, or a pretty much random Starting XI for every game.

The teams that have been picked for our five games so far have developed from August, people have come to training and shown what they are best at, how long they can last, and been picked accordingly. I don't know what else I can do.

Savman wrote:

Or a people still of the idea that this is just a "sunday kickabout" kinda team?

Answers on a postcard please.

_blank_ · 21-11-2006 4:18pm

By the way.

I'm printing off this thread and hiding it behind my back in anticipation of a Saipan Style showdown on Sunday.

Just in case.

MrJoeSoap · 21-11-2006 4:23pm

seansouth wrote:

Which just goes to show - I'm a tactical genius.:p

In fairness, this happened in the first game. John asked to come off because he was tired, and Joe was stuck on.

So which is it? Tactical genius or player power?

_blank_ · 21-11-2006 4:50pm

I just wanted to keep the Templeroan Match thread on-topic, so I moved the posts on this subject into a new thread.

If you want the title changed Darragh, I'll do it, if you can't edit yourself.

Quball15 · 21-11-2006 6:23pm

I think that the starting eleven will never want to come off, but if the manager swaps you off, it should be accepted. but we're still in the early stages and I think that everyone is still trying to prove themselves and establish themselves in the team. If I was dropped, I would just become determined to get back in. I think its a case of early days yet, and waiting and taking your chances.

If we're going Saipan on this....I think its a disgrace that we don't have under pitch heating and scantily clad women giving massages at half time.

_blank_ · 21-11-2006 6:28pm

Quball15 wrote:

I think its a disgrace that we don't have under pitch heating and scantily clad women giving massages at half time.

I've been on to the BFA about this.

They say they are trying to sort it.

BlackWizard · 21-11-2006 8:48pm

The players who won 4-0 in the first game, by and large, kept their place. It would have been disastrous, I feel, to change that. Why change a winning formula?

I never mentioned changing the starting line up. Its the subs I was talking
about. Using them during the game.

I didn't/don't have any credit. I'm getting paid on Friday though, I'll have some then.

You should have PMed me and explained/chatted about the situation instead
of replying with something like "subs should come to games". Or even put the
discussion off by saying we'll discuss it at the match next week..then everyone
wouldnt get their say I guess. So maybe all turned out well

Tactical Genius?

I'm going to make some mistakes, and come to think of it, I didn't see anyone else volunteering to do it. I don't say this as a slight at anyone, but I was asked to be the manager, I said yes.

I think mistakes are really only mistakes when you dont learn from them. We
all understand how you came to power at the boards helm and are definitely
grateful!

Agreed. But it's gone a bit far now, so I feel I have to do this.

Nice one. title is fine...

As I have already said, and I have done from the start, I am open to suggestions/criticism from ANYONE...Well, I don't know what to say to this.

I dont want this to come across as bitching or anything like that. Im not
leaving either if I gave off that impression. I just played 7-a-side for the last
two years and I guess Im used to subs being used in a different manner.
It seemed like you showed no respect towards the subs for turning up in such
****e weather and supporting the team each game. None are really rewarded
with a few minutes in the game unless you are forced to sub them on.

This is the crux of it for me. Do people want the TEAM to develop, or a pretty much random Starting XI for every game.

The teams that have been picked for our five games so far have developed from August, people have come to training and shown what they are best at, how long they can last, and been picked accordingly. I don't know what else I can do.

Okay I was being misunderstood a little, my fault I guess. I dont want you
to change the starting eleven, in fact I dont feel comfortable talking with
any manager about their choices in the starting eleven. Its his decision
unless he asks for advice. If it has to be brought up ever, Ive always seen it
done through the captain privately...or antrax in the post

Its the subs that I was talking about. How I feel they could be used more.
We only average about 3 to 4 a game so it shouldnt be hard to give them all
a run around in games we are comfortable in.

gotta go watch some silly english team take on celtic..late for it.. so ill check
this late. havent read over it again for stupid things.

Subs Discussion

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