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The erection & removal of British colonial monuments in Ireland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Ok fair enough first time I read your comment it seemed you took it more personally than you had. I'm ok with answering questions when they are in good faith (not 'questions' about whether me and another poster are related for instance though) but a pm would be a better way of communicating and not bringing a thread off topic in future. Thanks. B.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am new to boards so a bit of latitude please, but how can you moderate and participate in a discussion/debate at the same time.

    He is a benovolent despot. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Just came across an interesting article in the The Guardian about Iraq's struggle with Saddam era monuments.
    Other relics have been much easier for the government to deal with, such as the Saddam statue that was toppled by US marines in April 2003, and copper busts of Ba'athist leaders that were erected all over the country. Their removal was straightforward, like lancing boils, say the men who run the country now.

    As Iraq slowly assembles its fourth government since the fall of Baghdad in 2003, attention is now turning to the more difficult issues - what to do with the landmarks and relics that are unique to the Saddam regime but which have also become synonymous with Iraq. Some, like the crossed swords that bookend Saddam's former military parade ground in central Baghdad, are as identifiable to the capital as the Hagia Sophia Mosque is to Istanbul, or the Old City to Damascus.

    Several prominent politicians, such as Ahmed Chalabi, one of the key opposition figures to Saddam, are adamant that anything connected to the executed dictator must go.

    "The best talent in Iraq was ordered to produce monuments which are designed to suppress the people," says Chalabi, who headed the National Deba'athification Commission in the early years after Saddam's removal.

    "This is very destructive for the psyche of the Iraqi population. This is a clear reminder of the consequences of totalitarianism and idealising a person that embodies evil. They have brought nothing to Iraq. They are not worth celebrating. They have nothing aesthetic to offer. I am for removing them."


    Other men who also played a key role, first in Saddam's removal, then his trial and execution, are more sanguine.

    "He was there and he ruled and he impacted on the world," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, the former national security adviser who escorted Saddam to the gallows. "But he was a part of our history. He was a bad part of our history, but he made a huge difference, whether we like it or not. We need not bury the legacy of that period. We need to remember it, all what is bad and what is good and learn lessons. And the most important lesson is that dictatorship should not return to Iraq."

    In 2005, the government formed a committee to oversee the removal of symbols linked to Saddam.

    Ali al-Moussawi, a spokesman for the prime minister, Nour al-Maliki, underscored the dilemna. "Not everything built during this regime we should remove," he said from his office, which overlooks the crossed swords.

    "There were some sculptures however that were solely about dictatorship and control over Iraq. Some spoke to dictators and battles and they should be removed. They have ethnic and sectarian meanings.


    "The statues of Saddam have no place on the streets. It is not his privilege to keep them there. If they remain in the community they will provoke the people."


    But Moussawi was more open to compromise over the Blood Qur'an: "We should keep this as a document for the brutality of Saddam, because he should not have done this.

    "It says a lot about him. It should never be put in a museum though, because no Iraqi wants to see it. Maybe in the future it could be sent to a private museum, like memorabilia from the Hitler and Stalin regimes."

    In time, the legacy of Saddam Hussein and his 30 years of brutality is likely to become part of a more detached debate in Iraq's national consciousness, much like the discussions that took place in Germany in the late 1940s after the ousting of the Nazis.

    For now, though, the soul searching is being left to those who made the disputed works, and those entrusted as their temporary caretakers.
    Abbas Shakir Joody al-Baghdadi was the calligrapher commissioned to work on the Qur'an. He sat with Saddam for two years after receiving a phone call from the tyrant himself.

    Saddam, at that point, had decided to re-embrace with his religion after his elder son, Uday, had survived an assassination attempt.

    The result of Baghdadi's work was an exquisitely crafted book that would take its place in any art exhibition - if it wasn't for the fact that it was written in blood.

    "I don't like to talk about this now," says Baghdadi, speaking by telephone from the US state of Virginia, where he now lives. "It was painful part of my life that I want to forget about."

    Back at the mosque, Sheikh Samarrai is nervous. He fears the wrath that will descend on him - from the government definitely, and possibly from a much higher power - if he swings open the final door.

    "Even if I let you in, you would need to stand 10 feet away from the pages and they are all behind glass cases," he said. Then he makes his decision. "It is just not worth it for anyone. They will stir up too much trouble."

    Some things in Iraq will take many more years to confront.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/19/saddam-legacy-quran-iraqi-government

    Basically the program has been to remove the statues, rename streets and suburbs (Saddam City > Sadr City) but keep buildings and relics. Very much similar to what happened in Ireland.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    I call for all historical connections with the UK to be ended forthwith, starting with the language we all speak.

    Lets put up statues to our national heroes, such as Bertie and the two Brians.

    LOL i don't think that would be very succesfull and it would waste alot of money aswell


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