Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

MynamesColm · 22-01-2021 5:25pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Call it a hunch

Gatling wrote: »

Where do you think they should serve time .

Men's prison or womens prison .

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.

Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?

Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

Gatling · 22-01-2021 5:28pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who

Ahhh one of those so ......

suicide_circus · 22-01-2021 5:29pm

It's an absurdity, Colm, that's what it boils down to for me. Trangenderism is just a social construct after all.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 22-01-2021 5:29pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

How do you know the person isn't genuine?

I don't quite understand the point of posting that story, except to say that trans people can be as abusive as anybody else.

Well, it shows why many women are concerned. Males are responsible for the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes and there’s no reason why transgender women would be any different from other males in that regard. Yet the safeguards society has put in place to give females their own spaces have been weakened here in Ireland by allowing this arbitrary exemption.

Gruffalux · 22-01-2021 5:30pm

https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1351632859950411777?s=19

Between 2015 and 2019 the number of women sexually abusing children rose by 84%.

I am not saying women do not abuse children- they most certainly do.

However an 84% increase in 4 years is very unlikely. What is more likely is that crimes are being recorded as per the gender the abuser identifies.

This is wrong.

Gruffalux · 22-01-2021 5:33pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.

Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?

Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

MynamesColm · 22-01-2021 5:41pm

Gatling wrote: »

Ahhh one of those so ......

A person who needs information to make a decision? I would think it'd benefit you too.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, it shows why many women are concerned. Males are responsible for the vast majority of violent and sexual crimes and there’s no reason why transgender women would be any different from other males in that regard. Yet the safeguards society has put in place to give females their own spaces have been weakened here in Ireland by allowing this arbitrary exemption.

Now that's different to what the poster of the two links was worried about. Gatling was worried that the person who committed the crime would decide to identify as female to go to a women's prison.

Man violently rapes woman then decides he self identifies as a woman for judicial reasons ie lighter sentence and being sent to a "women's" prison on conviction ,so violent offender gets sent to to a target rich environment.
And not for the first newly registered

I do agree that there should be policies in place that safeguard inmates (male and female). However, I do not necessarily agree that this should limit a persons ability to self identify.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 5:44pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

Gatling was worried t

No I'm not .

Must be the weekend

MynamesColm · 22-01-2021 5:45pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

suicide_circus · 22-01-2021 5:47pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

Why would that be?

MynamesColm · 22-01-2021 5:49pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's an absurdity, Colm, that's what it boils down to for me. Trangenderism is just a social construct after all.

At least you're honest about it, not trying to pretend it's a matter of female prisoner's safety, or unfair sporting ability!

One eyed Jack · 22-01-2021 5:52pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1351632859950411777?s=19

Between 2015 and 2019 the number of women sexually abusing children rose by 84%.

I am not saying women do not abuse children- they most certainly do.

However an 84% increase in 4 years is very unlikely. What is more likely is that crimes are being recorded as per the gender the abuser identifies.

This is wrong.

It’s really not, when you look at the actual figures for the numbers of reports in which the child abuser was reported to be female -

Victims of female child sexual abusers face "enormous stigma and shame", according to police and charities.

Figures from BBC Radio 4's File on 4 show there were over 10,400 reports of this type of abuse from 2015 to 2019 - equivalent to an average of 40 a week.

Experts say there is still a "lack of understanding" about the extent of such abuse.

The UK government said it would not allow "any safe space for sex offenders to operate - male or female".

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

Female child sex abuse 'remains taboo' while victims struggle

The authors of that tweet are being purposely disingenuous.

CtevenSrowder · 22-01-2021 5:52pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

Based on a 9 sentence metro article where do I think someone should go to prison? I think those kinds of decisions are best left to people who have all the information and facts necessary to make that decision.

Is that your only worry when it comes to gender recognition? The worry about how criminals who lie about their gender are housed?

Have you read the policy for how these decisions are made in Ireland? (I don't know what that policy is). Maybe you'll be happy that this is actually a non issue? Does that means you'd actually have no qualms about gender recognition in Ireland after that?

The only fact that matters is that they are male and as such should be sent to prison containing other men (males).

Gruffalux · 22-01-2021 5:53pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

The should not be housed in the female estate. That is all.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 22-01-2021 6:00pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

Now that's different to what the poster of the two links was worried about. Gatling was worried that the person who committed the crime would decide to identify as female to go to a women's prison.

I probably left out a few linking sentences. Said them in my head, didn’t write them down. My view is this: it doesn’t matter if it’s somebody pretending or if it’s somebody who is genuinely transgender. Either way, it’s troubling and it starts at the court case. We’ve already had a case in the UK where a physical assault victim (the perpetrator was found guilty) was told by the judge that she had to use she/her pronouns when referring to the perpetrator. That to me is perverse.

Then, whether the convicted transgender woman is genuine or not, it’s crappy for the female inmates. Most female inmates are not in for violent crime. Yes, there are naturally some violent female inmates. But a male inmate is far more likely to be violent and will almost certainly be stronger too. It’s making a situation that isn’t 100% safe even less safe. I’m not sure why ensuring the safety of transgender women prisoners means worsening the safety of the female estate. Surely a solution can be found that doesn’t throw women under the bus?

MynamesColm · 22-01-2021 6:11pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I probably left out a few linking sentences. Said them in my head, didn’t write them down. My view is this: it doesn’t matter if it’s somebody pretending or if it’s somebody who is genuinely transgender. Either way, it’s troubling and it starts at the court case. We’ve already had a case in the UK where a physical assault victim (the perpetrator was found guilty) was told by the judge that she had to use she/her pronouns when referring to the perpetrator. That to me is perverse.

Then, whether the convicted transgender woman is genuine or not, it’s crappy for the female inmates. Most female inmates are not in for violent crime. Yes, there are naturally some violent female inmates. But a male inmate is far more likely to be violent and will almost certainly be stronger too. It’s making a situation that isn’t 100% safe even less safe. I’m not sure why ensuring the safety of transgender women prisoners means worsening the safety of the female estate. Surely a solution can be found that doesn’t throw women under the bus?

I agree with you to a point. Policies should be in place to keep all inmates as safe as possible. I certainly don't claim to be all knowledgeable about prison related matters and polices.

However, for the most part I see it as irrelevant to issue of gender identity in Ireland, and should not be a limiting factor on people's gender identification.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 22-01-2021 6:27pm

MynamesColm wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. Policies should be in place to keep all inmates as safe as possible. I certainly don't claim to be all knowledgeable about prison related matters and polices.

However, for the most part I see it as irrelevant to issue of gender identity in Ireland, and should not be a limiting factor on people's gender identification.

It’s not irrelevant. We have male prisoners in the female estate in Ireland. One is a sex offender, the other has been violent towards women. It’s the reason for the incarceration, in fact. That article was an UK article, so from a country where they have sensibly put the kibosh on self-ID overriding the same sex exemptions of the Equality Act.

People should be free to identify however they wish. In that way, I’m FOR self-ID. However, what that self-ID means in terms of rights is complicated. And I see reason for hope with some recent events, that in this part of the world anyway, those complicated issue are finally getting an airing and reaching the general public.

MynamesColm wrote: »

You write that as if they are interacting with their fellow inmates, but according to the indo they are kept apart from the other inmates in the prisons at all times.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

Personally, I think that’s a massively unfair and frankly scary position to put the female inmates in. Will the security always be as tight as it should be? All the time? And if that kind of separation is possible, why not do it in the male estate?

And that article shows that prison officers aren’t very comfortable with the situation either.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 6:30pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

There are 2 very violent male bodied sex offenders in female prison in Ireland. It is not a non issue.

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

Gruffalux · 22-01-2021 6:40pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

Why should they not be kept separate from the men prisoners in the male estate? Why should the state collude to fulfil their gender identification wishes and at the expense of women?
What happens when there are less violent non-sex-abusing trans identifying males who can actually go amongst the women population?
These prisoners are kept separate precisely because they are such a violent imminent threat to women.

There needs to be a third space. It should not be encouraged that male-bodied prisoners can self identify into the female estate. 1 in 10 male travelers who are prisoners in the UK identify as women - this shows what huge potential for piss take and abuse there is in the system. At the moment they cannot have transfer as self ID is not available in the Uk but it is here.

It is an absurdity that a male bodied prisoner who has expressed specific desires to rape and murder women is imprisoned anywhere near them.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 7:29pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Why should they not be kept separate from the men prisoners in the male estate?

Because they are women.

Why should the state collude to fulfil their gender identification wishes and at the expense of women?

It's not at the expense of women. They are kept separate.

What happens when there are less violent non-sex-abusing trans identifying males who can actually go amongst the women population?

Nothing

These prisoners are kept separate precisely because they are such a violent imminent threat to women.

Exactly. As they should be.

There needs to be a third space. It should not be encouraged that male-bodied prisoners can self identify into the female estate. 1 in 10 male travelers who are prisoners in the UK identify as women - this shows what huge potential for piss take and abuse there is in the system. At the moment they cannot have transfer as self ID is not available in the Uk but it is here.

So you're using a jurisdiction which doesn't have self Id to prove there would be negative consequences to having self Id in a country that actually does have self Id? Bizarre.

...Ghost... · 22-01-2021 7:35pm

Gatling wrote: »

Where do you think they should serve time .

Men's prison or womens prison .

If your junk hangs out, you go to a mens prison. If it's tucked in, a womens prison. Same goes for transgender....whatever junk you have determines the prison you go to if sentenced to serve time.

The amount of absolute sh1te out there is dizzying. Why do some people have such a problem agreeing to basic biology? Trans aside, if you were born a male, but identify as a female and keep the salami, then sorry, you're a male. Likewise for those born as females.

My opinion is that people who identify as the opposite sex of their physical biology is mentally ill and/or seeking attention. Those enabling it are even worse and in some cases, criminal. Encouraging a child to undergo gender reassignment surgery is criminal and sick. I remember seeing a case of a 12 year old born male child in the UK undergoing the initial changes via hormone treatment. Anyone who encourages a child to do this is sick in the head; much sicker than the child about to undergo a life changing surgery they may well regret.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 7:36pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

Because women in said prison face the threat of violence and rape by men who self identify as a person who's not a male

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 7:43pm

Gatling wrote: »

Because women in said prison face the threat of violence and rape by men who self identify as a person who's not a male

No they don't. They are kept separate.

BattleCorp · 22-01-2021 7:44pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because they are women.

Not in my book they aren't.

ingalway · 22-01-2021 7:49pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

They are kept separate from the other women prisoners. I wonder why nobody ever mentions this.....

And why is that? Is it because they are violent males with the potential to rape and even kill women? No woman would stand a chance if they chose to attack them. Also, extra staff have to be assigned to them 24/7. Resources are scarce enough without this nonsense.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 22-01-2021 7:56pm

ingalway wrote: »

And why is that? Is it because they are violent males with the potential to rape and even kill women? No woman would stand a chance if they chose to attack them. Also, extra staff have to be assigned to them 24/7. Resources are scarce enough without this nonsense.

Indeed. That sounds like a precarious situation to me. As a female inmate, I’d be uneasy. I hate that we’ll probably have to wait for something bad to happen before something is done. Instead of trying to prevent based on what we know about male and female criminality and physiology.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 7:59pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

No they don't.

They do ,

I don't believe we have laws to Keep an individual confined in isolation indefinitely .

I believe it breaches multiple human rights laws

One eyed Jack · 22-01-2021 8:07pm

ingalway wrote: »

And why is that? Is it because they are violent males with the potential to rape and even kill women? No woman would stand a chance if they chose to attack them. Also, extra staff have to be assigned to them 24/7. Resources are scarce enough without this nonsense.

And people might be inclined to take claims about the welfare of inmates in prison more seriously if they weren’t already aware that it’s just more clutching at straws to portray a narrative which isn’t actually borne out by the facts. If one is concerned about incidents where women are victims of sexual violence and exploitation in prison, they would be aware that the vast majority of perpetrators of sexual violence and exploitation of women in prison, are other prison inmates and staff.

The number of inmates who are transgender who commit sexual violence and exploitation of women in prison are tiny by comparison, you can literally count them on one hand, as opposed to the number of inmates who are actually committing sexual violence and exploitation against other women inmates.

That’s notwithstanding the fact that if one were truly interested in perpetuating sexual violence and exploitation, being sent to prison is the last outcome they want, they’re not committing crimes with the intent of getting into prison so they can commit more crimes!

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:08pm

ingalway wrote: »

And why is that? Is it because they are violent males with the potential to rape and even kill women? No woman would stand a chance if they chose to attack them. Also, extra staff have to be assigned to them 24/7. Resources are scarce enough without this nonsense.

They are violent individuals. I wouldn't expose anyone to them, and this is exactly the issue with Grufallux's "third place" option.

Barbie Kardashian is an extremely violent and disturbed individual. She should be kept separate from everyone no matter what prison she is in. Do you think it would be fair to house even a strong cis man in a cell with someone who has ripped off another person's eyelid? I know I wouldn't go to sleep with her around.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:10pm

Gatling wrote: »

They do ,

I don't believe we have laws to Keep an individual confined in isolation indefinitely .

I believe it breaches multiple human rights laws

All reports say they have no access to other female inmates. If you have another report that contradicts this please present it. Otherwise stop posting false information.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:13pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

. Otherwise stop posting false information.

What's part is false information exactly

One eyed Jack · 22-01-2021 8:13pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Indeed. That sounds like a precarious situation to me. As a female inmate, I’d be uneasy. I hate that we’ll probably have to wait for something bad to happen before something is done. Instead of trying to prevent based on what we know about male and female criminality and physiology.

Bad things happen in women’s prisons every day? What were you doing about it before now?

Sexual abuse is 'part and parcel' of prison life, with staff harassing female inmates in exchange for drugs, cigarettes and even early release, according to former prisoners.

Female ex-inmates talk about prison abuse

ingalway · 22-01-2021 8:15pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

All reports say they have no access to other female inmates. If you have another report that contradicts this please present it. Otherwise stop posting false information.

If they are in such isolation then why do they even need to be in a female prison? If they were in a male prison at least there is no potential opportunity to access vulnerable females and extra staff are not needed to mollycoddle them.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:15pm

Gatling wrote: »

What's part is false information exactly

Your claim that women in the prison face the threat of rape from trans inmates.

And your claim that they must have access to other women inmates based on what you believe are potential human rights violations.

How do you think someone who is kept separate from other women inmates at all times is a rape threat

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:17pm

ingalway wrote: »

If they are in such isolation then why do they even need to be in a female prison? If they were in a male prison at least there is no potential opportunity to access vulnerable females and extra staff are not needed to mollycoddle them.

They have a legal right to be housed in a womens prison and they have availed of that right. What you perceive of as their needs doesn't really come into it.

And again, they have no potential opportunity to access other women inmates.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:19pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Your claim that women in the prison face the threat of rape from trans inmates.

And what are you they don't despite several cases of if happening recently .

Ehhh ....

You cannot be held indefinitely in isolation dude what part is difficult to understand ,
If there is a threat of rape by a self identifying man in a women's prison surely the obvious route is to remove that threat

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:21pm

Gatling wrote: »

And what are you they don't despite several cases of if happening recently .

Ehhh ....

I don't even understand this sentence

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:22pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

I don't even understand this sentence

I cannot understand why ...

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 22-01-2021 8:25pm

ingalway wrote: »

If they are in such isolation then why do they even need to be in a female prison? If they were in a male prison at least there is no potential opportunity to access vulnerable females and extra staff are not needed to mollycoddle them.

Yeah, it seems to me that the safety of transgender women is taken deadly seriously whilst citing concerns for the safety of women is dismissed as bigotry or hysteria.

If a transgender prisoner can be so successfully isolated in the female estate, then why not in the male estate? That way, if security drops or is breached, all present are in the same biological strength bracket.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:28pm

Gatling wrote: »

And what are you they don't despite several cases of if happening recently .

Ehhh ....

You cannot be held indefinitely in isolation dude what part is difficult to understand ,
If there is a threat of rape by a self identifying man in a women's prison surely the obvious route is to remove that threat

Nobody said they were in isolation. Two individuals are kept separate at all times from the other female inmates. There is no suggestion of human rights breaches.

If the information we have confirmed (that they are kept separate at all times) is valued less than made up supposition (that there is a human rights breach and they will be given access to other female prisoners) then you have to wonder what kind of bias is at play here.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:33pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yeah, it seems to me that the safety of transgender women is taken deadly seriously whilst citing concerns for the safety of women is dismissed as bigotry or hysteria.

If a transgender prisoner can be so successfully isolated in the female estate, then why not in the male estate? That way, if security drops or is breached, all present are in the same biological strength bracket.

Decisions should not be based on unrealistic propositions.

Why not separate 60kg males from 120kg males? Why not build an extra wall around all current prisons in case the first wall is breached? What if a security lapse allows a rapist escape a male prison putting the lives of women living in the area at risk?

At some point a level of security has to deemed enough. These women have a legal right to be housed in a women's prison. There is security in place to make sure they don't have access to other women inmates.

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:36pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nobody said they were in isolation

Two individuals are kept separate at all times from the other female inmates.

Dude that's isolation

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:37pm

I'm curious as to this idea that even housing trans women and cis women in the same prison and kept separately is a danger.

You all seem very concerned about this.

But when we discussed JK Rowlings visit to Saughton prison nobody seemed all that concerned at a prison that houses both cis male and cis female prisoners.......

From Wikipedia; Edinburgh receives prisoners from the courts in Edinburgh, the Lothians and the Borders. The prison holds adult male and no longer holds under-21 prisoners (YOs) and also convicted prisoners serving under four years. The prison also holds a female population in its Ratho hall.

Only an issue when it comes to trans women it seems

ingalway · 22-01-2021 8:38pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

They have a legal right to be housed in a womens prison and they have availed of that right. What you perceive of as their needs doesn't really come into it.

And again, they have no potential opportunity to access other women inmates.

It's a bad day for justice, more so for women, when legal right amounts to no more than signing a form to declare you have magically changed sex.

Would you equally defend the right of a person to sign a form to say they were really born of a different race? Assigned Caucasian at birth - why would that be any less worthy in intersectional identity politics? Surely it should be Observed Caucasian at birth and that anyone should be free to later identify into their true race identity and not be restricted by what those ill informed doctors forced on you.

jam_mac_jam · 22-01-2021 8:38pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Bad things happen in women’s prisons every day? What were you doing about it before now?

Sexual abuse is 'part and parcel' of prison life, with staff harassing female inmates in exchange for drugs, cigarettes and even early release, according to former prisoners.

Female ex-inmates talk about prison abuse

That's a really depressing article. I had no idea it was so widespread with staff. You would assume with other inmates but not staff.

That's awful.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:40pm

Gatling wrote: »

Dude that's isolation

You may consider it isolation but it is not solitary confinement. There is nothing to indicate these women are in a situation which breaches their human rights.

Can you reference anything other than your own opinion on the meaning of the word isolation that would back up your claims?

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:42pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

The prison also holds a female population in its Ratho hall.

So does mount joy .

But there not Housed together . separate parts of the prison ,how difficult it that to understand

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:43pm

ingalway wrote: »

It's a bad day for justice, more so for women, when legal right amounts to no more than signing a form to declare you have magically changed sex.

Would you equally defend the right of a person to sign a form to say they were really born of a different race? Assigned Caucasian at birth - why would that be any less worthy in intersectional identity politics? Surely it should be Observed Caucasian at birth and that anyone should be free to later identify into their true race identity and not be restricted by what those ill informed doctors forced on you.

Where is race recorded at birth? What legal rights would be gained or lost by signing a form that declared your race? It would be quite bizarre for someone to legally change their race when there's no legal conception of race.

LLMMLL · 22-01-2021 8:45pm

Gatling wrote: »

So does mount joy .

But there not Housed together . separate parts of the prison ,how difficult it that to understand

What do you think they mean in the reports when they say the trans inantes are kept separate. Do you think it's a layer of clingfilm between the trans and cis inmates?.......

Gatling · 22-01-2021 8:47pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

What do you think they mean in the reports when they say the trans inantes are kept separate..

Isolated

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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