Suing overseas

Heat_Wave · 05-06-2019 12:43am #1

Can you bring a small claim against someone in Ireland from the UK? What is the law?

Peregrinus · 05-06-2019 2:27am

Don;t see why you couldn't, so long as you brought your claim in the Irish courts. Don't see why the law would be any different for a non-resident claimant than it would for a resident.

In general (subject to Brexit) you could bring your claim in the UK courts, if the claim has a connection with the UK, and then enforce your UK judgment in Ireland under EU mutual recognition principles. But I think the UK small claims process only allows you to sue UK residents, so you couldn't use the small claims process; you'd have to sue in the regular courts. And if a crash-out Brexit happened while your case was winding its way through the UK courts, you might end up with a difficult-to-enforce judgment. So best to sue in Ireland.

Heat_Wave · 05-06-2019 8:43am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Don;t see why you couldn't, so long as you brought your claim in the Irish courts. Don't see why the law would be any different for a non-resident claimant than it would for a resident.

In general (subject to Brexit) you could bring your claim in the UK courts, if the claim has a connection with the UK, and then enforce your UK judgment in Ireland under EU mutual recognition principles. But I think the UK small claims process only allows you to sue UK residents, so you couldn't use the small claims process; you'd have to sue in the regular courts. And if a crash-out Brexit happened while your case was winding its way through the UK courts, you might end up with a difficult-to-enforce judgment. So best to sue in Ireland.

The claimant is a resident in the UK and the defendant is a resident in Ireland. The claim is for less than £1k.

I cannot find any of this info online.

banie01 · 05-06-2019 9:44am

There is an EU wide small claims procedure.
More info available here.
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_small_claims-42-en.do

GM228 · 05-06-2019 10:27am

As stated above there is an EU Small Claims Procedure (EU SCP) for each member state (with the exception of Denmark). You generally apply to the court in your country of residence. In Ireland District Court Order 53B covers this.

For UK residents using the EU SCP see here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/713715/ex725-eng.pdf

Unlike here where there is a fixed €25 fee for the EU SCP the UK has a fee scale depending on the claim amount, see here:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/789201/ex50-eng.pdf

Heat_Wave · 06-06-2019 1:10am

Am I correct in saying that the claimant will need to initiate a small claim in the country which the defendant resides? If so, can this simply be done online, as in, the claimant doesn’t need to travel to the defendant’s home country?

Also, if the claimant is not entirely sure where the defendant lives, and sends registered post to multiple former addresses where the defendant once lived, and these were signed for by random tenants in the building, what happens?

Heat_Wave · 06-06-2019 1:14am

Also, can small claims be made against individuals, rather than consumers v businesses?

Credit Checker Moose · 06-06-2019 1:24am

The person suing initiates the procedure in their home country.

It is for consumer/business claims only.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/solving-disputes/european-small-claims-procedure/index_en.htm

Heat_Wave · 06-06-2019 8:35am

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

The person suing initiates the procedure in their home country.

It is for consumer/business claims only.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/solving-disputes/european-small-claims-procedure/index_en.htm

So there is no way to make a claim against an individual when both parties are merely private individuals (eg. Ex flatmate for outstanding rent)?

Peregrinus · 06-06-2019 8:46am

Heat_Wave wrote: »

So there is no way to make a claim against an individual when both parties are merely private individuals (eg. Ex flatmate for outstanding rent)?

No, all we've established is that the EU Small Claims Procedure is not the way to do that. That doesn't mean there's no way to do that.

You could, for example, sue in your own home courts and get a (presumably) undefended judgment. This is unlikely to cost very much. You can then enforce that through the courts in the country in which the defendant now resides.

The problem is that the costs of enforcement are likely to be substantial. There's quite a bit of work involved, and you won't be there to do it, and the taxpayers in either country are not likely to have an interest in paying to resolve what is essentially a private dispute.

So, bottom line; you can enforce this debt. But you'll need to think carefully about whether it makes economic sense for you to do so.

randomrb · 06-06-2019 12:49pm

Heat_Wave wrote: »

So there is no way to make a claim against an individual when both parties are merely private individuals (eg. Ex flatmate for outstanding rent)?

Were you subletting the property? Why is it your responsibility if they don't pay rent

Heat_Wave · 06-06-2019 9:32pm

randomrb wrote: »

Were you subletting the property? Why is it your responsibility if they don't pay rent

My ex-flatmates in the UK are claiming I owe them outstanding rent. They’ve sent registered post to my home in Ireland + my old address in the UK quoting articles that appear to be a template from the net. They are planning on going through the small claims court to recover approx £700, but according to this thread, it seems very unlikely they’ll get anywhere.

Carawaystick · 07-06-2019 12:29am

Heat_Wave wrote: »

My ex-flatmates in the UK are claiming I owe them outstanding rent. They’ve sent registered post to my home in Ireland + my old address in the UK quoting articles that appear to be a template from the net. They are planning on going through the small claims court to recover approx £700, but according to this thread, it seems very unlikely they’ll get anywhere.

Ireland is not overseas from the uk, it has a long and winding land border between the 2 states

Heat_Wave · 08-06-2019 8:20pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ireland is not overseas from the uk, it has a long and winding land border between the 2 states

I’m not sure that you are correct. The agency told me that they cannot even get to guarantors in the Irish State from the UK, and that’s for thousands of euros.

Credit Checker Moose · 08-06-2019 8:31pm

2 separate states, 2 separate legal systems. They might as well be thousands of KM apart.

Peregrinus · 10-06-2019 2:19am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ireland is not overseas from the uk, it has a long and winding land border between the 2 states

"Overseas" is a fairly standard shorthand term in the UK for "countries that are not the UK". It's wider than "foreign" because "overseas" includes UK possessions and terrritories that are not the UK but are also not foreign.

Heat_Wave · 15-07-2019 8:05pm

Update: Money Claims website have confirmed that their service is only for UK residents, however, they said the defendant (Ireland based) still has to respond to the claim, otherwise they receive an automatic injunction - huh?

They also said, the defendant must respond to the claim, and then they’ll pass it onto the claimants local court for them to handle.

This website seems like a bit of a joke. How does any of the above make any sense?

Peregrinus · 16-07-2019 1:57am

Generally the person who is bringing a claim in the courts will not point out problems or obstacles to the claim they are bringing, for obvious reasons. And if the party against whom the claim is brought does not bother to participate in the proceedings, contest the claim or point out the problems or obstacles then those problems or obstacles may never come to light, and the person who is bringing the claim may get what is known as "judgment in default of defence". Basically, A says B owes him a certain sum; B does not deny or dispute this - in fact says nothing at all; A gets judgment against B for that sum.

Heat_Wave · 16-07-2019 9:22am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Generally the person who is bringing a claim in the courts will not point out problems or obstacles to the claim they are bringing, for obvious reasons. And if the party against whom the claim is brought does not bother to participate in the proceedings, contest the claim or point out the problems or obstacles then those problems or obstacles may never come to light, and the person who is bringing the claim may get what is known as "judgment in default of defence". Basically, A says B owes him a certain sum; B does not deny or dispute this - in fact says nothing at all; A gets judgment against B for that sum.

So I assume there would be no need to go into enormous detail, and rather just state “defendant does not reside in the UK”?

Peregrinus · 16-07-2019 9:39am

Heat_Wave wrote: »

So I assume there would be no need to go into enormous detail, and rather just state “defendant does not reside in the UK”?

I don't know. You'd need to look at the precise claim being made against you, and the court in which it is being made, and the rules that govern that court. Your post #17 states that "Money Claims website have confirmed that their service is only for UK residents" but I have no idea who Money Claims are or what their connection to the proceedings against you might be, or whether what they mean is that they will only work for claimants who are resident in the UK, in which case they may not care where you are resident.

Suing overseas

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