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06-11-2019, 17:22   #1
aloooof
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Improving BER Rating

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Originally Posted by cruizer101 View Post
I'd say not really, looking at typical energy cost for 4 bed semi 150m^2 (that's a big enough size 4 bed) from the seai. D1 2600, B1 900, A1 280.
So you save 1500 a year getting D1 to B1 which should be achievable enough for reasonable money.
Get to A1 to save another 620 but how much will that cost.

Obviously you would need to know exact figures but I would think unless you are doing serious renovation anyway the payback will be quite long for getting up to A level.

Link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...YGXiyTJuL9y_UT
Apologies if this is off topic, but any ballpark ideas on what it may cost to get a D or E rated house up to B rating? I know it's "how long is a piece of string" territory, but any info you have would be much appreciated. (We're at the beginning of a process of renovation and don't know where to start, so all advice greatly accepted....)
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06-11-2019, 17:33   #2
Paul_Mc1988
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Originally Posted by aloooof View Post
Apologies if this is off topic, but any ballpark ideas on what it may cost to get a D or E rated house up to B rating? I know it's "how long is a piece of string" territory, but any info you have would be much appreciated. (We're at the beginning of a process of renovation and don't know where to start, so all advice greatly accepted....)
Insulation is the starting point. It's where most of the savings are made. Low power led lamps are next as they are cheap and long lasting. If the house is getting re-plumbed some good heating controls would be decent.
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06-11-2019, 18:27   #3
ZX7R
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Insulation is the starting point. It's where most of the savings are made. Low power led lamps are next as they are cheap and long lasting. If the house is getting re-plumbed some good heating controls would be decent.
As Paul said insulation is key upgraded burner to a condenser is vital and surprisingly proper vent covers are things that will jump your rating right up
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06-11-2019, 18:51   #4
Eric Cartman
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Originally Posted by aloooof View Post
Apologies if this is off topic, but any ballpark ideas on what it may cost to get a D or E rated house up to B rating? I know it's "how long is a piece of string" territory, but any info you have would be much appreciated. (We're at the beginning of a process of renovation and don't know where to start, so all advice greatly accepted....)
i think youd get diminishing returns trying to go that high and spend mad money. getting an old house to a C1 is quite reasonable and achievable, once you start going into B or A territory youre realistically talking new builds.
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06-11-2019, 18:56   #5
MicktheMan
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Originally Posted by aloooof View Post
Apologies if this is off topic, but any ballpark ideas on what it may cost to get a D or E rated house up to B rating? I know it's "how long is a piece of string" territory, but any info you have would be much appreciated. (We're at the beginning of a process of renovation and don't know where to start, so all advice greatly accepted....)
The first place to start is to understand the difference between the following 2 questions:

1. do you want to get a better BER on paper (say from E to B)?
2. do you want to make a cold house affordably comfortable?

On question 1, you can spend quite a lot of money "upgrading" the house so that, on paper, it will be a "B" rated house but in reality it performs like a "D" and cools down rapidly as soon as the heating is turned off for example. The main reason for this underperformance is the over-reliance on box ticking and not enough effort going into understanding the reason on why the house was cold in the first place. Also, toooooo much emphasis on insulation but only paying lip service to airtightness/ventilation.

On question 2, you first need to understand what is going on in the house by testing/surveying it for the 3 forms of heat transfer. Only after this testing is complete should intelligent and targeted upgrade measures be taken which, in general, can have little to do with major insulation or heating upgrades.

I recommend anyone starting out on a renovation to consider these two questions.
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06-11-2019, 19:05   #6
MicktheMan
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Originally Posted by Paul_Mc1988 View Post
Insulation is the starting point. It's where most of the savings are made.
To improve the BER, yes; to improve the comfort levels & reduce actual heating costs, in general probably not.
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06-11-2019, 20:32   #7
Cuddlesworth
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I don't necessarily disagree but I think the current price differential between new A rated houses and older homes in the same area that would benefit from modernisation doesn't currently match the cost of the work needed to bring the older home up to that standard.
Like others have said, when comparing older houses to new builds, the older houses usually have other advantages for comparison.

For me, in the D18 market 2-3 years ago houses in estates built in the 70's and 80's were achieving very similar prices regardless of modernisation or money spent on them. From what I can tell, the price margin on those propertys is now increasing and the older colder houses are sitting there for much longer.
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07-11-2019, 08:41   #8
Pheonix10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicktheMan View Post
The first place to start is to understand the difference between the following 2 questions:

1. do you want to get a better BER on paper (say from E to B)?
2. do you want to make a cold house affordably comfortable?

On question 1, you can spend quite a lot of money "upgrading" the house so that, on paper, it will be a "B" rated house but in reality it performs like a "D" and cools down rapidly as soon as the heating is turned off for example. The main reason for this underperformance is the over-reliance on box ticking and not enough effort going into understanding the reason on why the house was cold in the first place. Also, toooooo much emphasis on insulation but only paying lip service to airtightness/ventilation.

On question 2, you first need to understand what is going on in the house by testing/surveying it for the 3 forms of heat transfer. Only after this testing is complete should intelligent and targeted upgrade measures be taken which, in general, can have little to do with major insulation or heating upgrades.

I recommend anyone starting out on a renovation to consider these two questions.
Great post. Curious about what would typically be the top 3 things in terms of improving B and reducing heating costs.
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07-11-2019, 09:30   #9
Bluefoam
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Originally Posted by Pheonix10 View Post
Great post. Curious about what would typically be the top 3 things in terms of improving B and reducing heating costs.
  1. airtightness
  2. insulation
  3. efficient heating
in that order
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07-11-2019, 11:59   #10
Sleepy
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Originally Posted by MicktheMan View Post
On question 2, you first need to understand what is going on in the house by testing/surveying it for the 3 forms of heat transfer.
Would you, or anyone else, have a ballpark cost for getting these tests done on a early 20th century terrace house of circa 100sqm? Any links to those providing the testing would be good (or even the correct phrase to google, my searches just return BER surveyors).

The air-tightness /ventilation question is an interesting topic for me as our house is a mass concrete build with no wall insulation (and limited scope for adding any due to conservation status on the exterior) and no DPC.
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07-11-2019, 12:01   #11
mcbert
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Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
Would you, or anyone else, have a ballpark cost for getting these tests done on a early 20th century terrace house of circa 100sqm? Any links to those providing the testing would be good (or even the correct phrase to google, my searches just return BER surveyors).

The air-tightness /ventilation question is an interesting topic for me as our house is a mass concrete build with no wall insulation (and limited scope for adding any due to conservation status on the exterior) and no DPC.

Try googling for 'domestic heat survey' or 'thermal imaging survey'
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07-11-2019, 13:02   #12
MicktheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheonix10 View Post
Great post. Curious about what would typically be the top 3 things in terms of improving B and reducing heating costs.

1. Air tightness, air tightness, air tightness
2. Ventilation
3. Heating system appraisal, especially controls
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07-11-2019, 13:05   #13
MicktheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
Would you, or anyone else, have a ballpark cost for getting these tests done on a early 20th century terrace house of circa 100sqm? Any links to those providing the testing would be good (or even the correct phrase to google, my searches just return BER surveyors).

The air-tightness /ventilation question is an interesting topic for me as our house is a mass concrete build with no wall insulation (and limited scope for adding any due to conservation status on the exterior) and no DPC.
Ballpark between 4 and 600 euro to include blower door, thermal imaging and full written report.

Google "Heat loss survey"
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07-11-2019, 13:56   #14
gwakamoley
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I've recently moved in to an end-of-terrace 60 year old house. It's rating was advertised as F, bordering on G.

The first job we did was replace the old oil boiler with a modern gas boiler, and get modern rads with TRVs and a proper controls system. This made a huge difference to how easy the house is to keep at a nice temperature. The BER rating is now on the upper end of E.

And you know what, it's such a comfortable house to heat. The heating only comes on for a while to get up to temperature and rarely comes on again for the evening because the house is actually well insulated, but because the BER assessment has so many assumptions and estimations about old houses you'd swear from it's rating that it's an ice-box.

One thing that's really dragging down our rating is there's a garage attached to the house which is being included in the rating despite it being non-habitable because it could be a "utility room". Insulating that would bring us up to a D2. That sums up how much of a box ticking exercise the BER is. The lawnmower would be delighted with the extra heat.

Personally I find our E rated house more comfortable than the stuffy A rated houses of others people I know.
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07-11-2019, 14:03   #15
Cyrus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwakamoley View Post
I've recently moved in to an end-of-terrace 60 year old house. It's rating was advertised as F, bordering on G.

The first job we did was replace the old oil boiler with a modern gas boiler, and get modern rads with TRVs and a proper controls system. This made a huge difference to how easy the house is to keep at a nice temperature. The BER rating is now on the upper end of E.

And you know what, it's such a comfortable house to heat. The heating only comes on for a while to get up to temperature and rarely comes on again for the evening because the house is actually well insulated, but because the BER assessment has so many assumptions and estimations about old houses you'd swear from it's rating that it's an ice-box.

One thing that's really dragging down our rating is there's a garage attached to the house which is being included in the rating despite it being non-habitable because it could be a "utility room". Insulating that would bring us up to a D2. That sums up how much of a box ticking exercise the BER is. The lawnmower would be delighted with the extra heat.

Personally I find our E rated house more comfortable than the stuffy A rated houses of others people I know.
stuffy a rated houses? what do you mean?
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