Going to be late for a flight? Call the gardai

micosoft · 10-10-2015 8:24pm

katydid wrote: »

Neither am I, so...

Yes. Yes you did.

katydid · 10-10-2015 9:38pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Including chauffeuring pregnant women to hospital?

That is a response to an emergency. Not a jaunt to the airport to catch a flight.

katydid · 10-10-2015 9:39pm

micosoft wrote: »

You said less then a couple of posts ago:

I quoted the exact section of the constitution which explicitly states the Government represents the country:

I'm sure it's tiresome not only being continuously wrong but forgetting what you said mere posts ago.

That article doesn't say what you claim it says.

oscarBravo · 10-10-2015 10:05pm

katydid wrote: »

That is a response to an emergency. Not a jaunt to the airport to catch a flight.

OK, so the story so far: there are only two classes of citizen - the President, who represents the country, and ordinary citizens, who don't represent the country, even if they are government ministers on their way to EU meetings. The President, by virtue of representing the country, gets to demand a lift from AGS; not only does no other citizen get to get a lift from AGS, but AGS are behaving disgracefully by giving a non-Presidential citizen a lift, because their job is to be the State Security Service, which job apparently involves ambulance duty.

Fair enough.

katydid · 10-10-2015 10:18pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, so the story so far: there are only two classes of citizen - the President, who represents the country, and ordinary citizens, who don't represent the country, even if they are government ministers on their way to EU meetings. The President, by virtue of representing the country, gets to demand a lift from AGS; not only does no other citizen get to get a lift from AGS, but AGS are behaving disgracefully by giving a non-Presidential citizen a lift, because their job is to be the State Security Service, which job apparently involves ambulance duty.

Fair enough.

When did I say the President should get a lift to the airport to catch a plane? YOU brought up the president, in relation to his security detail.

It has got to the point of ridiculousness, when you insist on claiming I said things I didn't.

micosoft · 11-10-2015 2:13am

katydid wrote: »

That article doesn't say what you claim it says.

I actually posted the specific line in our constitution given you don't seem to have the ability to read it yourself.

Again you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by katydid View Post
The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

And I posted the specific article in the constitution which explicitly says it does represent the country. I've even underlined it and stuff but it's about as simple as it gets.

Article 29 of our Constitution

Quote:
4 1° The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

2° For the purpose of the exercise of any executive function of the State in or in connection with its external relations, the Government may to such extent and subject to such conditions, if any, as may be determined by law, avail of or adopt any organ, instrument, or method of procedure used or adopted for the like purpose by the members of any group or league of nations with which the State is or becomes associated for the purpose of international co-operation in matters of common concern.

There is no possibility of confusion here. You posted something untrue. I corrected it.

What could it possibly mean other than what it says pray tell?

micosoft · 11-10-2015 2:16am

katydid wrote: »

That is a response to an emergency. Not a jaunt to the airport to catch a flight.

But where is the protocol or law directing the Gardai to undertake such and action?

micosoft · 11-10-2015 2:17am

katydid wrote: »

When did I say the President should get a lift to the airport to catch a plane? YOU brought up the president, in relation to his security detail.

It has got to the point of ridiculousness, when you insist on claiming I said things I didn't.

Oscarbravo didn't claim that the President should get a lift to the airport to catch a plane. You actually quoted the text. Nothing in it refers to a plane. The irony is strong with this one....

katydid · 11-10-2015 12:48pm

micosoft wrote: »

Oscarbravo didn't claim that the President should get a lift to the airport to catch a plane. You actually quoted the text. Nothing in it refers to a plane. The irony is strong with this one....

He said "The President, by virtue of representing the country, gets to demand a lift from AGS"

Just because he didn't mention a plane doesn't mean that the context of his hypothetical "demand" is clear.

The irony is strong on this one...

katydid · 11-10-2015 12:52pm

micosoft wrote: »

I actually posted the specific line in our constitution given you don't seem to have the ability to read it yourself.

Again you said:

And I posted the specific article in the constitution which explicitly says it does represent the country. I've even underlined it and stuff but it's about as simple as it gets.

There is no possibility of confusion here. You posted something untrue. I corrected it.

What could it possibly mean other than what it says pray tell?

I'm not a bit confused. Nowhere in what you cited does it say that the government represents the country. It says the government is empowered to make decisions on behalf of the country in an international context - that is not the same as representing the country on the international stage.

The president represents the Irish people in a symbolic, non-political way, at home and abroad. Not acts on behalf of them, but represents them.

micosoft · 11-10-2015 4:00pm

katydid wrote: »

I'm not a bit confused. Nowhere in what you cited does it say that the government represents the country. It says the government is empowered to make decisions on behalf of the country in an international context - that is not the same as representing the country on the international stage.

The president represents the Irish people in a symbolic, non-political way, at home and abroad. Not acts on behalf of them, but represents them.

What I cited is called the constitution. You should read it some day. And it explicitly says exactly that.

So just to be clear you are saying that the President represents us in Europe. Comes back. The "Government" of yours makes a decision. Then the President is sent off to represent us in signing it? Have I got that right?

represent
rɛprɪˈzɛnt/Submit
verb
1.
be entitled or appointed to act or speak for (someone), especially in an official capacity.

Given your difficulty with written English lets move on to pictures and see if that works:

What do you think the Taoiseach of the time is doing? Where is the president?

What is the Taoiseach doing here? Representing Mayo constituency? I didn't think the Mayo flag looked the same as a Tricolour.

And here is Dare Murphy representing us at the Council of Europe meeting

So we've now established you don't know what the Gardai do, what the Government do, what the President does, and what the word "represent" means. That's an exceptional list!

katydid · 11-10-2015 4:07pm

micosoft wrote: »

What I cited is called the constitution. You should read it some day. And it explicitly says exactly that.

So just to be clear you are saying that the President represents us in Europe. Comes back. The "Government" of yours makes a decision. Then the President is sent off to represent us in signing it? Have I got that right?

Given your difficulty with written English lets move on to pictures and see if that works:

What do you think the Taoiseach of the time is doing? Where is the president?

What is the Taoiseach doing here? Representing Mayo constituency? I didn't think the Mayo flag looked the same as a Tricolour.

And here is Dare Murphy representing us at the Council of Europe meeting

So we've now established you don't know what the Gardai do, what the Government do, what the President does, and what the word "represent" means. That's an exceptional list!

We know what the constitution says. I know what it means. I have done my best to explain to you the difference between the representative role of the President as a symbol of the people of Ireland and the role of the government as acting on behalf of the people of Ireland.
I have also done my best to explain to you that the Gardaí's role is not the chauffeuring hither and yon of politicians who are late for flights - that their role is to protect and serve the public, something those Gardaí would have been unable to do had a crime or an emergency occurred during their jaunt to the airport.

It's not my fault you don't understand. Despite my having provided you with the relevant information - proof, for example, that the security of the state is part of the remit of the Garda force, something you seemed unaware of, you continue in your original delusion.

There are none so blind, etc.

micosoft · 11-10-2015 9:47pm

katydid wrote: »

We know what the constitution says. I know what it means. I have done my best to explain to you the difference between the representative role of the President as a symbol of the people of Ireland and the role of the government as acting on behalf of the people of Ireland.
I have also done my best to explain to you that the Gardaí's role is not the chauffeuring hither and yon of politicians who are late for flights - that their role is to protect and serve the public, something those Gardaí would have been unable to do had a crime or an emergency occurred during their jaunt to the airport.

There are none so blind, etc.

You did nothing of the sort and are now changing the words you used. You've gone from:

katydid wrote: »

Originally Posted by katydid View Post
The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

to

katydid wrote: »

I have done my best to explain to you the difference between the representative role of the President as a symbol of the people of Ireland and the role of the government as acting on behalf of the people of Ireland.

So answer the question I asked. What are the Government Taoiseach and Ministers doing in the pictures above?

You might also not quote images.

katydid · 11-10-2015 9:57pm

micosoft wrote: »

You did nothing of the sort and are now changing the words you used. You've gone from:

to

So answer the question I asked. What are the Government Taoiseach and Ministers doing in the pictures above?

You might also not quote images.

They are acting on behalf of the people of Ireland. They are not the symbolic representatives of the people of Ireland.

If you want to waste my time with images, I'm happy to waste yours.

oscarBravo · 11-10-2015 10:54pm

katydid wrote: »

They are acting on behalf of the people of Ireland. They are not the symbolic representatives of the people of Ireland.

OK, so the picture is getting clearer: acting on behalf of the people doesn't earn you a lift to the airport, but being a symbolic figurehead means you get a permanent army escort.

You really are just making your argument up as you go along, aren't you?

katydid · 11-10-2015 10:57pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, so the picture is getting clearer: acting on behalf of the people doesn't earn you a lift to the airport, but being a symbolic figurehead means you get a permanent army escort.

You really are just making your argument up as you go along, aren't you?

Since the President of Ireland has a permanent detail and junior ministers don't, the facts sort of speak for themselves.

Facts. No matter how much you waffle, the facts are the facts.

micosoft · 11-10-2015 11:08pm

katydid wrote: »

They are acting on behalf of the people of Ireland. They are not the symbolic representatives of the people of Ireland.

If you want to waste my time with images, I'm happy to waste yours.

They are "acting on behalf of the people of Ireland". i.e. they are representing the people of Ireland as detailed in the constitution of Ireland.

The president is head of state. Not some mystical symbolic representative of the people of Ireland. And has no constitutional power to represent the Irish People in any capacity abroad, and specifically no right to sign a treaty on our behalf as that right is with the Government and Government alone.

True. Your ideas of how this country is governed are a waste of time but it's been amusing seeing how deep a hole somebody could actually dig over the Guards giving a Minister a lift to the Airport.

oscarBravo · 11-10-2015 11:09pm

katydid wrote: »

Facts. No matter how much you waffle, the facts are the facts.

Funny you should talk about facts: you demanded that someone show you a protocol earlier, and when you were asked for one in turn, you retreated into bluster.

One thing this idiotic little storm in a teacup has proved: it's impossible to have an intelligent opposition in this country. Everyone is so busy working themselves into a Liveline-esque seething frenzy over every mickey mouse manufactured scandal, it's impossible to take any legitimate criticism of the government seriously. The boy has cried wolf far, far too often.

katydid · 11-10-2015 11:12pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Funny you should talk about facts: you demanded that someone show you a protocol earlier, and when you were asked for one in turn, you retreated into bluster.

One thing this idiotic little storm in a teacup has proved: it's impossible to have an intelligent opposition in this country. Everyone is so busy working themselves into a Liveline-esque seething frenzy over every mickey mouse manufactured scandal, it's impossible to take any legitimate criticism of the government seriously. The boy has cried wolf far, far too often.

I didn't demand anything. I knew no such protocol existed; hence my question, in order to prove this.

Because people don't kow tow to your false notions of what the role of our police force and head of state are, they are not "intelligent". Yep, that makes sense.

micosoft · 12-10-2015 1:04am

katydid wrote: »

I didn't demand anything. I knew no such protocol existed; hence my question, in order to prove this.

Because people don't kow tow to your false notions of what the role of our police force and head of state are, they are not "intelligent". Yep, that makes sense.

Luckily we have a written constitution to establish what "notions" are correct and what notions are balderdash.
In two sentences you declare that you didn't know of any such protocol but then declare the other posters "notions" were false. Can you explain how that makes sense?

oscarBravo · 12-10-2015 9:29am

katydid wrote: »

I didn't demand anything. I knew no such protocol existed; hence my question, in order to prove this.

Your question also demonstrated your belief that such protocols are required; hence my followup question, which you ducked.

So let's try again: given that you've demonstrated - yet again - your belief that a "protocol" must exist before AGS are permitted to do something, can you point to the protocol for bringing pregnant women to hospital?

Going to be late for a flight? Call the gardai

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