European Super League - plans announced

Cookiemunster · 28-10-2020 3:19pm

CSF wrote: »

Aren’t you agreeing with me?

Sorry, I took you up wrong.

Cookiemunster · 28-10-2020 3:29pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think people are reading the bigger picture. Once a league is set up it creates the template and increases the power moves.

Of course the league will lose money in the first few years, if you have one or 2 big clubs and then teams from smaller leagues. Even the IPL in cricket lost money in the first few years.

If Barcelona, Athletic Bilbao, Monaco and then big population markets like Ukraine, Russia, Turkey and Middle East jump, the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Juventus will start manoeuvring in their own leagues for power. This will create a panic from the mid to high ranked clubs in their own leagues. The likes of Everton, Lazio, Valencia will see this as their one opportunity to make it into a league. These are the clubs that wouldn't be big enough to get into a European Super League if all of the big clubs jumped at once but would see it as their one opportunity to make it. They will become absolutely irrelevant if the big clubs in their leagues leave. Once the dominos start falling, the whole thing falls apart.

It won't be this shiny big league of the all of the elite at first, it will be a grower. But after 3-4 years the true shape of the league will take place.

Think of the PDC in darts and the BDO. The PDC in the first couple of years wasn't much. The bulk of the talent was still in the BDO but they PDC had a handful of big names to keep it going. The superior structure for the players (the owners in football) was what won through.

European football, is in no way comparable to darts or the IPL. Your theory has no basis in the reality. If there is no money in the first 3-4 years, the league and the clubs will go bankrupt.

And again people want to see the elite clubs playing each other. That's where the TV market and the sponsorship money is. Neutral fans won't pay to see Zenit play Besiktas.

And you're also living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that Barcelona won't continue to play in La Liga in the event of Catalan independence (something that's not going to happen anytime soon either).

breezy1985 · 28-10-2020 3:43pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

European football, is in no way comparable to darts or the IPL. Your theory has no basis in the reality. If there is no money in the first 3-4 years, the league and the clubs will go bankrupt.

And again people want to see the elite clubs playing each other. That's where the TV market and the sponsorship money is. Neutral fans won't pay to see Zenit play Besiktas.

And you're also living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that Barcelona won't continue to play in La Liga in the event of Catalan independence (something that's not going to happen anytime soon either).

The Spanish government will use it as a scare tactic but it wouldn't actually happen that they would leave. Closest is the B team or an affiliate team would be set up for a Catalan league.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 2:30pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/european-super-league-five-english-clubs-sign-up-to-breakaway-league-in-challenge-to-uefa-plans-xks8jdxtm

European Super League: Five English clubs sign up to breakaway league in challenge to UEFA plans
Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur all agree to plan

Five English clubs are among 11 European teams who have signed up to a breakaway Super League in an extraordinary development on the eve of Uefa’s announcement of a new Champions League format.
Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur have signed up to the breakaway plan with only Manchester City among the Big Six yet to do so, sources with knowledge of the development have told The Times.
The Super League development is a direct challenge to Uefa which is to announce its new 36-team Champions League format on Monday, to come into force from 2024. The European governing body had thought it had seen off the threat of a breakaway but is now involved in urgent talks with other football bodies about the new development.
Uefa had succeeded in winning the support of the European Club Association (ECA) board and the European Leagues but it emerged today that the Super League threat had been revived with the ECA chairman Andrea Agnelli, also the Juventus president, appearing to throw his hat in with the breakaway clubs led by Manchester United and Real Madrid.
Other members of the ECA board, who had agreed to the new Champions League format, and Uefa officials have attempted to contact Agnelli since Saturday evening but one source said he “has gone off the radar”.

Uefa insiders insist they will press ahead with the announcement for the new-look Champions League which will see clubs playing 10 group matches instead of six.
If the Super League clubs do not back down then the dispute is likely to end up in courts given that Uefa and Fifa have promised to ban any clubs and players who take part in breakaway competitions from their tournaments such as the Euros and the World Cup.
The Times revealed in January that a proposal document showed founder members of a proposed European Super League would be offered up to 350million euros (£310million) each to join the competition.
There would be among 15 permanent founding members and five other clubs, who would qualify on an annual basis. They would be split into two groups of 10 and play between 18 and 23 European matches a season.

The Super League proposals include:
- The 15 founder clubs sharing an initial 3.5billion (£3.1billion) euro “infrastructure grant” ranging from £310million to £89million per club which can be spent on stadiums, training facilities or “to replace lost stadium-related revenues due to Covid-19”.
- The format would see two groups of 10 clubs who play home and away, with the top four from each group going through to two-legged quarter-finals, semi-finals and a one-legged final.
- Matches would be midweek and clubs would still play in domestic leagues
- Clubs would have rights to show four matches a season on their own the digital platforms across the world
- Income from TV and sponsorship would favour the founding clubs: 32.5% of the pot would be shared equally between the 15 clubs, and another 32.5% between all Super League clubs including the five qualifiers
- 20% of the pot would be merit money “distributed in the same manner as the current English Premier League merit-based system” according to where clubs finish in the competition or group if they don’t make the knock-out stage
- The remaining 15% would a “commercial share based on club awareness”
- A cap of 55% of revenues permitted to be spent on salaries and transfers (net)
- A ‘Financial Sustainability Group’ would monitor clubs’ spending
The emergence of the written proposals led football’s authorities to take unified action to combat the threat. A Super League would be disastrous for the Champions League which relies on the glamour of the top clubs to attract broadcasters.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 2:41pm

https://twitter.com/MikeKeegan_DM/status/1383774740033142797?s=19

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 2:42pm

What an embarrassing way for clubs like Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal to cover their own problems and complete failure of a season by joining a different tournament instead of the Champions League.

Should be booted out of the Premier League altogether if it happens and stop any players taking part playing for their national teams.

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 2:53pm

Morrison J wrote: »

What an embarrassing way for clubs like Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal to cover their own problems and complete failure of a season by joining a different tournament instead of the Champions League.

Should be booted out of the Premier League altogether if it happens and stop any players taking part playing for their national teams.

:rolleyes: so how does that line apply to Real Madrid for example?

celt262 · 18-04-2021 2:56pm

Good to see City showing good ethics and keeping out of this farce. By all means a proper club.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 3:08pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

:rolleyes: so how does that line apply to Real Madrid for example?

Well, they're following the money. An upper mid-table premier league club makes the same tv money as a Barcelona/Real Madrid. Premier League is another animal altogether and those big clubs want a piece of the pie.

It's all stemming from greed. I don't understand why any fan would want this. If you're a Liverpool fan for example, are you happy to just throw out a tradition like their rivalry with Everton so they can play Juventus four times a season? Sounds grim and will get stale very quick.

Interesting it's only English, Spanish and Italian teams by the sounds of it.

https://twitter.com/LatourBertrand/status/1383773449655492616?s=19

Guy:Incognito · 18-04-2021 3:12pm

celt262 wrote: »

Good to see City showing good ethics and keeping out of this farce. By all means a proper club.

Its amazing what a cap on spending will do to a clubs decision making..............

bennyl10 · 18-04-2021 3:29pm

celt262 wrote: »

Good to see City showing good ethics and keeping out of this farce. By all means a proper club.

Ah yes they’re doing it for the good of the game

Of course they are

.G. · 18-04-2021 3:31pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Well, they're following the money. An upper mid-table premier league club makes the same tv money as a Barcelona/Real Madrid. Premier League is another animal altogether and those big clubs want a piece of the pie.

It's all stemming from greed. I don't understand why any fan would want this. If you're a Liverpool fan for example, are you happy to just throw out a tradition like their rivalry with Everton so they can play Juventus four times a season? Sounds grim and will get stale very quick.

Interesting it's only English, Spanish and Italian teams by the sounds of it.

https://twitter.com/LatourBertrand/status/1383773449655492616?s=19

It's a replacement for the champions league not the premier league.

I'd be totally against it though.

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 3:32pm

I wonder where they'll get the officials from given that UEFA will bar accredited members.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 3:36pm

.G. wrote: »

It's a replacement for the champions league not the premier league.

I'd be totally against it though.

I know but I think we all know this is just one step towards an overall goal of making a european league. They want to American-ize it as much as they can and keep all that tv money between themselves.

Kiith · 18-04-2021 3:36pm

So maybe Spurs will get into the Champions League next year afterall? :pac:

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 3:41pm

Spurs, Everton, West Ham and Liverpool Man City!

~Rebel~ · 18-04-2021 3:56pm

So Man City have since backed it too.

PSG and Bayern out though. That probably kills it.

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 3:59pm

Leipzig might fancy an invite

Agent Coulson · 18-04-2021 4:00pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

So Man City have since backed it too.

PSG and Bayern out though. That probably kills it.

Teams that probably can't hide the 3rd party payments to bulk up players wages off the books that would fit into the 55% transfers & wages to revenue.

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 4:05pm

Chairman: Florentino Perez [Real Madrid]
Vice-Chairman: Stan Kroenke [Arsenal]
Vice-Chairman: Andrea Agnelli [Juventus]
Vice-Chairman: John W. Henry [Liverpool]
Vice-Chairman: Joel Glazer [Manchester United]

.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 4:09pm

Am sure this is all a game of chess to see who gives in first but kicking teams out of their domestic leagues looks like a definite possibility and the right move.

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1383772127434743814?s=19

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 4:10pm

Given you're a fan of the NFL (Washington Redskins (or whatever they are called now) closed shop why such attitude from you?

fyfe79 · 18-04-2021 4:11pm

Morrison J wrote: »

What an embarrassing way for clubs like Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal to cover their own problems and complete failure of a season by joining a different tournament instead of the Champions League.

Should be booted out of the Premier League altogether if it happens and stop any players taking part playing for their national teams.

Do you think discussions on this have only been taking place over the last few months? It's been going on years and nothing to do with how any team is performing this season. It's the bigger clubs looking to get what they perceive to be their fair share of the pot. Incidently, why didn't you highlight the other two English teams? What's their motivation for signing up for the new league considering they're both having successful seasons?

I don't want it to happen, btw. Would be even more diluted than the expansion of the European Cup from domestic league winners only to what the CL is today.

plibige · 18-04-2021 4:17pm

Neither this or the proposed changes to the champions league are good things, not for the fans anyway.

I don't even like the way the champions league format is now (and I think many others would agree).

Obviously we aren't going to go back to the European Cup days, too much money to be made. But all this stuff just feels soulless

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 4:19pm

https://twitter.com/Lawton_Times/status/1383799566361718784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1383799566361718784%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

If the "big 6" are forced to leave that kills the PL as a global interest league so hardly seems likely.

machiavellianme · 18-04-2021 4:21pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Am sure this is all a game of chess to see who gives in first but kicking teams out of their domestic leagues looks like a definite possibility and the right move.

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1383772127434743814?s=19

How many people would watch a Premier league season with no Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal, etc?
Excluding them from their national league would be a huge own goal by the local organisations.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 4:22pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Given you're a fan of the NFL (Washington Redskins (or whatever they are called now) closed shop why such attitude from you?

The NFL was founded a 100 years ago and was made up of teams who only played in tiny regional leagues at the time. It's totally different. They also have the infrastructure in place with the draft and salary cap that retains some sort of competitive parity.

But yeah, It is no surprise to me that of the 6 English clubs involved, 3 have American ownership. They have never understood the concept of relegation, and this gets rid of it whilst ensuring clubs on the up like West Ham and Leicester don't steal revenue from them by purely playing better than them over the course of a season. That's all this is about realistically.

Guy:Incognito · 18-04-2021 4:23pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

So Man City have since backed it too.

PSG and Bayern out though. That probably kills it.

Even if they did hold out beyond the start of it , I can't see them not joining soon after.

A cl of just psg and Bayern would get old fast

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 4:24pm

fyfe79 wrote: »

Do you think discussions on this have only been taking place over the last few months? It's been going on years and nothing to do with how any team is performing this season. It's the bigger clubs looking to get what they perceive to be their fair share of the pot. Incidently, why didn't you highlight the other two English teams? What's their motivation for signing up for the new league considering they're both having successful seasons?

I don't want it to happen, btw. Would be even more diluted than the expansion of the European Cup from domestic league winners only to what the CL is today.

No I don't but I definitely think recent events like Leicester winning the league has greatly accelerated things. The big clubs are under pressure to maintain their status and instead of focusing on improving themselves and winning more games they're moving the goalposts on the like of Leicester. Just makes a mockery of competition.

RoryMac · 18-04-2021 4:26pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

A cl of just psg and Bayern would get old fast

As would a super league with the same teams every year

dreamers75 · 18-04-2021 4:27pm

https://twitter.com/skysports_bryan/status/1383798916387270664

https://twitter.com/tancredipalmeri/status/1383801772381138948

Guy:Incognito · 18-04-2021 4:28pm

RoryMac wrote: »

As would a super league with the same teams every year

Agreed , which is why I don't like leagues with no relegation.

bennyl10 · 18-04-2021 4:29pm

Not much of a real threat from the PL

Without the top 6 their revenue drops to Nil

Richard Hillman · 18-04-2021 4:30pm

If the PL are releasing statements then this look like the real deal

Agent Coulson · 18-04-2021 4:30pm

The Premier League board sh1tting it that they will lose there own cash cow and huge wages.

SKY and BT and Worldwide TV companies won't be paying billions for rights without those clubs.

Guy:Incognito · 18-04-2021 4:31pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

Not much of a real threat from the PL

Without the top 6 their revenue drops to Nil

Tinge of irony with them threatening clubs not to join a breakaway league

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 4:31pm

machiavellianme wrote: »

How many people would watch a Premier league season with no Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal, etc?
Excluding them from their national league would be a huge own goal by the local organisations.

There are still fans of clubs outside of the top 6. They can also put restrictions in place like you see in Irish rugby. You have to play in your domestic league in order to play for your country.
Some players will stay put and some will chase the money.

There'll be a big backlash from fans who actually go to games in the UK I'd imagine. This new league is clearly made mainly for US and Asian fans who don't attend games but bring big TV money. Like to think most of the hardcore in the UK will be able to see through that and still support their local team. Really don't see the domestic leagues crumbling to unwatchable territory overnight though.

Richard Hillman · 18-04-2021 4:38pm

PSG and Bayern will be walking away from the Champions League money if they don't go with it. All contracts will be null and void if the elite don't participate next season. You'll have a watered down version with decent but not great money that keeps them going.

It will be interesting to see how the Super League TV deal will work. Its going to be absolutely cataclysmic. TV channels may jump on minor coverage but this type of stuff would only be afforded by Amazon or Google. It will probably be a lot cheaper than Sky or the others.

bennyl10 · 18-04-2021 4:39pm

Morrison J wrote: »

There are still fans of clubs outside of the top 6. They can also put restrictions in place like you see in Irish rugby. You have to play in your domestic league in order to play for your country.
Some players will stay put and some will chase the money.

There'll be a big backlash from fans who actually go to games in the UK I'd imagine. This new league is clearly made mainly for US and Asian fans who don't attend games but bring big TV money. Like to think most of the hardcore in the UK will be able to see through that and still support their local team. Really don't see the domestic leagues crumbling to unwatchable territory overnight though.

There’s not enough tv eyes without the big 6 for sky or BT to pay anywhere near the money they are

They’ll just pay for the super league. And then the PL is in trouble

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 4:39pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The Premier League board sh1tting it that they will lose there own cash cow and huge wages.

SKY and BT and Worldwide TV companies won't be paying billions for rights without those clubs.

and this might be why the ESL are moving now.

https://www.cityam.com/why-the-premier-league-tv-rights-bubble-really-might-be-about-to-burst-this-time/

Thursday 18 March 2021

The Premier League TV rights for 2022 to 2025 will go under the hammer in the next few months. The outcome of that process could put the competition’s very existence at risk.

In 2018, the UK segment of the Premier League TV rights sold for £4.5bn, down from a £5.1bn high in 2015. The rights for the next three years are likely to demand a much lower figure. An increase in the value of overseas rights offset the fall in domestic packages last time, but with the global market in decline there is no guarantee of that again.

There are already murmurings of a breakaway European Super League by the six biggest clubs which could easily resurface.

A failure to secure the cash Premier League clubs expect and rely upon could be the catalyst to make this happen.

The Premier League will need to think carefully on how it packages and sells the rights to maximize value for its member clubs.

Covid has changed many business models. Viewers, while desperate to return to live sport, have got used to watching televised games.

Could we see, for example, Premier League TV rights packages sold by member clubs to their supporter bases for all their away games? *

All of this poses another question. What future does the Premier League as a body have if clubs revert to either selling their own rights or forming a breakaway European Super League?

* ESL will allow club channels to show 4 games a season.

bennyl10 · 18-04-2021 4:46pm

Mail reporting an announcement is tonight at 9.30

alchemist33 · 18-04-2021 4:47pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Lawton_Times/status/1383799566361718784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1383799566361718784%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

If the "big 6" are forced to leave that kills the PL as a global interest league so hardly seems likely.

It would also mean big loss in revenue for the big 6 (TV and gate revenue from the domestic league and the UCL), and I don't think they could make up the shortfall in the new league.

Weepsie · 18-04-2021 4:48pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

There’s not enough tv eyes without the big 6 for sky or BT to pay anywhere near the money they are

They’ll just pay for the super league. And then the PL is in trouble

Depends. An awful lot of people will initially turn their back on the clubs. Particularly in a country as fractured as england since brexit. They'll eventually probably tune in, because that's what they do, and there'll be a scramble from overseas markets for the glitzy new comp, but could see clubs finding themselves are not getting the fans onside and it going awry

CSF · 18-04-2021 4:50pm

Think it’s extremely difficult to know how this will actually go. Everyone has an opinion but it’s truly uncharted waters.

Richard Hillman · 18-04-2021 4:51pm

If you swing in 100m subscribers at a paltry €10 a month, you're swinging in 1bn a month, 10bn a year (assuming they get 2 months off). The PL is something like 6bn over 3 years and has to he distributed between 20 teams, the lower leagues, grass roots footbal etc.

You'd have about 10bn a year split between 12 clubs, and they ain't sharing. And that's without league sponsorships etc. If you are young player like Phil Foden, Mason Greenwood, Erling Harland etc al, you'll be retiring as very very very rich men. They'll obviously have salary caps but they can collectively bargain percentages. They are the stars after all.

Morrison J · 18-04-2021 4:54pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

There’s not enough tv eyes without the big 6 for sky or BT to pay anywhere near the money they are

They’ll just pay for the super league. And then the PL is in trouble

Obviously tv money-wise they're going to take a major hit yeah but it's a hard one to fathom really until we see the logistics of the new league. Like realistically Spurs or Arsenal will have their seasons over after 4/5 games in this type of league. No relegation means if you're not in the title race your season is over. Once that happens I'd imagine more eyes would still turn back to the Premier League and it'll still draw decent numbers. I really don't think this european league will work as well as a product as they do. You need either relegation or a draft system like they have in the US to maintain some sort of competitive balance. League will be full of dead rubbers.

rob316 · 18-04-2021 4:54pm

Lol what an empty desperate threat banning clubs domestically. Who the **** would pay to watch the league's without the top teams and players?

Jimbob1977 · 18-04-2021 4:57pm

The joy of the Champions League was a big European night and the stadium hopping.

If you are playing these European clubs non-stop, the novelty wears thin

A United or Liverpool fan would be paying to fly to Rome and Istanbul every fortnight.

Harry Palmr · 18-04-2021 4:58pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

It would also mean big loss in revenue for the big 6 (TV and gate revenue from the domestic league and the UCL), and I don't think they could make up the shortfall in the new league.

Most recent figures I can find for PL based income is £152.4m that Liverpool earned a couple of seasons ago (2nd) the least ESL will make available is about the same as it happens, rising to over 220m for the winning side.

RoryMac · 18-04-2021 5:00pm

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

The joy of the Champions League was a big European night and the stadium hopping.

If you are playing these European clubs non-stop, the novelty wears thin

A United or Liverpool fan would be paying to fly to Rome and Istanbul every fortnight.

TBF the number of fans that travel to away games is tiny in comparison to the numbers watching.

I'd feel for the Spurs and Arsenal fans that will have to watch their teams getting tanked in most games

European Super League - plans announced

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