Online marking

km79 · 13-05-2019 8:59pm #1

Just got the circular regarding online marking of Biology (as well as Maths ,Chem,Phys,LCVP) and I am worried about one aspect of it and wonder how well thought out it is !
Students are advised to only use blue or black pen as red will not scan well . Pencil for diagrams. That’s all well and good for the languages
But in Biology the really diligent kids will go the extra mile and color in their diagrams . Am I now to tell them not to bother as it will not scan in properly anyway ??????

Aquals · 14-05-2019 6:42am

km79 wrote: »

Just got the circular regarding online marking of Biology (as well as Maths ,Chem,Phys,LCVP) and I am worried about one aspect of it and wonder how well thought out it is !
Students are advised to only use blue or black pen as red will not scan well . Pencil for diagrams. That’s all well and good for the languages
But in Biology the really diligent kids will go the extra mile and color in their diagrams . Am I now to tell them not to bother as it will not scan in properly anyway ??????

Apart from any of that, I’d tell them not to colour in as their time could be much better spent elsewhere on the paper! Colouring in is not a scientific skill - they can get marks for that in their art exam. Surely they’d be better off checking and refining their answers to improve accuracy?

km79 · 14-05-2019 7:03am

Aquals wrote: »

Apart from any of that, I’d tell them not to colour in as their time could be much better spent elsewhere on the paper! Colouring in is not a scientific skill - they can get marks for that in their art exam. Surely they’d be better off checking and refining their answers to improve accuracy?

They do get marks for presentation of diagram and most of them have loads and loads of time in the 3 hour exam
Most don’t bother putting any colour in . Some do. Some like to draw it using coloring pencils.
They shouldn’t be potentially penalized just to save the SEC money. Especially when they have only been told less than 4 weeks before the exam

thefasteriwalk · 14-05-2019 4:53pm

No, colour won’t show. Even the blue and black both turn into a kind of charcoal grey.

evolving_doors · 14-05-2019 6:51pm

Science students told today not to bother work colour as it wont come out.
Although you'd think that there would be no cost difference between a scanned colour image and b&w.
Maybe colour takes takes more virtual space!

km79 · 14-05-2019 7:41pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Science students told today not to bother work colour as it wont come out.
Although you'd think that there would be no cost difference between a scanned colour image and b&w.
Maybe colour takes takes more virtual space!

By whom ?
It’s ridiculously late in the day for this

I can’t find any info on sec site beyond 2017-18

spurious · 14-05-2019 9:32pm

Recent circular re exams
.pdf file
Don't know if there is anything more recent.

RealJohn · 16-05-2019 3:19pm

km79 wrote: »

They do get marks for presentation of diagram

Are you sure that it's marks for the presentation of the diagram, and not just marks for presenting a diagram? If it's the former, that's very unfair. It's a science exam, not an art exam.

It's news to me anyway. I've marked chemistry and junior science for many years and not a single mark was ever given for colouring in a diagram (unless that was specifically what was being asked - colour/shade the relevant section or something like that).

km79 · 16-05-2019 5:00pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Are you sure that it's marks for the presentation of the diagram, and not just marks for presenting a diagram? If it's the former, that's very unfair. It's a science exam, not an art exam.

It's news to me anyway. I've marked chemistry and junior science for many years and not a single mark was ever given for colouring in a diagram (unless that was specifically what was being asked - colour/shade the relevant section or something like that).

They are not required to color on diagram
What I meant was it makes it look better than one scrawled in black biro!
Prob makes no difference though

However when I do the 9:3:3:1 cross with them I had always used 4 diff colors for 4 diff genotypes/phenotypes
It made it very clear which was matched with which
Not a huge deal but it's something I had JUST revised with them and advised them to do if that question comes up (whixh is likely )

It is just ridiculously late in the year for this to be announced imo
And it's purely to save money

Purefrank128 · 16-05-2019 6:23pm

km79 wrote: »

They are not required to color on diagram
And it's purely to save money

How do you know? Or, rather, what makes you think that? The SEC's scanners will be able to scan in colour but things like gel-pens and high-lighters won't scan too well. So students are asked to use blue/black pen for text and pencil for graphs and diagrams. They are asked to do this so as to ensure that the examiner will be able to see their answer clearly. It doesn't save money.

Also, students were always asked to use blue or black pen in SEC exams, as other colours were for various ranks of examiners to use.

Is this really such a big deal for students? All they are being asked to do is use blue or black pen for answers using written text, as green and red may not scan as well. The move to marking on screen really doesn't affect students in the slightest.

km79 · 16-05-2019 6:31pm

Purefrank128 wrote: »

It doesn't save money

Is this really such a big deal for students?
The move to marking on screen really doesn't affect students in the slightest.

The move to online marking is totally about saving the SEC money . Think about it .

It was a big deal for my students when I told them about the changes less than a month before the exam they have spent 2 years preparing for

Yes. It is a significant change less than a month before their exam. They have done 2 mock exams for me . The answerbook is now different than these exams

But yeah it’s fine . A month out from their LC.
Totally acceptable . Won’t affect any of them at all
And if definitely won’t save the SEC any money.......

Purefrank128 · 16-05-2019 6:42pm

km79 wrote: »

The move to online The answerbook is now different than these exams

The SEC answerbook was always different to the ones schools used in "mocks". Also, so what? It's lined paper. They write on it, using the lines. This is such a big and unexpected trauma?

On money, examiners are getting the same payments. But do you have any idea what scanning and software development plus extra training might cost with the move it marking on screen?

km79 · 16-05-2019 6:49pm

Purefrank128 wrote: »

The SEC answerbook was always different to the ones schools used in "mocks". Also, so what? It's lined paper. They write on it, using the lines. This is such a big and unexpected trauma?

On money, examiners are getting the same payments. But do you have any idea what scanning and software development plus extra training might cost with the move it marking on screen?

The answer book for Biology is now different with a short questions and experiment now a detachable section apparently
I say apparently because schools have not been provided with a full sample
Just the generic long answer book for all sciences and maths

My mistake . I thought that the SEC had to reimburse examiners for their trips to the post office and the cost of the stamps . That must have been my imagination for the decade I corrected

But yeah it’s fine . One month before exam. Fine .
Ask your colleagues in the SEC/Dept in the morning why this couldn’t have been done in September ?

I won’t be responding to any more of your posts. You obviously feel very strongly on the issue that is not in any way linked to saving money seen as you went to the trouble of setting up an account especially to post on the topic ..........

Purefrank128 · 16-05-2019 7:16pm

km79 wrote: »

I won’t be responding to any more of your posts. You obviously feel very strongly on the issue that is not in any way linked to saving money.

I feel very strongly that you have no way of knowing whether or not you are right when you say that "it's purely to save money".

With marking on screen there should be less/no chance of an error in adding together the marks for each question, or in transferring the total mark to the results database, as these operations are done by computer. Surely the elimination of such marking errors is of benefit to everyone, especially the student, no?

But you are so certain that "it's purely to save money" that you are probably not able to acknowledge any of the benefits associated with this change.

Corkgirl18 · 16-05-2019 9:58pm

km79 wrote: »

It was a big deal for my students when I told them about the changes less than a month before the exam they have spent 2 years preparing for

Yes. It is a significant change less than a month before their exam. They have done 2 mock exams for me . The answerbook is now different than these exams

But yeah it’s fine . A month out from their LC.
Totally acceptable . Won’t affect any of them at all
And if definitely won’t save the SEC any money.......

I looked at the new system with my 6th years today and I definitely agree that it is an added stress, especially so close to the exams.

Some of mine are used to doing things like labeling their diagrams/their graph axes in red/green pen and many of them are used to writing more than one question per sheet of paper.
I also don't like the look of the graph paper given in the sample.
Its just adds more things that the students have to remember and be conscious of.
It would definitely have been an advantage to have this information before the pre exams.

km79 · 16-05-2019 10:02pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

I looked at the new system with my 6th years today and I definitely agree that it is an added stress, especially so close to the exams.

Some of mine are used to doing things like labeling their diagrams/their graph axes in red/green pen and many of them are used to writing more than one question per sheet of paper.
I also don't like the look of the graph paper given in the sample.
Its just adds more things that the students have to remember and be conscious of.
It would definitely have been an advantage to have this information before the pre exams.

There is massive graph paper every 4th page which is completely unnecessary for Biology !

Look at silly old us worrying about our students . What are we thinking !

solerina · 17-05-2019 3:59pm

km79 wrote: »

There is massive graph paper every 4th page which is completely unnecessary for Biology !

Look at silly old us worrying about our students . What are we thinking !

And totally inappropriate for Chemistry...proper graph paper would be preferable !! My students did not like hearing about the changes, some were quite stressed, and didn’t like not being able to use red pen when they have certain habits involving red pen on exams.

km79 · 17-05-2019 4:08pm

solerina wrote: »

And totally inappropriate for Chemistry...proper graph paper would be preferable !! My students did not like hearing about the changes, some were quite stressed, and didn’t like not being able to use red pen when they have certain habits involving red pen on exams.

I spoke with physics teacher today and her class
A couple of them are very stressed
Whether they should be or shouldn’t be this is the reality in the classroom
To be FRANK about it I wonder whether those exalting the virtues of it are current teachers at all as they can’t seem to grasp that introducing changes less than ONE MONTH before their exams is going to effect students

Random sample · 17-05-2019 4:08pm

For anyone marking online this year (or anyone who did it for French or English previously) is a 7 inch tablet big enough?

Corkgirl18 · 17-05-2019 4:41pm

solerina wrote: »

And totally inappropriate for Chemistry...proper graph paper would be preferable !! My students did not like hearing about the changes, some were quite stressed, and didn’t like not being able to use red pen when they have certain habits involving red pen on exams.

The graph paper is a bit ridiculous. Why the change? Its more difficult now to draw an accurate graph with those massive boxes!

km79 · 17-05-2019 5:09pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

The graph paper is a bit ridiculous. Why the change? Its more difficult now to draw an accurate graph with those massive boxes!

Less ink with the bugger squares saves money

I’m joking

Corkgirl18 · 17-05-2019 5:36pm

km79 wrote: »

Less ink with the bugger squares saves money

I’m joking

The scary thing is that this actually wouldn't surprise me!!

Purefrank128 · 17-05-2019 6:42pm

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

The graph paper is a bit ridiculous. Why the change? Its more difficult now to draw an accurate graph with those massive boxes!

The graph paper is 2 mm × 2 mm, as it always has been. The answerbook for Biology, Chemistry and Physics - including the graph paper pages - is on the SEC website.

Moody_mona · 18-05-2019 12:10am

Purefrank128 wrote: »

The graph paper is 2 mm × 2 mm, as it always has been. The answerbook for Biology, Chemistry and Physics - including the graph paper pages - is on the SEC website.

That looks great online, but the copy I got in school was woeful. If it looks like this on the day then that's fine!

km79 · 18-05-2019 8:34am

Moody_mona wrote: »

That looks great online, but the copy I got in school was woeful. If it looks like this on the day then that's fine!

He is also just continuing to ignore the fact the Biology paper itself has changed . Not just the answer book. Section A and B are now detachable apparently . Only a small change but a change nonetheless. And the first time the students (and teachers ) will see it will be on the day of the exam.
Again i ask why could these changes not have been made at start of year so students and teachers could use similar answer books and answer styles during house and mock exams ?

Purefrank128 · 18-05-2019 5:27pm

km79 wrote: »

He is also just continuing to ignore the fact the Biology paper itself has changed . Not just the answer book. Section A and B are now detachable apparently . Only a small change but a change nonetheless.

In 2018 Higher Level Biology Sections A and B were to be completed in the spaces provided in the question paper; Section C was to be completed on a blank answer book. The same applies in 2019. The Sections are worth the same numbers of marks and have the same Ievels of choice they always had.

There are small changes every year to exam papers. In recent years LC papers have moved to white inside pages rather than pink/blue. The font has changed from Times to Calibri. Do each of these changes require the kind of 12-month notice you are suggesting? There is no change to the structure or format of the Biology papers, nor the content on which it is based.

There must be bigger fish to fry (in education and life in general) than the slight variation in the lined paper and 2 mm × 2 mm graph paper given to exam candidates.

RealJohn · 20-05-2019 9:52am

km79 wrote: »

And it's purely to save money

Doing things "purely to save money" is fine, as long as there is no significant negative effect on the students, and I know they're all precious little snowflakes these days, but not being able to handle being told to use blue or black pens for a state exam is not something that should be considered a significant negative effect.

RealJohn · 20-05-2019 9:56am

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Some of mine are used to doing things like labeling their diagrams/their graph axes in red/green pen ...

They should also be used to their teachers (including, but not limited to you) telling them not to use red or green pen because that's what examiners use, even before scanning became an issue.

Mine have been hearing it from day 1 in first year, and some of them persist with the red and green anyway, but they can't say they weren't told.

spurious · 20-05-2019 10:43am

Red and green biro, tippex, those bloody highlighters...the list goes on. If the online marking in some subjects stops any of that nonsense it is well worth it.

Aquals · 21-05-2019 12:07am

And if it stops science teachers emphasising artistic skill, instead of scientific knowledge and problem solving ability, it will also be well worth it!

Lesson learned - dont have the kids colouring during exams in future!

happywithlife · 21-05-2019 8:19pm

Have been thinking about this thread in recent days. It is a bigger issue that does merit discussion.
In my subject - Home Ec - junior cert students are asked to sketch an outfit / household article as part of their exam (doesn't come every year mind) - if scanning comes in wholesale how will that work?
Secondly I mark LC but can't see myself continuing when online marking comes in. As it is I struggle to do the online paperwork at times due to a slow processor - my own, which my SEC work was a contributory factor in buying but being of the cohert of lower/part time hours payscale I had to shop within a limited budget & couldn't afford a higher spec. I simply cannot imagine doing all my marking online on it. Added to that unreliable broadband. Max speed I can get is about 2 MG (if thats the right terminology) - over the years I have tried to get alternative suppliers but when they input my eircode I'm told I'm not serviced so I'm stuck with the one supplier. Already we have to monitor device usage in the house when we are all here as it slows down too much. If I'm confined to certain times of access it may be problematic.
And I do think its unfair to throw any change like what is suggested for Biology at students on the day. It's not my area but are all teachers aware of the changes? Or just teachers who like those online here keep abreast of such things? I would hate to think any young person could be negatively affected on the day of a leaving cert exam over something unavoidable.

Random sample · 21-05-2019 10:10pm

The system allows for colour on pages where a diagram is expected, so it won’t be a problem for diagrams.

It really does seem very easy to use. There was a demo at the weekend for everyone using it this year, and it’s extremely user friendly.

They said you need at least 2meg, but even with less than that, you may just need to leave it to download for a while before starting to correct in the morning.

Admin work will be gone. No counting scripts, numbering them, picking a sample, counting up As, Bs, Ca, filling in scrud60s or filling in marking sheets.

We will get a chance to play with the programme later in the month, so I’ll find out then if my crappy laptop can handle it.

RealJohn · 21-06-2019 7:09pm

Random sample wrote: »

The system allows for colour on pages where a diagram is expected, so it won’t be a problem for diagrams.

This is correct, although it will depend on what the examination team decides is worthy of colour scanning. The scripts are not being scanned in black and white to save money, as was suggested earlier in the thread, it's to reduce the file size, so that the scripts can be downloaded faster, in case people are having difficulty with their broadband.

feardeas · 23-06-2019 9:53am

Have not marked in a good while. However taking all the admin out of it is a great idea. Wonder if the adv examiner can access the sample 20 and random samples as well. Assume they can. Could make going over things based on their advice easier as I heard individual questions can be accessed.

Broadband will be an obvious issue but surely in time people should be able to download at the conference. For me looking at a computer screen all day would be a pain.

Supervised this year. The new scripts were handy to work with and the students seemed very comfortable working with them.

RealJohn · 02-07-2019 8:51am

feardeas wrote: »

Wonder if the adv examiner can access the sample 20 and random samples as well. Assume they can. Could make going over things based on their advice easier as I heard individual questions can be accessed.

Advising examiners have access to every script their examiners have. It's handy for checking things, but I imagine it will be a headache for some, if they have examiners who want a lot of hand holding.

feardeas · 02-07-2019 8:58am

Advising examiners have access to every script their examiners have. It's handy for checking things, but I imagine it will be a headache for some, if they have examiners who want a lot of hand holding.[/quote]

That's for sure. It could very well be.

sullivlo · 02-07-2019 10:36am

My AE "took" 2 of my sample 20 for monitoring. I don't get them back and they are now responsible for any changes required to them going forward, for example a change in the structure of the marks for a specific question or accepting an additional response as a correct answer.

sullivlo · 03-07-2019 8:15pm

km79 wrote: »

Just got the circular regarding online marking of Biology (as well as Maths ,Chem,Phys,LCVP) and I am worried about one aspect of it and wonder how well thought out it is !
Students are advised to only use blue or black pen as red will not scan well . Pencil for diagrams. That’s all well and good for the languages
But in Biology the really diligent kids will go the extra mile and color in their diagrams . Am I now to tell them not to bother as it will not scan in properly anyway ??????

Just as an FYI -

I'm not sure if it's in all subjects or just mine, but some pages do scan in with colour. Not all of them, but some. Diagrams that are in colour have scanned in colour. I'm not sure if this is the case in biology too.

Also, I'm a biology teacher and I advise my students not to colour in their diagrams unless they have extra time at the end. There are no marks going for it and they'd be better off spending the 5 minutes answering additional section A/B questions.

Online marking

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