Armstrong 2019/20 season

spidersweb · 08-03-2020 5:20pm

cdeb wrote: »

Bray's request

I heard it was the request of Gonzaga to play two games in Belfast- good will gesture, but I might be misinformed.

cdeb · 08-03-2020 5:43pm

I don't see why Gonzaga would request that in fairness.

3 games were played as scheduled because Gonzaga only needed 5 players for the 4NCL. Bray were asked to nominate a venue/time (within reason) for the other games. Which seems a fair compromise in the circumstances.

VanMorrison · 08-03-2020 5:48pm

cdeb wrote: »

I don't see why Gonzaga would request that in fairness.

3 games were played as scheduled because Gonzaga only needed 5 players for the 4NCL. Bray were asked to nominate a venue/time (within reason) for the other games. Which seems a fair compromise in the circumstances.

This doesn't make sense. 4NCL was last weekend.

cdeb · 08-03-2020 5:53pm

Good point actually.

Still, the overall compromise I believe was that Bray got to choose date/venue for the postponed games, hence some being in Belfast (for Waters/Cairns I presume)

spidersweb · 08-03-2020 6:05pm

cdeb wrote: »

I don't see why Gonzaga would request that in fairness.

Good will gesture? Seen as they created the problem, along with the controllers who made a balls of it, but to their credit, and Gonzaga, they seem to be keen to make amends and be as fair as possible.

Good outcome for all concerned considering everything and hopefully lessons learned to avoid such things happening again. At the end of the day it comes down to mistakes by a few individuals, 2-4 at most. Human error fixed by humans.

cdeb · 08-03-2020 6:15pm

Well they agreed to it as a good-will gesture, rather than requested it. It was the leagues controller (being called upon to resign here by a small minority!) who ended up brokering the deal.

spidersweb · 08-03-2020 6:33pm

cdeb wrote: »

Well they agreed to it as a good-will gesture, rather than requested it. It was the leagues controller (being called upon to resign here by a small minority!) who ended up brokering the deal.

Small minority calling for the resignation of the controllers? (Totally untrue, fabrication or figment of your imagination- unless I am overlooking some posts here. feel free to direct me to them) What on earth do you mean? There was only ever a single poster in this very long thread that called for that, none agreed or condoned that, or some of the over the top borderline abuse.

He (Van The Man) could be dismissed as being angry and frustrated I guess and not taking seriously to judge by the responses.

The fact is, that they (controllers) made a balls of it and this has correctly raised concerns and asked questions about how they went about things. At least lessons can be learned.

The further fact that they are now cleaning up their mess also means they deserve credit for that, as do Gonzaga, who were much maligned when the reality is that it was not a Gonzaga club matter, so much as an individual or two, who in turn do more good much more of the time anyway.

Main thing is that it is being sorted in a good spirit of fairness.

cdeb · 08-03-2020 6:41pm

spidersweb wrote: »

Small minority calling for the resignation of the controllers? (Totally untrue, fabrication or figment of your imagination- unless I am overlooking some posts here. feel free to direct me to them) What on earth do you mean? There was only ever a single poster in this very long thread that called for that, none agreed or condoned that, or some of the over the top borderline abuse.

Sounds like a small minority to me.

spidersweb · 08-03-2020 6:48pm

cdeb wrote: »

Sounds like a small minority to me.

Sounds like a solitary lone voice to me.

spidersweb · 09-03-2020 12:49am

checknraise wrote: »

Anchor has made lots of sensible points in the thread and its hard to disagree with anything he has written.

Agree that Anchor has indeed made many very good points in the post that was made, but it would be easy to also not only disagree with some minor things he wrote, but also easy to point out some factual errors and refute some (not many) misguided notions too.

However, overall it is not worth the bother as the gist of it, and much of the details, were very good.

checknraise wrote: »

The 4ncl should not be prioritised over the Armstrong

Sorry but this is just weird. Thanks for allowing people think it ok NOT to prioritize the 4NCL,the 5 NCL,the 99 NCL, the Bundesleague. The French National Leagues or perhaps even the Siberian Armstrongsky Cup too, over the LCU Armstrong Cup, here in Leinster, Ireland.

checknraise wrote: »

but I do believe the Armstrong should try to avoid fixtures clashes in the future.

Sorry but this seems so wrong. Have you really learned so little from this thread and the whole mess of issues involved?

I think your belief is not only misguided but makes little sense at all surely? The Armstrong Cup and all LCU Leagues should only organize and concern itself with the needs and wants of the LCU clubs, players and national chess life, and chess federation of and within Ireland- period!

If there are any select interests of a tiny number of players and clubs within the LCU Leagues, who wish to make special representations, and try change the function and focus of the LCU, and or it's Leagues, then they can feel free to do so through the due processes available. Like at an AGM.

I suspect that about 99% of people playing chess in the LCU leagues would find it strange and totally irrelevant to them to even think outside of getting through their own season, and as such, be against any such moves made in that direction. In short, what happens in the Leagues, of another province, let alone country, are irrelevant. Doubtless Munster Leagues have fixtures that clash with LCU fixtures too.

checknraise wrote: »

All of Irelands best players have played in the 4ncl over the years and it should be encouraged as they get opportunities to play much stronger opposition compared to what they would in Ireland .

I think you are just wrong again. and it is still totally irrelevant anyway. Vast majority of "Irelands best players" have never played, and never will play in the 4NCL,the 5 NCL,the 99 NCL, the Bundesleague. The French National Leagues, or perhaps even the Siberian Armstrongsky Cup too.

A tiny selection of individuals and two clubs have participated in the aforementioned 4 NCL. Very nice that is, but what has that to do with the Armstrong Cup, unless a very small and selective number of people wish to make it an issue? Best of luck at the AGM with this topic.

Enniscorthy CC managed to also play there too, but do they not count somehow, because they are not among "Irelands best players" ? Clubs and players are answerable to themselves. They can encourage each other to their hearts content.

It would not matter either way anyway. The LCU Leagues are not about "Irelands best players" no more than they are about any special self designated group of players and individuals. How about the Irish left handed players? More of them playing the the LCU Leagues than Irish based players playing in the4 NCL.

Players of varying playing strength play in all Leagues, including the 4 NCL and LCU leagues, one has nothing to do with the other. Individuals and clubs are free to participate in whatever events they like. Nice to see alright, but nothing more.

checknraise wrote: »

In the last few years there have been players from Gonzaga, Elm Mount, Balbriggan, Trinity, Bray, Dublin and Kilkenny. Thats nearly every club in the Armstrong.

So what? Again I doubt your numbers. A handful (or two?) at most overall, and outside of Gonzaga (a handful, maybe two) there is then Elm Mount 1 player, Balbriggin 2 players (starting this year only) Trinity maybe 1-2 ever? Bray Zero?, Dublin zero, maybe 1? Kilkenny 1-2 if ever maybe?

While individuals have played in the 4 NCL who also play in the Armstrong Cup, none have made it an issue, or any sort of clash or conflict. They just played in whatever matches they wanted.

But regardless, this has never been an issue or concern of anybody playing in the LCU Leagues as they have worked around the assumption that the LCU Leagues have nothing to do with other Leagues. Players can make their own choices, fulfill their club obligations in the Armstrong as suits and have no relevance to the fixtures of another League.

Plenty of opportunities for players of all strengths to play against players of all strengths throughout the LCU Leagues. What happens in other Leagues is irrelevant, especially those in another country. Choice is the key word.

checknraise wrote: »

February is the most congested time of year for fixtures as clubs are having to fit in 3 league matches plus Bunratty.

Agreed, which is why it is madness to even consider things outside of Ireland and the purview of the LCU and ICU. The only exception that is ever made that I am aware of, is where a player is on representative duty for Ireland in an official and team capacity, like an Olympiad. Exceedingly rare but it does happen.

checknraise wrote: »

On the Balbriggan/Kilkenny match I imagine it wouldn't have been possible to play in advance. Rating lists are now published monthly so its important to play and rate in the month which I am sure will be the case.

All the more reason why the fixture list should not be changed and clubs and their players stay within the rules and play fixtures on the set date, or well in advance, when and where possible.

In order to keep thinks working well, even mutually agreed change of dates, for games between players, should always be in advance, notwithstanding there might be the odd and rare exception in which players and a club are content to accommodate each other with more flexibility.

One prolonged "adjournment" already resulted in a null and void game within a match. Thankfully this has not happened again with this same player after the mutually agreed change of dates for two games between Kilkenny and Balbriggin was played within a short period, and won't impact them being Fide rated in time either.

checknraise wrote: »

The Balbriggan players are Irelands most promising players and just want to play chess.

Not strictly true, they are AMONG Irelands most promising players for sure, but we have many others too. These two players, as it happens, have received nothing but adulation and encouragement, and rightly so.

They are indeed among Irelands most promising juniors and exciting prospects for sure, but we don't wont to facilitate or encourage any practice or tendency towards special selective treatment, and or cliques, just because certain players find themselves playing for the same team in a foreign League for example. That is also unfair to such young players too, and in the case of these two particular juniors they are, by all accounts, great kids.

Would you be more or less inclined to focus on preferential treatment and attention to and for players on your own team, or club, or not in your club, and not on the same team as you? This is a question we could all ask of ourselves.

checknraise wrote: »

I don't think its fair to bring them or Balbriggan club into the matter.

The only poster being so unfair as to bring these two players into this matter is curiously enough yourself (unintentionally I assume). The players are utterly irrelevant to the issues. Might as well be Carlsen or and Kasparov for all it matters. Same could be said of any of the players playing in the league. The issue is about clubs, captains and controllers. The players are all entirely innocent and frankly irrelevant.

What is relevant, is the fact that the club in question, Balbriggin happens to be the same club as the controller and he is a team member of the Armstrong Cup Balbriggin team, who changed the fixtures and gave the reason for doing so because of a problem with the venue, as opposed to the date itself.

While at the same time there is the suggestion, and some evidence, to support the claim that this was not the real or full reason for the change of fixtures. None of us know the exact details of this murky aspect with any degree of certainty.

So, there was a change which facilitated and enabled Gonzaga field players in the 4 NCL, on the same date as the match with Bray was supposed to take place, and then funnier still, two players from the same club as the controller, who were also playing for Gonzaga in the 4 NCL, had their games "adjourned" to play on different dates, instead of the set fixture dates, when all other six games from this match were played on the set fixture date.

At least that was with the mutual agreement of Kilkenny and Balbriggin, with those games played quickly. Hilariously enough, in Gonzaga along side the 3 Bray V Gongzaga games apparently!

Proving that clubs within our LCU Leagues can, and will, accommodate each other with practical help, when the need arises. Full credit to Gonzaga for that.

Pointing all these things out, expressing concerns and asking questions is a healthy way to clear the air, and have transparency, trust, plus confidence which helps to avoid such situations from recurring again.

It seems like all concerned have gone on to make a great effort to sort things out with a fair and amicable resolution to the matte.

I think the two controllers and Gonzaga CC, along with Bray, all deserve credit, and appreciation, for dealing with the matter.

spidersweb · 09-03-2020 1:12am

DancingSpaniel wrote: »

Sorry if this is off topic, but is there a maximum post length on boards.ie? Just popped into my head for some reason.

I think it might be for people who have only managed 6 post ever on boards.ie. Nobody forces people to read any post apparently. You can ignore any and all posts at will. Amazing technology.

checknraise · 09-03-2020 11:39am

Having read the point's on fixtures made in the thread I agree and I think if clubs want to play 4ncl they should look to have their fixtures played midweek.

I do think you are underestimating the number of Irish/Armstrong players playing 4ncl currently. If you look at the top 32 players 20 have played 4ncl in the last few years. A few would not be Armstrong players so are not affected but a large portion of our best players do actively play.

Elm Mount 2 - Shane played last weekend for the Celtic Tigers and got a great draw with black vs GM Nick Pert. David is a regular 4ncl player got at least one of his norms at the 4ncl.

Bray - De Verdier is a regular enough player for Wood Green.

Trinity - 4 have played for Gonzaga's 4ncl team over the last few years and 1 played for Cheddleton this year.

Your average chess player does not care about 4ncl results and why should they. The 4ncl is just a regular team tournament. What the 4ncl is though is an opportunity for our players to test themselves against some of the best players in world. Experience that is not possible by playing in the Armstrong.

spidersweb · 09-03-2020 5:37pm

checknraise wrote: »

Having read the point's on fixtures made in the thread I agree and I think if clubs want to play 4ncl they should look to have their fixtures played midweek.

I do think you are underestimating the number of Irish/Armstrong players playing 4ncl currently. If you look at the top 32 players 20 have played 4ncl in the last few years. A few would not be Armstrong players so are not affected but a large portion of our best players do actively play.

Elm Mount 2 - Shane played last weekend for the Celtic Tigers and got a great draw with black vs GM Nick Pert. David is a regular 4ncl player got at least one of his norms at the 4ncl.

Bray - De Verdier is a regular enough player for Wood Green.

Trinity - 4 have played for Gonzaga's 4ncl team over the last few years and 1 played for Cheddleton this year.

Your average chess player does not care about 4ncl results and why should they. The 4ncl is just a regular team tournament. What the 4ncl is though is an opportunity for our players to test themselves against some of the best players in world. Experience that is not possible by playing in the Armstrong.

Don't disagree substantially with what you are saying at all, but just the emphasis and scale.

I stand corrected on the numbers of players who have played from the Armstrong so thanks for setting me straight on that. Though I still contend the numbers are very small and very few games played.

Shane I overlooked but he has just started now so I think that is two games ever.David been playing for years and indeed got his IM title norms entirely from the 4 NCL, but never with a conflict or issue with his Armstrong games, because my point is just, that one has nothing to do with the other, and it should stay this way.

Michael De Verdier and Colm Daly for Bray sees two games played by the later (more than two decades ago in the 1990s) and the former not playing any games since last season with a total of 12 games played ever. Again all unconnected with the Armstrong

The likes of Trinity I don't know about other than Karl Mc Phillips plays in, and has played in the 4 NCL and Kilkenny too, but yet again unconnected with the Armstrong.

I understand what you are saying about the 4 NCL being an opportunity to play more international games with the chance to play even stronger players more often and I agree that is great. I like to see Irish players playing there and see it as only a good thing.

Though again I would also contend that there are plenty of chances for Irish players to play in events and against very strong players IM and GM levels here in Ireland. Ironically in large part because of the excellent work and activities emanating from Gonzaga CC as a great hub and catalyst of chess growth and development in Ireland.

Particular credit has to also go to the former ICU Chairman who has done so much fantastic work in respect of the norm events and making the Irish Ch also so much stronger and interesting in recent years. The sheer volume of strong players is such that there is never a shortage of tough games.

Plenty of strong international level players playing in Ireland and the Armstrong Cup no less so. I would like to keep it that way and encourage more players to play in the LCU leagues and see any action that would , however unintentionally, deflect or distract from that as a bad development.

For example, people giving priority to any other league anywhere else. That is the core of my concern. Not to be in any way critical or fail to support the fine efforts of fellow chess players wanting to be more active internationally seek to play even more stronger players. That should be indeed applauded and encouraged. Just never at the expense of the LCU leagues and the Armstrong Cup in particular.

VanMorrison · 10-03-2020 9:05pm

Are ye all not overlooking a rather obvious point?

The Gonzo A Captain could have easily changed the Gonzaga A v Bray fixture anywhere between October and December if he'd just asked. He waited until 10 days before the fixture before realizing there was a problem.

<snip>

There really is no problem accommodating both the 4NCL and the newly established Enterprise League (Dublin to Belfast, get it?) <snip>.

Mod edit - personal abuse removed

macelligott · 15-03-2020 10:14am

I wonder will the last two rounds of the Armstrong have to be played after Easter?
It might be worth considering playing both rounds on the same day - one in the morning and one in the evening!

cdeb · 15-03-2020 11:10am

If the final round of the leagues go ahead as scheduled - and that's obviously completely up in the air at this stage - then the venue (Coláiste Éanna) is probably big enough to allow for hosting two rounds of Divs 1-4 alright. That would put big pressure on clubs for subs of course - but in the greater scheme of things, so what?

The BEA/Bodley would only have play-off involvement on the final day normally, but in this instance they'd probably have to try squeeze in for their final rounds and have the play-offs after. Or if there's no room, they may have to just play on a home/away basis as normal.

All completely dependent on the next two weeks of course. The effective lockdown is until 29th March. Signs from Europe are that this is getting worse, not better, so it'd quite possible the lockdown will be extended. So we'll just have to wait and see.

RooksPawn · 15-03-2020 1:54pm

I can't believe some people are still talking about playing chess face to face in the foreseeable future.
Starting tomorrow, from what i hear on the radio, thousands of less-sick patients are going to be moved from hospitals to these temporary wards that are being set up at Templemore etc, to make room for Covid-19 patients.
By the time of the scheduled last round of the Armstrong, there could be more Covid-19 patients than the HSE can manage.

Maybe the pandemic will peak before the Irish Championships but I think every over-the-board chess event up to the end of May (at least) could be cancelled now.

It's to early to know whether the Irish Championships can be played in July.

The good news is that the Candidates tournament starts on Tuesday (11 am I think) and can be watched online, so chess players are a lot better served than fans of other sports.

sodacat11 · 15-03-2020 2:08pm

I can't see chess or other sports returning to normal within the next six months and even then what we consider to be "normal" could be a lot different to how we understand it now. I'm surprised but glad that the Candidates is going ahead, with no sport to watch or think about at least that will be something to occupy me. I am not expecting to return to work until September at the earliest.

pdemp · 15-03-2020 2:33pm

macelligott wrote: »

I wonder will the last two rounds of the Armstrong have to be played after Easter?
It might be worth considering playing both rounds on the same day - one in the morning and one in the evening!

Easter 2021?

macelligott · 22-03-2020 8:54am

If all the remaining games in the Armstrong are to be cancelled, I think the team leading at present - Elm Mount - should be awarded the trophy forthwith!

Danville · 22-03-2020 11:31am

macelligott wrote: »

If all the remaining games in the Armstrong are to be cancelled, I think the team leading at present - Elm Mount - should be awarded the trophy forthwith!

I agree , but only to help you start the discussion, which should be very entertaining!
I never had you down as somebody with a death wish.

DmanDmythDledge · 22-03-2020 11:43am

I don't forsee any issues finishing the leagues, albeit it could be July or August until they are.

cdeb · 22-03-2020 11:59am

The main problem really is not knowing when all this will be over.

It obviously looks almost certain that the government restrictions will remain in place beyond 29th March. But in theory they could be lifted by 26th April, which is when the last round of the leagues are scheduled. I don't think they will, but in theory it could be possible to play rounds 10/11 on that day.

But it could go on through May/Jun/Jul as well. In that case, do we try to play the last two rounds in August, so we're ready for the new season in September? But another factor then is - if there's a 3-month lockdown, do people really want to come out of that and start giving up Saturdays on chess when there's family to catch up with instead?

You could abandon the leagues as are (I imagine Gonzaga will pay their ICU fees!

) - but how do you decide the BEA South, where three clubs are on the exact same percentage in the race for second place, two of whom have a match in hand on the third, and two of whom have to play each other? You could do like the pools do and predict the results of the outstanding matches based on typical board strength. But it's likely there won't be a particularly satisfying solution unfortunately. And that's probably ok, as it's only a game in the end of the day.

Ultimately, the main factor is that we just don't know how things are going to look in a week's time, let alone a month's time or two months' time. Until things start to clear up, no decision can really be made.

In the meantime, if clubs and members are interested, there is the option of setting up online club events to complement the ICU's events. Obviously the latter are a great initiative, but there's space as well for some club tournaments to keep a bit of club spirit going as well.

DmanDmythDledge · 22-03-2020 12:17pm

The lockdown will certainly go on until the end of May I reckon. The government were aware it would go beyond 29 March when the initial announcement was made but did not want to cause hysteria by announcing a longer one.

The test results are misleading at the moment. Most getting test results now would have started developing symptoms before the lockdown. And plenty of social gatherings etc since then, even up to yesterday. The curve is nowhere near flattened. (The danger is also people will think it is and everywhere should reopen).

Best way to finish the leagues, as someone previously suggested here, is to play it over a weekend. If it doesn't suit some, teams have declared subs. Would probably have the least disruption on players. If played as arranged games, there would be no issues delaying the start of 2020/21 season by c. a month. There's enough gaps in the scheduling this time of year to make up for time.

cdeb · 22-03-2020 12:28pm

Yeah, I think we all expected this to go on longer than 29th March alright.

But the question is - where is the end point in all this? It's not enough for Irish cases to go down to zero for fourteen days. It'll just come back again once travel to the US/Britain/Italy wherever starts up again (South Korea is seeing this now). To get herd immunity - which is what our plan is, albeit by flattening the curve compared to Britain/the US doing it all at once - 60% or so of people need to be infected. That's 3 million people, and at the current rate of 100 per day (albeit that cases diagnosed isn't necessarily the same as actual cases in Ireland), it'd take 80 years to reach that level. Even at 10,000 people a day, it's ten months. A vaccine is supposed to be a year off, though some are already in trials.

So we can speculate, but really beyond putting a timeframe on when a decision on abandoning/adjudicating the leagues has to be made - and I think that could wait until the end of July anyway - then there really isn't a lot that can practically be done at this stage.

macelligott · 22-03-2020 12:33pm

That's 3 million people, and at the current rate of 100 per day (albeit that cases diagnosed isn't necessarily the same as actual cases in Ireland), it'd take 80 years to reach that level. Even at 10,000 people a day, it's ten months. A vaccine is supposed to be a year off, though some are already in trials.
.[/quote]

Wrong! The growth is exponential. At this rate we will have 100,000 cases in 3 weeks. Cases doubling every 3 days!

cdeb · 22-03-2020 1:01pm

I know that - that's why I went up to 10k cases/day, to try take that into account. It's way too early to tell if the trend of the past while will continue into the future (Italy is going up 50% for every three days for example, although that assumes their figures are reliable, which they're almost certainly not, and it's not yet two weeks since lockdown was implemented). And even then 100k cases is still only 3% of what's expected. On the strict mathematical basis of cases doubling every three days, 3,000,000 cases would be reached at the end of April, but immunity/self-isolation would have kicked in by then to slow things down.

But I'm not trying to write a maths paper here - the point is that this is going to last a good while, and what we're seeing now will bear no resemblance to what we see in a couple of weeks, so there's no way we can make any sort of decision now on something as trite as the leagues, other than to put a vague line in the sand as to when to make a formal decision on abandoning.

DmanDmythDledge · 22-03-2020 2:10pm

It is impossible to know when it's going to end but I think it's reasonably known (or should be) that we won't be out of a lockdown by end of May.

cdeb · 22-03-2020 2:32pm

That certainly seems a reasonable assumption at the moment alright

spidersweb · 22-03-2020 11:24pm

Chess is going to be the least of people's concerns or interests. It is the end of the world as we know it.

Joedryan · 25-03-2020 8:26pm

spidersweb wrote: »

Chess is going to be the least of people's concerns or interests. It is the end of the world as we know it.

Perhaps a slight exaggeration?

But I take your point.

spidersweb · 25-03-2020 9:33pm

Joedryan wrote: »

Perhaps a slight exaggeration?

But I take your point.

I was half joking of course, yet it is hard to know if we are living in an episode of the Twilight Zone and we might all wake on on April 1 and discover this was all a bad joke?

sodacat11 · 26-03-2020 12:13pm

spidersweb wrote: »

Chess is going to be the least of people's concerns or interests. It is the end of the world as we know it.

Many a true word is spoken in jest. I think that the world as we know it will change hugely when this crisis is over. We don't know yet what the full impact will be socially and financially and how our behaviour will change in the future. I am not religious in any way but I do marvel at the power of Nature and the way that everything within it is constantly changing and evolving. The earth's population has been growing out of control in recent years, I think that this virus and the many more that will undoubtedly follow is simply nature's way of restoring the balance.

macelligott · 06-04-2020 3:20pm

No word from the LCU about the leagues. I suppose it’s difficult for them to make any decisions without more information. I still think they should just award the Armstrong cup to Elm Mount now :-)

cdeb · 06-04-2020 3:49pm

What is there to say?

While the lockdown continues, the leagues can't resume.

The next season is due to start in October, so there's plenty of time yet to finish the season. But it all depends on issues far, far beyond the LCU's control

mikhail · 06-04-2020 7:34pm

I agree: the only sensible decision the LCU can make for now is a waiting move.

DmanDmythDledge · 06-04-2020 10:24pm

cdeb wrote: »

What is there to say?

While the lockdown continues, the leagues can't resume.

The next season is due to start in October, so there's plenty of time yet to finish the season. But it all depends on issues far, far beyond the LCU's control

Yep. If it means Rounds 10 & 11 roll into the new season I don't think there's much wrong with that. Just give reasonable time for clubs to finalise teams & LCU to draft fixtures.

cdeb · 12-04-2020 10:28am

Further restrictions in place until the May Bank Holiday weekend, so obviously that means the last round of the leagues won't be going ahead as scheduled now.

There's a hint that some slight lifting of restrictions may happen after that. Obviously would have to wait and see what that is, but it could potentially be enough to allow league games to resume again, but the final rounds may have to be played on a home/away basis if there was still a narrow (e.g. 50) limit on public gatherings.

If that were to happen, then of course some players may opt to not play anyway, and that'd be understandable. It may be that, in that scenario, some clubs would end up having to field weaker teams than normal. Ultimately, there really is no satisfactory outcome to all of this. And the above is only speculation based on what might happen; we really still have to wait and see.

DmanDmythDledge · 12-04-2020 8:56pm

I think given the age profile of a number of players (60+) any chess events should be postponed until almost the last phase of restrictions being lifted, i.e. when pubs, restaurants etc are allowed reopen.

RooksPawn · 12-06-2020 8:37pm

When is the LCU going to take a decision about closing out the 2019/20 leagues?

cdeb · 12-06-2020 8:41pm

There is still little that can be done. Games can't resume this month while the 20km distance is in place. And who knows what changes will have taken place by the end of the month (in terms of phases being brought forward, or hygiene requirements for playing chess, etc)

It is still possible to finish the leagues in one weekend in one venue as late as September and have a new season start on time, so there's no immediate rush to make a decision on the leagues. Probably seeing how (if) the Irish Championships go in August is the first step, as that'll indicate what appetite there is for resumption right now.

Clubs have been contacted and the general view is not to abandon the season if possible.

bduffy · 12-06-2020 8:56pm

cdeb wrote: »

Clubs have been contacted and the general view is not to abandon the season if possible.

Is that just Div 1 clubs? I haven't heard anything as club secretary or Div 2 captain.

cdeb · 12-06-2020 8:58pm

Hmm. The LCU secretary contacted a lot of clubs in May about it - just to get the general feeling around the clubs (not just Div 1)

It may be the mailing list is incomplete - worth dropping a line to see if you/your club are on it maybe?

bduffy · 12-06-2020 9:55pm

cdeb wrote: »

Hmm. The LCU secretary contacted a lot of clubs in May about it - just to get the general feeling around the clubs (not just Div 1)

It may be the mailing list is incomplete - worth dropping a line to see if you/your club are on it maybe?

I get Arthur's emails regularly, but the last one was in March in relation to the Leagues being suspended. Nothing since.... I'll investigate further, as suggested.

cdeb · 16-08-2020 12:56pm

There was a circular sent out by the LCU to all 33 clubs earlier this month on the issues faced with regards resuming the leagues, with a suggestion clubs bring it to the attention of their members. I've copied it below.

Clubs were also asked if their venues were currently open; 9 clubs replied, and only 1 of those have access to their venue at present.

So it appears that the only way to continue the leagues at the moment is by arranging games at a central venue - but there's currently a 50-person limit on indoor gatherings, and the Armstrong (for example) is 96 players (plus arbiter). The full leagues require 530 players. To complete the leagues in central venues with a 50-person limit would require a lot of venues, and the logistics would probably be awkward too (players from the same family going to different venues, volunteers bringing equipment to each venue (assuming some clubs can't access their sets if they're in their venues which are closed), arbiters potentially required for each venue, etc), not to mention the current lockdown issue which is affecting Curragh and Celbridge.

The limit on indoor gatherings is due to increase to 100 people on 31st August, but that's already been postponed twice, and with 200 cases yesterday alone, it looks like it will probably be postponed again.

The circular is below -

Leinster Leagues
The Leinster Leagues remain on hold. It is our intention to finish the current season, in line with the views of the majority of the LCU clubs polled in May. However, the health and safety of all players has to be our main concern.

We do see that the leagues, on their return, would have a similar setup to the Irish Championships (see ICU site here). We are liaising with the ICU as regards logistics and feedback from the event.

Our view at present is that, even if clubs have full access to their venues, the requirements would likely be too onerous for individual clubs to host matches, and that games would take place at a central location. At present a maximum of 50 people are permitted to gather at an indoor event. This was due to rise to 100 if Phase 4 of the Government roadmap came into effect as planned on 10th August; however, the Government have decided to push this decision back to 31st August. Even then, this will only allow one division to take place at a time (there are 96 players in the Armstrong/Heidenfeld).

So at present, the best way of concluding the leagues appears to be a double-header (rounds 10 and 11) for each individual division on individual days. We could host games in a smaller venue by prioritising only the games which can impact the top/bottom of the table and leave dead matches unplayed, though we would prefer for all clubs to finish out their seasons. We are aware there are some players who are unable to play weekend league games, that some players may not feel comfortable playing chess in the current times, and indeed that some round 8 matches remain outstanding. So while we appreciate that this solution will inconvenience some players and clubs, unfortunately there does not appear to be a workable alternative at present.

In order to begin planning for this option, the LCU require progression to Phase 4 of the Government’s roadmap, and positive feedback from the upcoming Irish Championships. Given ongoing doubts over the former, it is quite likely the league season will not be able to resume even in September.

2020/21 season
In a best case – and unlikely – scenario, the 2019/20 season could in theory conclude by the end of October, assuming sufficient venues could be found. In reality, it will probably start later than that. It is quite possible the new season will not start until the new year.

We envisage that the ICU’s covid setup noted above will have to continue for the foreseeable future. As such, it may be that the format of the 2020/21 season will again be a series of centrally-played double-headers by division (i.e. rounds 1 and 2 of the Armstrong one weekend, rounds 1 and 2 of the Heidenfeld the next weekend, etc). If it is not possible to play two rounds on the same day (which would require two venues, two arbiters, two sets of volunteers to set up, potentially two members of the same family playing in different venues, etc), then this would require 36 different days.

This season format would probably last longer than usual, and it appears quite probable that the LCU will only be able to arrange two league seasons between 2019 and 2022.

We would note of course that all of the above is subject to change based on future developments.

LCU AGM
We are looking at a date for the 2020 LCU AGM – however, we would like more clarity on league options before convening it. We envisage the AGM may well be held remotely via Zoom or a similar platform.

Online chess
In the meantime, we would strongly encourage clubs to engage in some of the many online chess events which are on at present. While they aren’t a true substitute for the real over-the-board game, they are a way of keeping club members engaged during this difficult period. In particular, we note –

• The ICU are running a team 3+2 blitz tournament on lichess.org each Friday from 7:00 to 8:30pm; links are available on the ICU website early each week. This week’s tournament is here.
• The 4NCL are taking entries for the second season of the 4NCL Online, with teams of 4 and a time control of 45 + 15. Matches are every second Tuesday at 7:30pm on lichess.org. You can enter a team here (deadline is next week).
• Clubs can arrange their own regular blitz events on sites such as lichess as well, and can restrict these to club members by means of a password
• Online sites also permit an online club championships with a longer time control, including standard time controls of 90+15. Clubs would need to be able to arrange the draw, and after that players can challenge each other on a designated online club night
• For a longer time control still, a site like gameknot.com is an excellent platform for a correspondence club championship, with time controls of many days per move
• Video conferencing software such as Zoom would also allow clubs to arrange online lectures by more experienced club members if they wished

Note as well the City of Dublin tournament will be held in Coláiste Éanna on the last week in September. Details are here. In particular, note that restrictions (on entry, and on the attendance of non-players such as parents, who would count towards any capacity limit) may change in line with national developments.

sodacat11 · 18-08-2020 8:51pm

The new measures introduced by the government today probably knock on the head any chance of finishing the leagues, we will be lucky if the City of Dublin is able to go ahead.

cdeb · 18-08-2020 9:23pm

I guess technically there'd be no spectators as such, and there's nothing mentioned about changing the limit of 50 people indoors I think? Could be wrong though.

Certainly means the leagues can't resume alright. I think worst case is the leagues will remain in stasis until normality resumes; there seems no point writing them off when there's just two rounds to go because that could be finished over a weekend in theory.

anchor4208 · 18-08-2020 9:55pm

cdeb wrote: »

I guess technically there'd be no spectators as such, and there's nothing mentioned about changing the limit of 50 people indoors I think? Could be wrong though.

Unfortunately for us, the indoor limit has been reduced from 50 to just 6. The Irish Major this weekend will have to be called off, and there's no prospect of any OTB chess at all until things improve.

sodacat11 · 18-08-2020 10:15pm

cdeb wrote: »

I guess technically there'd be no spectators as such, and there's nothing mentioned about changing the limit of 50 people indoors I think? Could be wrong though.

Certainly means the leagues can't resume alright. I think worst case is the leagues will remain in stasis until normality resumes; there seems no point writing them off when there's just two rounds to go because that could be finished over a weekend in theory.

Numbers at indoor events have been restricted to six people. I suppose we can have six player all play alls with no arbiter present but that's about it.

FutureCM · 19-08-2020 8:57am

Might sound ridiculous, but if the forecast is good would an outdoor venue be an option to avoid the 6 person limit?

Armstrong 2019/20 season

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